Anti-War Demonstration in NYC & around the world - 2/15/03

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:10 pm

This pretty long, but makes you feel as if you were there

Here's the best report yet of what happened yesterday:

F15 11:25am At the Public Library: Approximately 1,000 people at the library. There are between 100-200 police in full riot gear, some with batons drawn, standing in the second lane of 5th Avenue. People are leaving in small groups, but no organized mach has yet left the library.
F15 11:39am We have word that the Youth Bloc was the march that moved west from Union Square, not east. They marched towards 6th ave. and then north. At 23d st and 6th ave, police moved in and pushed the march back east. There are several mounted police, 15 vans vans, and several buses. At 24th st, the march was cut in half by police.
F15 11:47am Youth Bloc Update: several hundred people penned in by police at 24th st between 5th and 6th ave. One-hundred police and 15 or more mounted police. There have been several arrests. Police are letting people out five at a time. The march is on the sidewalk. The marchers are chanting "The whole world is watching, they are on our side."
F15 11:53am Police have confirmed arrests at Union Square. No numbers given by police.
F15 12:00pm From the rally: There are large numbers of people turning out in the bitter cold, and it is difficult to estimate numbers. At least ten blocks are packed in outside the Dag Hammarskjold plaza.
F15 12:02pm If you are heading to the rally from the west side of Manhattan, you should attempt to get there above 55th st. It will be difficult to get there otherwise. There are large numbers of protesters heading north past 51st and Lexington.
F15 12:06pm Update from Youth Bloc at 24th St and 6th: 300-400 protesters remained penned in, on the sidewalk not being allowed to move. Approximately 200 police, 3 deep for an entire block. Possibility that mass arrests will be made soon
12:32 Police are making it very difficult for protesters to get to the rallly; they are requiring people to go further and further north.
12:38 The Labor March marching from 59th street is back on the sidewalk. The police have broken it in half.
12:41 "3rd avenue and 58th is ours!" says one caller. From 57th to 58th is completely full. There are no protest pens on third avenue. There are groups up third avenue as far north as 72nd street.
1:07 There is a march occuring on 3d avenue; people are trying to get to the protest and are moving north. 1:00pm. A report just came in that 2nd Ave. is “a sea of humanity” protesters have taken over half the avenue and more people are joining from every direction.
1:09 The police are putting up barriers on 53d and 3d avenue. They are throwing them to one another. There is a huge crowd of people stopped by the barriers and they are chanting "let them through, let them through." There have been several unconfirmed arrests of people trying to get over the barriers. There is a lot of pushing and shoving with the police.
1:21 Third Avenue is full from 50th to 53d street . Cars and buses have been trapped by the crowd-- there are US Postal Service vans, a service van, and taxis. Marchers have completely taken the street.
1:23 The uptown Lexington avenue line has been stopped at 23rd street because of the protest.
1:24 We have reports that portions of Second Avenue have been taken over by marchers as well.
1:37 A smaller group of people made it out of the 51st / 3d Avenue pen and were herded north on 2nd avenue. It is a diverse group. They are now being stopped by a row of mounted police on 54th st, and they cannot move north.
1:43 First avenue is reported to be completely inacccessible-- people who want to get there to protest cannot. 2nd avenue is full wall to wall in the 60's. We are hearing reports that the police on 3d avenue have given up, though this isn't confirmed.
