Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>There is no God. I can see why people believe there is because like many before me have said, it is a source of comfort to know that no matter how crappy their lives are currently, if they behave, they will go to a place where everything is great.</STRONG>
As far as Christianity goes I direct you to the Security of the Believer (mentioned in my previous post). People trying to earn brownie points for good deeds rather than good for its own sake don’t know what they’re doing (if they’re Christians. Other religions have differing views on the matter).
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>But what happens up there? If your up there and you feel like putting a rose garden in and someone doesn't like rose gardens where you want, what happens then? Aren't you supposed to live happy when your up there? Either way, one person isn't going to be happy up there. It is impossible and improbable that such a place could exist when you understand the full capacity of the human race. We are not capable of making everyone happy unless each and every one of us was on their own world.</STRONG>
I'm not even going to attempt to quantify what Heaven is. Suffice to say that if it’s good enough for God then it’s good enough for me.

Have you ever seen What Dreams May Come? Not a flawless movie but certainly an intrging one. It’s idea on what Heaven is might change your view on this matter.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>There also exists this problem of people who tend to enjoy their lives down here in the plane of reality and are suddenly called sinners for blowing your nose three times in an easterly direction while farting in a west direction. As stupid as this sounds, it is not nearly as rediculous as the nature of many other so called "sins". It saddens me to no end to realise that there are people denying themselves of a fulfilled life in the false hope that they will be looked after in this all mighty of heavenly kingdoms.</STRONG>
Well most religions don’t object to good clean fun. Christianity frowns upon whoring, incest, adultery, witchcraft, etc. If someone’s idea of fun is getting drunk and doped up before picking up some hookers and gang-banging people before calling the psychic hotline, then yes most priests are going to frown upon this. But I don’t believe being part of a religion should be detrimental to having a ‘good’ or ‘fun’ life. Many religions folk
are a bit overzealous and love to wave fingers, but you shouldn’t let these vocal naysayers act as a template for all religions. Many believers are well meaning people who try not to get into other's faces. And the guidelines of most religions are basically sound moral codes.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>It also saddens me to think that this idea of religion and an almighty spirit was concocted by one man or a group of people in the hope to control people into behaving. People now go about their lives and believe this false story. It is denying them of truly living.</STRONG>
That pretty much sums up Friedrich Nietzsche’s viewpoints fairly well. But not all religious people are control freaks out to kill your buzz. Granted, the ones on the national/international level are pretty shady, but most local priests are much more tolerant and accepting. The younger clergy in particular or the ones with churches situated in poor neighborhoods are much more apt to friendly, then some conning televangelist.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>One thing has always puzzled me though. If this heaven is such a wonderful place, how come every believer hasn't killed themselves so they can go there? Seems a little odd if this world is so full of sinners. Or is it that everyone's just trying to get into 'God's good books'? "Look what I did God. I saved that person, aren't I special?"</STRONG>
[/QB][/QUOTE]
Ever hear of the Heaven’s Gate cult? Mass suicide is common for cults but not major organized religions. Augustine argued in the fifth century that suicide was a violation of the sixth commandment, "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Later, Thomas Aquinas, being catholic and believing that confession of sin must be made prior to departure from the world to the next, taught that suicide was the most fatal of all sins because the victim could not repent of it. So suicide is definitely out for someone who follows Christianity, Catholism, etc.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>Now as much as this whole false belief saddens me, I haven't got my eyes closed, as to completely miss what it does for people. I see that it embelishes a strong sense of community spirit and bringing people together. It is this sense of comfort that people get from their misfortune that helps them go on. It just seems to me to be a copout. If your not strong enough to play by the rules of this world, you can always rely on this ancient belief that your gonna get to heaven and they aren't so nah!</STRONG>
Most believers don’t turn to religion because they’re wimps who can’t handle the real world, quite the opposite. In fact, I’m rather shocked you didn’t bring up the Crusades or the Conquistadors. Faith can indeed be a comfort to people on times of need, but I hardly classify that as being some sort of flaw. Most people need to have some sort of support system in times of tragedy. Having faith should make a person
more independent and self-reliant, not less.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>Now I've rambled long enough, but there is one point I'm going to make. I'm a decent, law abiding citizen who enjoys many things in life and still realises there are things you shouldn't do like steal, kill etc. Not because they are sins, but because I see them as morally wrong. I do not consider abortion a morally wrong decision though and many of the so called sins are to me, nothing but garbage!</STRONG>
Difference in religion and politics are two separate things (though often they do go hand in hand). But believe it or not there are Christians in favor of abortion and atheists opposed to it. As you said, each person has their own moral compass to follow. Takes all types to make a world, after all.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>So in your beliefs, I'm not going to heaven. (the place where I can't plant my rose garden). So, that means I'm going to hell where I'll be tortured and forced to listen to old barry manalow records for all eternity according to the strong believers out there. Do you realise how utterly absurd this is? For your kind and gentle god to allow someone who enjoys life, follows essential laws but has sex with condoms just for fun? Seems to me like this god of yours isn't being real nice like and playing with the other children. Perhaps he should be in this so called hell of yours.</STRONG>
Again we seem to be forgetting the Devil and human free will. God doesn’t send people to hell, but neither does he just scoop up everybody who dies and brings them to heaven. He simply opens up the gates. It’s up to us to take the steps through it (and oh what easy steps they are:
"And Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Rom 10:3 ).
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>One last thing... believe what you like, it doesn't matter to me, one thing I do believe however, is for you to live and enjoy your lives now. Make the most of what you have, love, live and experience all of that which is offered to you. For I'm not going to lying in my grave saying, damn, I wish I had really did have sex more with those condoms. Would have been nice. While you good christian folk are going to be laying there thinking, damn, I knew we shouldn't have believed that garbage.</STRONG>
I’m sensing a lot of bitterness coming from you Vehemence but I’m not offended, rather curious about what tragedy or intolerance you have experienced in your life that has led you to classify Christian beliefs as ‘garbage’. I’m sorry for whatever prejudice you have received from Christians in the past and can only pray (both symbolically and literally) that you see friendlier times when dealing with Christians in the future. I like my life very much and don’t feel in the least that my religion has inhibited my enjoyment of the moment. In fact it makes me appreciate what I have that much more.
Originally posted by Vehemence:
<STRONG>Once again, I don't apologise for stomping repeatedly upon anyone's toes. This is my opinion and I believe everyone is welcome to it.
Thank you and have a nice life, I know I will

</STRONG>
No worries, that’s why we’re here. I’m finding this topic extremely enlightening, giving me new perspectives on old concepts. My thanks to everyone involved!
EDIT: My God this post is huge!
[ 05-17-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]