Theological Quandaries 101

Nightfire · Post by **Nightfire** » Wed May 16, 2001 12:06 pm

Wow. A delightfully civil thread about a subject that is notorious flamewar-fodder.

I have a question for the theists in the thread, but first a few comments. Sorry for the length, I'll try to keep it as short as possible.

First, I think the term for belief in an entity who "kickstarted" reality and created the natural laws but otherwise did and does not interfere with its creation is "deism".

@fable: Interesting post about your beliefs. So you think belief can create reality? A good number of fantasy worlds or RPG systems operate like that principle to a lesser or greater extent, namely D&D and the Discworld. BTW, I highly recommend the Discworld novels for both astute insight into the human mind and wonderfully side-splitting humor.

@Anatres: While I am not an American, I disagree with your take on the First Amendment. Mandatory prayer or the display of religious items is a step towards establishing a state religion. People should be able to pray at their leisure, but they cannot force others to join or pray to a captive audience. IMO, religion belongs in schools inasmuch as I think that Comparative Religion classes are a very good idea to combat ignorance and prejudice, but that's the extent of it. Information yes, indoctrination no.

I'm very adamant about this because I literally suffered through enforced "Religion" (read: protestant christianity) classes at school (in Germany) for several years until we got the choice to take Ethics instead. Schools and other public institutions exist to serve all citizens regardless of their belief or lack thereof, and thus should not presume to force a particular belief on people.

Now to my question: if you are a theist, I suppose there is a smaller or greater number of matters in your religion that you disagree with. If this doesn't apply to you, ignore the question.

BTW, I'm not talking about fanctual errors such as YEC, but rather moral issues. So ... how do you reconcile your own morality with your beliefs in these cases?

Nightfire · Post by **Nightfire** » Wed May 16, 2001 12:12 pm

Hmm, something else comes to mind ...

@Kayless: Pascal's Wager is intrinsically flawed for several reasons; let me just touch on the ones I consider most important. First, it only deals with one particular deity of the many hundreds that humans have envisioned throughout history. It does not give any reason why wagering on the existance of the deity called "God" is any more sensible than wagering on (say) the existance of the deity called "Kali". Second, it presumes that the deity you wager on, if it exists, is either too stupid to know WHY you believe in it, or doesn't care. If however said deity desires that you worship it out of honest adoration, it'll not be impressed if your belief is the result of a cool calculation to save your own ass.

Third, it is wrong that you "lose nothing" if you don't believe. If you wagered on the wrong deity, you might find out that the real one has a special distaste for likes of you ... and if there are no gods at all, you've wasted your time (and money) fearfully worshipping a nonexistant being instead of going on with your life and living it the best you can, for its own sake.

Lastly, PW is a pure scare tactic and IMO exemplifies the vicious "control freak" aspect of religion that others have mentioned in this thread. I for one find such scare tactics immoral, even "evil", and if there was a god and he/she/it actually employed such methods, I would automatically consider a "deity" that stoops to extortion and brutality to be unworthy of any kind of devotion. I would hold a deity to greater standards of morality than humans, and I think we all agree that such Mafia methods are wrong if humans use them.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed May 16, 2001 12:17 pm

@Nightfire; Well perhaps you misunderstood my take on prayer in school. I don't advocate it as a requirement I'm simply dismayed by the ban on the Pledge of Alliegence. To me the term 'God' does not belong to one belief system but to all of them so the simple phrase 'under God, indivisable' is hardly the first step toward a 'state religion'.

Nightfire · Post by **Nightfire** » Wed May 16, 2001 12:40 pm

Hmm. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from my perspective, it seems that the ones who are most vocal about bringing/keeping the various references to "God" in public schools are generally not the kind of people who'd agree that this "God" stands for everyone's deity of choice, whatever it may be, but rather a conservative Protestant version of the Christian god.

What do you mean about a "ban", BTW? Has the Pledge been complete removed from schools lately?