1:50 Sources report that police have begun arresting demonstrators on 54th and 2nd Avenue.
2:18 pm 2:04 At 53d and 3d Avenue, New Yorkers rushed the street barricade and 15 people made it through. Ten minutes later a group of 8 or 9 anti-capitalists linked arms and organized a second rush on a barricade. About 50 or 60 other people joined them in the rush. The police brought in reinforcements, maced 15 or more people, and pushed the crowd back.
F15 2:40pm More reports of police violence at 53d and Third. There were reports of people climbing atop barricades and being pushed off by police, about 25 on horses, plus others coming out of buses. The police have started to push the crowd back from 53rd street. However, people are completely trapped with nowhere to go
F15 2:42pm Estimate from organizers and the mainstream media on crowd size: the rally on 1st avenue streches many blocks north. NYPD usually estimates 7000 people can fill an avenue block. Including the additonal people trapped by police at 2nd and 3d organizers estimate over half a million people.
F15 3:00pm There have been 2 reported arrests at 2nd avenue and 57th street of people trying to storm a barricade. The crowd has begun getting very restless and has begun shouting “War means War.”
F15 3:01pm 53rd and 3d Avenue: People on the west side of the barricade have been trying to negotiate with the police but they may be getting ready to storm it. There have been seven or eight reported arrests. There have been reports of plainclothes policemen have been getting very violent with protesters.
3:04 50th and 3rd: Unconfirmed reports that people marching on the sidewalk were attacked by police. Completely peaceful when police attacked crowd. Mass pepper-spraying of crowd and large amounts of police violence. There is a report that there is a severe lack of medical help at the scene. There were men, women and children in the crowd.
53rd and 3d: Crowd has been corralled on all four corners. Police are pushing the crowd against the buildings.
F15 3:24pm 57th and 2nd: The crowd has taken the streets and is chanting “Whose streets? Our streets?” Police have not made any arrests or injuries, but they are using their horses to push the crowd with their horses back on to the sidewalk.
F15 3:34pm Reports of 300 police at Times Square.
F15 3:37pm Critical mass shut down Times Square for about 5 minutes. About 20 to 30 bikes and 100 people surrounded Times Square, but we are hearing that the police have begun to move people out of the way.
F15 3:59pm People at Lexington between 51st and 52nd have surged into the streets, surrounding traffic and groups of police officers.
F15 4:00pm Critical Mass cyclists have left, but 30 people on foot are on 7th ave between 47th and 48th chanting, "This is what democracy looks like." Police are preparing to make arrests.
F15 4:11pm Times Square subway station is closed; no one is allowed in or out.
F15 4:12pm The 50-100 people at 52nd and Lexington have sat down in the street. A line of cops on horseback have moved in from the north, and another line have moved in from the south. The southern line is riding into the crowd.
F15 4:17pm 52nd and Lexington: The southern line of horse-cops backed off, but then the northern line pressed into the crowd. Cops on foot were shoving people out of the intersection, trying to get people moving again. They reportedly beat an old man.
F15 4:23pm About 200 people are on 42nd street and 6th Ave, with no police presence, heading west.
F15 4:49pm We are hearing reports of police brutality outside Times Square, 42nd St and 7th Ave; police on horses running into and over protesters.
F15 4:53pm We have heard reports, unconfirmed, of unprovoked arrests earlier in the day on 92nd and 2nd Ave between 1:30 and 2:00pm. Our source is telling us that he saw several high school students arrested and maced. *** We have started to get many reports of police brutality throughout the day.