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed May 16, 2001 12:51 pm

@Nightfire; there are a still a few 'holdouts' that do recite the Pledge. And yes, it is unfortunate but the vocal minority that want school prayer are the ultra-right wing. They, like the ultra-left wing give the terms 'republican' and 'liberal' their worst connotations. I guess my position springs more from a sense of patriotism rather than one of 'religious fundamentalism'. But as George S. Patton said 'There are no athiests in foxholes'. I'm sure that there are plenty of prayers said in schools of all types, especially around finals time.

Also, I'm a constituionalist, and believe in the separation of church and state for the vary reason you cited. A state 'sponsered' religion was anathema to the Founding Fathers.

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: Anatres ]

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed May 16, 2001 1:42 pm

Interesting quote to go into this thread;

The world, and whatever that be which we call the heavens, by the vault of which all things are enclosed, we must conceive to be a deity, to be eternal, without bounds, neither created nor subject at any time to destruction. To inquire what is beyond it is no concern of man; nor can the human mind form any conjecture concerning it.
Natural History. Book ii. Sect. 1.
Pliny the Elder

hermetic · Post by **hermetic** » Wed May 16, 2001 2:48 pm

Ah Pliny! Good reference! In Vino Veritas
heh
Ok so this thread looks promising. Lets continue with the Classics, shall we?
Anybody know the etymology of the "Zeus"?

Gwalchmai · Post by **Gwalchmai** » Wed May 16, 2001 5:39 pm

I do not presume to have the knowledge or intelligence of the other posters on this thread, but I have limited experience with the subject and have formed a few opinions.

Religion is like a human organism - it defies definition. Political systems are designed to control. Egalitarian societies exist among small bands of people, but as population increases, the political system evolves - chiefdom, state. Political systems must regulate these crowds of people with rules, taxes, and enforcement, otherwise chaos would ensue. In so far as Religious systems become or influence Political systems, they must control people. As it has already been stated, this is different from the basic spirituality of the religion. Sadly, religious systems can exist without spirituality. Fortunately, spirituality can also exist without religious systems.

Thus I view most organized religion with a suspicious eye. I wonder about their motives, and what they want from me. I have seen people use their religion as a means to give value to their otherwise meaningless lives by demeaning others, including their own wives (my sister). This, to me, is just plain wrong. I also find that some missionaries preach by first conferring guilt on people who are otherwise happy. These unconverted must be shown the error of their ways (by introducing their concept of sin), feel guilty, then come to the specified religion for purification. Its like setting off firecrackers next to a sleeping baby just so you can comfort it when it cries.

In a utopia, different religions should proselytize by meeting in open dialog, without condemnation. Afterwards, anyone who wants to covert is welcomed with a hearty handshake, those who don't are given some nice parting gifts, a warm smile, and are invited to visit anytime.

I don't really know what to believe. Sometimes I'm a little animistic - when I cut off a tree limb, I think "that might have hurt the tree" and I give the tree a little water to make up for the pruning. I hope that there is an underlying ethic that everyone is subconsciously aware of that says, "Try not to hurt anyone, try to be helpful, and try to be happy." That should be enough.

Okay, back to lurking.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Wed May 16, 2001 6:24 pm

Originally posted by Nightfire:
@Kayless: Pascal's Wager is intrinsically flawed for several reasons; let me just touch on the ones I consider most important. First, it only deals with one particular deity of the many hundreds that humans have envisioned throughout history. It does not give any reason why wagering on the existance of the deity called "God" is any more sensible than wagering on (say) the existance of the deity called "Kali".

Pascal’s Wager is indeed from a Christen perspective. So many of it’s ‘flaws’ are not flaws from a christen standpoint. The Judeo/Christian deity is the only god in the religion so worrying about other gods is moot to a member of their faith. But even so it would be a bit hypocritical (not to mention long) is Paschal went into explicit detail on why one religion is better then another. Pascal is basically saying that religion is spiritual insurance. If your wrong you die thinking you’re going to a better place. I don’t see how that is bad. A nonbeliever dies and thinks he’s simple going to cease to exist. Not very pleasant even if there isn’t really a god after all. But if Paschal is right then the nonbeliever is screwed when he dies while the believer has hit the jackpot.

Originally posted by Nightfire:
Second, it presumes that the deity you wager on, if it exists, is either too stupid to know WHY you believe in it, or doesn't care. If however said deity desires that you worship it out of honest adoration, it'll not be impressed if your belief is the result of a cool calculation to save your own ass.

Most converts join a church for some ulterior motive anyway. Having such a benign one as merely seeking to save your soul is hardly the worst of offenses. Taking a chance on God to save your own skin may not be highly faithful, but the bible says all you need is faith the size of a mustard seed. So just having a little faith is enough to get you on the road to salvation. As far as Christianity is concerned (as well as a few others) the reason why you joined the club is inconsequential and has little effect on the fate of your soul.

Originally posted by Nightfire:
Third, it is wrong that you "lose nothing" if you don't believe. If you wagered on the wrong deity, you might find out that the real one has a special distaste for likes of you ... and if there are no gods at all, you've wasted your time (and money) fearfully worshipping a nonexistant being instead of going on with your life and living it the best you can, for its own sake.

What you’re basically saying is having insurance is bad because it’s possible you might be swindle by insurance fraud or the company might not be legit. So you’d rather not have any insurance at all. I simply don’t see that as logical. Pascal’s Wager should be used as a guide on why to believe, not what to believe in. Though a Christian, Pascal doesn’t come out and say ‘Christianity is the religion for you!’ He's just giving you an incentive to believe in something.

Originally posted by Nightfire:
 Lastly, PW is a pure scare tactic and IMO exemplifies the vicious "control freak" aspect of religion that others have mentioned in this thread. I for one find such scare tactics immoral, even "evil", and if there was a god and he/she/it actually employed such methods, I would automatically consider a "deity" that stoops to extortion and brutality to be unworthy of any kind of devotion. I would hold a deity to greater standards of morality than humans, and I think we all agree that such Mafia methods are wrong if humans use them.

God didn't write Pascal’s Wager, Pascal did. So saying God is bad because of what his followers preach is unjust. And I vehemently disagree with your assessment that Pascal is trying to scare people into conversion. Many priests and zealots do this but Blaise Pascal is not one of them. Pascal’s Wager is one of the most inoffensive debates for religion that I have come across. Pascal is appealing to intellectuals (and gamblers

) that faith is logical.

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Wed May 16, 2001 8:16 pm

Okay, allow me to add my thoughts to this thread.

Jesus Christ claimed to be the Son of God. He was either:

1. Crazy
2. Lying
3. Telling the truth

Jesus Christ taught that man is destined to die once, and after death, face the judgement of God the Father, and be welcomed into heaven or thrown into hell. Those who die with no faith in Christ will find no mercy when they are judged. Again, in teaching this Jesus is either:

1. Crazy
2. Lying
3. Telling the truth

3 days after he was crucified, Jesus Christ rose from the dead, just as he predicted. This story is either

1. False
2. True

Christianity, the world's biggest and most influential religion, is based on the teachings of:

1. A lunatic
2. A liar
2. The Lord

I think I'll go with Jesus, the sanest, most-clearing-thinking human being who ever lived.

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed May 16, 2001 9:13 pm

@EMINEM:
Before I post my response, know that I too am a Christian who (duh) believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. I am also a scholar of the Bible, and will be embarking upon my Ph.D. studies this fall. Okay, that said, here's my response:

1. Many scholars debate whether Jesus actually claimed to be the Son of God, or whether such a claim was made by the writers of the Gospels in the light of their "Easter Faith;" "Easter Faith" meaning the understanding they received regarding Jesus' true identity as manifested through the Resurrection. This does not mean that He is NOT the Son of God; it only means that this revelation occurred to the disciples after the Resurrection/Ascenscion event, and that quite possibly Jesus never said it at all.