and so on...

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 2:31 pm

horses in crowd

Horses charging crowd where I was

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:20 pm

Originally posted by Kameleon
Wow - did London really have more people than anywhere else in the world? I'm not surprised to be honest, but proud all the same

True that...Police figures were 750,000, and the last two anti-war marches had police figures of 30,000 (when the organiser figures were 200,000), and 100,000, when the organisers' figures were 500,000...Judging by the aerial photos, I think the total was at least 3 times as big as last time...I would buy any figure from 1,500,000 upwards...the number of people was immense...
There was no violence, and police action (and presence) were minimal...
No arrests for abusing the police, and no arrests, thankfully, for smoking draw...
A big Muslim presence was a great thing about the march...as well as random people from the whole of Britain (e.g Homosexual Pagans Society)

Best Flags:

George Bush as Golem - 'MY PRESCIOUS'
'BLAIR AND STRAW YANK POODLES' (genius

)

Let's just be happy that noone tried to do anything about concerns for the state of Hyde Park's lawn

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:24 pm

Originally posted by frogus
'BLAIR AND STRAW YANK POODLES' (genius )

LMFAO!

I'll have to find somewhere to use that...

Wish I could have been there...

rukal · Post by **rukal** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:50 pm

War

'Peace is but a shadow of death'

We, in middle earth(NZ)are supporting this oil war knowing if the god forsaken US don't get there oil it wll cost us more to driver our cars tractors etc.
we all know peace is what happens with lack of fun, and blowing the hell out middle east will be fun,I say its about time.
But then who is whatching the hunters, who knows when the super power will turn to the dark side.

peace is but a shadow of death

frogus · Post by **frogus** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:52 pm

*looks for other Billy Goats Gruff*

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 5:58 pm

Hey Frogus - sounds great. I'm waiting to hear from my friends in London. Haven't had a chance to call them yet.

Favorite signs:
Bush & D1ck: Asses of Evil
Baby, I Am the Bomb - From the Glam Americans for Peace organization
Eat Another Pretzel, A$shole

Also, if anyone goes to that website I posted above with the horses charging - I just realized that the woman to the left of the horse in the main photo is ME! My nose is all red from the cold.
Here it is again==

Azmodan · Post by **Azmodan** » Sun Feb 16, 2003 8:24 pm

the anti-war demo here in Copehagen was HUGE (for a danish demo) they said there were about 30.000 people....

i havent seen such a big demo in denmark since i was a kid and got dragged to some "anti-nuclear" demos

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 2:01 am

What did this anti-war movement achieve?

The leaders of countries have refused to budge and people unecessarily die daily in Iraq, and sadam is still in power.

Also the peace march has the biggest numbers in countries who will be involved and french/germany. Meaning the rallies could mean they are against their countries stance and not the concept of war (which is a little selfish when we saw no big marches about rwanda, kosovo, against sadam ....etc).

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 4:43 am

Originally posted by at99
What did this anti-war movement achieve?

It's a vocal demonstration of the people disgust towards the war effort, what it actually acheives towards stopping the war is questionable, I'm not personally sure how much it will do but it is certainly better than nothing and it does show a level of democratic activity against the war.

The mass of anti-vietnam war protesters, conciencious objectors etc had an effect on the effort during that campaign.

It is a civil right to protest anything that the public are against, obviously it is only a civil right to peacefully protest but really it is just making use of ones democratic rights. The people at this stage are fairly powerless to change current events but any government with that weight of people against it will find it a struggle to win the next election and for all the war on terror rhetoric that gets thrown around really when it comes down to it staying in power is very important to any government.

Your quite right, we didn't see many marches against those atrocities which is sad really, still you can always organise one yourself you know.

at99 · Post by **at99** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:40 am

Originally posted by Mr Sleep
It's The mass of anti-vietnam war protesters, conciencious objectors etc had an effect on the effort during that campaign.

Your quite right, we didn't see many marches against those atrocities which is sad really, still you can always organise one yourself you know.

I was not having a shot at having a protest about war but questioning peoples motives for this particular peace rally around the world. You get the impression that it was the moral thing to do from a protesters point of view, and painting Blair,Bush as the enemy and sadam is the poor victim.

Did we see many 'disarm sadam posters?'

The world is very different from the vietnam days when a protest was justified but today.....

If the UN could do its job we would not be argueing with each other.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:05 am

Originally posted by at99
I was not having a shot at having a protest about war but questioning peoples motives for this particular peace rally around the world. You get the impression that it was the moral thing to do from a protesters point of view, and painting Blair,Bush as the enemy and sadam is the poor victim.

Did we see many 'disarm sadam posters?'

The world is very different from the vietnam days when a protest was justified but today.....

If the UN could do its job we would not be argueing with each other.

I didn't say you were, I was merely explaining why the protesters decided to start, personally I think they should protest at the next election too, no point protesting now and not protesting in the voting booths.

I don't think it was their intention, they are voicing their problem with going to war with a country that as of this point there is no proof against and a country whose citizens are already beaten down and then they are going to be bombed too. I think it is mostly a humanitarian concern. Plus there is an economic factor to it also. I don't think anyone sees Saddam as a victim.

Disarm him from what, there is no proof, well no substantial proof.

Was it justified any more than this one?