2. (quoting your post: ) "Those who die with no faith in Christ will find no mercy when they are judged." Matthew 25:31-45 is quite clear on who will find mercy at the Judgment: "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me." Also refer to the Beatitudes: "Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy" (Mt 5:7). Logically speaking then, based on these very words of Christ Himself, a Buddhist/Moslem/pagan/agnostic/atheist/you-name-it who does these things will be shown mercy. How can God, who "loves all things that are, and loathes nothing that He has made" (Wis 11:24), see His own creation, His children, perish forever, when they have loved throughout their lives, even if they haven't believed in Christ? "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength...and...you shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these" (Mk 12:30-31; also see Gal 5:14). "(God) will judge everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works; but wrath and fury to those who selfishly...obey wickedness...there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good. There is no partiality with God" (Rom 2:6-11). At the same time, many who claim belief in Christ will not be shown mercy at all, again according to His own teaching: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers'" (Mt 7:21-23; also see Lk 13:25b-27).

3. I don't know the numbers on religions throughout the population, so I can't say whether or not Christianity is indeed the largest religion in the world; certainly it is one of the most influential, but certainly many would argue that it is THE most influential. Certainly in the West it has been the most influential spirituality, at least in Euro-American history and culture; however in other parts of the world Islam has been most influential, and one cannot forget the influence of Buddhism in Asia as well. Certainly we must call Judaism one of the world's most influential religions...

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

leedogg · Post by **leedogg** » Wed May 16, 2001 9:53 pm

Originally posted by Kayless:

PASCAL'S WAGER:
EITHER God exists or he doesn't.
Which alternative will you wager on?
You can't avoid choosing one or the other;
you have embarked on the wager already.
A refusal to choose carries the same result
as choosing that God does not exist.
What if you choose to bet that God exists?
If you win, you win everything;
if you lose, you lose nothing.
Make a bet that God exists."

[/QB]

i do not wish to offend but this is too hard to pass on. you can bet on GOD until the cows come home, but what it boils down to is: if there is a GOD you still have to walk the straight and narrow to get to heaven. i'll be the first to admit that i'm a goner when that chariot swoops down. but then when i look at my wife (who believes firmly in church) she still isn't gonna make the cut, either. it's sad to me when i think about it. my main thing about religion is that people say "i believe in GOD, so i'm getting in those pearly gates". the simple truth is very few will make it. weasel and i fell much the same when it comes to religion. i'm not saying it's hopeless, maybe there is a GOD and he's much more forgiving that i think he would be. there's entirely too much hypocricy(?) in the churches for me to believe myself. but, i also think its funny how people who doubt (including me) will call on HIM when the road gets rough.

<summary> with out religion the world would be total chaos. on the other hand, the bible could just be a book wrote by a "Steven King" 2000 years ago. i hope my theory is wrong. IMHO.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed May 16, 2001 10:48 pm

Originally posted by Weasel:
Finally someone posted my belief. A means to control people.

Hey - I did that a long time ago, like the 4 or 5 post in the thread

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu May 17, 2001 3:27 am

I'm gonna come right out and say this and I have no doubt that I'm definitely going to offend some people. For this I do not apologise for this is my belief.

There is no God. I can see why people believe there is because like many before me have said, it is a source of comfort to know that no matter how crappy their lives are currently, if they behave, they will go to a place where everything is great.

But what happens up there? If your up there and you feel like putting a rose garden in and someone doesn't like rose gardens where you want, what happens then? Aren't you supposed to live happy when your up there? Either way, one person isn't going to be happy up there.

It is impossible and improbable that such a place could exist when you understand the full capacity of the human race. We are not capable of making everyone happy unless each and every one of us was on their own world.

There also exists this problem of people who tend to enjoy their lives down here in the plane of reality and are suddenly called sinners for blowing your nose three times in an easterly direction while farting in a west direction. As stupid as this sounds, it is not nearly as rediculous as the nature of many other so called "sins". It saddens me to no end to realise that there are people denying themselves of a fulfilled life in the false hope that they will be looked after in this all mighty of heavenly kingdoms.