Azmodan · Post by **Azmodan** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:42 am

@ at99.....
i wouldent know for the rest of the world, but it was not a anti-Bush demo...
it was a anti-WAR demo.
Nobody is cheering for Saddam.....

and since i am not american, i dont know the arguments in the us. But from where i stand and the general populations understanding, is that this is a war, for nothig, other than the war itself.

this is not to be understood as a anti-US statement. if i wanted to make such, id do it in another thread

@ Mr Sleep, you are SOOOOOOOO right!

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:58 am

Thanks Az

It's sad really, the following article has proved prophetic for all the wrong reasons, note when this was written and how it was written in a somewhat ironic manner...

Tamerlane · Post by **Tamerlane** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:06 am

I forgot about this article, from the Onion no doubt.

"For years, I tirelessly preached the message that Clinton must be stopped," conservative talk-radio host Rush Limbaugh said. "And yet, in 1996, the American public failed to heed my urgent warnings, re-electing Clinton despite the fact that the nation was prosperous and at peace under his regime. But now, thank God, that's all done with. Once again, we will enjoy mounting debt, jingoism, nuclear paranoia, mass deficit, and a massive military build-up."

Kameleon · Post by **Kameleon** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:09 am

How very, very true Tam...

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:13 am

I just re-read it again, it's like theonion.com got their crystal ball out, scary really.

VoodooDali · Post by **VoodooDali** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:54 am

Thanks for digging that up, Sleepy. Eerily prophetic.

@AT - This protest was not like protests of the 60's in that it was not made up only of young people, or only super-liberals. I met investment bankers and what-not. They came from all walks of life. This is the problem the anti-war people have with the US's argument for going to war with Iraq. Bush's argument seems to be: "Iraq has ties with Al-Qaeda, Saddam Hussein is a really bad guy, and Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. Let's go to war BEFORE they do anything."
Problems the protestors have with the above argument:
Everyone agrees that Saddam is a bad guy, but so is the leader of China, North Korea and a host of other countries. Why not go to war with them?
Iraq has WMD. Yes, but the USA and Russia have by far the most WPM, as does India, Pakistan, North Korea, China, and so on. Again, why not go to war with them?
The only hope then of convincing people is to show a tie between Al-Qaeda and Iraq, which neither Bush nor Blair have been able to do to anyone's satisfaction.
Finally, we are very uncomfortable with the notion of attacking another country that has not attacked us first.

Other things the protestors fear:
This will fuel the terrorist groups, and they will increase substantially.
The war will drag on indefinitely, as did Vietnam.
The war will accomplish nothing leaving the same regime in power, as did Vietnam.
Veterans of the Gulf War are concerned about the casualties that will be suffered by soldiers, since this will be a war fought in their own cities, or in very rugged mountainous terrain - not on a flat empty desert in another country like Kuwait.
Even the military estimates around a quarter of a million casualties.

Also, for those who think the protests accomplish nothing, check out this article in the NY Times today.
A New Power in the Streets

CM · Post by CM » Mon Feb 17, 2003 9:57 am

The whole thing was a waste of time. People showed up had a party and Bush ignored the whole thing. Bush wants this war no matter what. People just dont realise that. The demonstrations have had no affect at all.

The war is going to come. People will die and life will go on.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Mon Feb 17, 2003 10:12 am

Originally posted by VoodooDali
Iraq has WMD.

Do they? I thought they still hadn't proved it.

The only hope then of convincing people is to show a tie between Al-Qaeda and Iraq, which neither Bush nor Blair have been able to do to anyone's satisfaction.

Because there isn't really one, why would a group made up substantially of the Kurdish support Iraq, frankly it just wouldn't happen.

Finally, we are very uncomfortable with the notion of attacking another country that has not attacked us first.

After all this is contraveining several laws as well as probably going against the UN. After all this apparently some people are going to take Blair to court for breaking the law

Veterans of the Gulf War are concerned about the casualties that will be suffered by soldiers, since this will be a war fought in their own cities, or in very rugged mountainous terrain - not on a flat empty desert in another country like Kuwait.

Indeed and most Western nations have become more precious about their military casualties.