It also saddens me to think that this idea of religion and an almighty spirit was concocted by one man or a group of people in the hope to control people into behaving. People now go about their lives and believe this false story. It is denying them of truly living.

One thing has always puzzled me though. If this heaven is such a wonderful place, how come every believer hasn't killed themselves so they can go there? Seems a little odd if this world is so full of sinners. Or is it that everyone's just trying to get into 'God's good books'? "Look what I did God. I saved that person, aren't I special?"

Now as much as this whole false belief saddens me, I haven't got my eyes closed, as to completely miss what it does for people. I see that it embelishes a strong sense of community spirit and bringing people together. It is this sense of comfort that people get from their misfortune that helps them go on. It just seems to me to be a copout. If your not strong enough to play by the rules of this world, you can always rely on this ancient belief that your gonna get to heaven and they aren't so nah!

Now I've rambled long enough, but there is one point I'm going to make. I'm a decent, law abiding citizen who enjoys many things in life and still realises there are things you shouldn't do like steal, kill etc. Not because they are sins, but because I see them as morally wrong. I do not consider abortion a morally wrong decision though and many of the so called sins are to me, nothing but garbage!

So in your beliefs, I'm not going to heaven. (the place where I can't plant my rose garden). So, that means I'm going to hell where I'll be tortured and forced to listen to old barry manalow records for all eternity according to the strong believers out there. Do you realise how utterly absurd this is? For your kind and gentle god to allow someone who enjoys life, follows essential laws but has sex with condoms just for fun? Seems to me like this god of yours isn't being real nice like and playing with the other children. Perhaps he should be in this so called hell of yours.

One last thing... believe what you like, it doesn't matter to me, one thing I do believe however, is for you to live and enjoy your lives now. Make the most of what you have, love, live and experience all of that which is offered to you. For I'm not going to lying in my grave saying, damn, I wish I had really did have sex more with those condoms. Would have been nice. While you good christian folk are going to be laying there thinking, damn, I knew we shouldn't have believed that garbage.

Once again, I don't apologise for stomping repeatedly upon anyone's toes. This is my opinion and I believe everyone is welcome to it.

Thank you and have a nice life, I know I will

[ 05-17-2001: Message edited by: Vehemence ]

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Thu May 17, 2001 3:32 am

@leedogg, As far as Christianity goes, getting into Heaven is not dependant on how good and pure you are, rather the fact that you have faith in Jesus Christ as your savior. It’s called the Security of the Believer. Catholics don’t believe in this nor do many other religions, but in Christianity it’s gospel: ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God’ (Eph 2:8). The effort of faith is what is required, not perfect saintly behavior. In Christianity no man gets into heaven through his personal merits, since all humans are inherently sinful creatures fallen from paradise. From a Christian standpoint Pascal’s Wager is more secure then it may be when seen through the prisms of other religions, but if your already a follower of another faith then you don’t need to bother with the Wager anyway. So again I must reiterate my belief that Pascal’s Wager poses a simple and very reasonable cause for faith.

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Thu May 17, 2001 4:39 am

Originally posted by Vehemence:
There is no God. I can see why people believe there is because like many before me have said, it is a source of comfort to know that no matter how crappy their lives are currently, if they behave, they will go to a place where everything is great.

As far as Christianity goes I direct you to the Security of the Believer (mentioned in my previous post). People trying to earn brownie points for good deeds rather than good for its own sake don’t know what they’re doing (if they’re Christians. Other religions have differing views on the matter).

Originally posted by Vehemence:
But what happens up there? If your up there and you feel like putting a rose garden in and someone doesn't like rose gardens where you want, what happens then? Aren't you supposed to live happy when your up there? Either way, one person isn't going to be happy up there. It is impossible and improbable that such a place could exist when you understand the full capacity of the human race. We are not capable of making everyone happy unless each and every one of us was on their own world.

I'm not even going to attempt to quantify what Heaven is. Suffice to say that if it’s good enough for God then it’s good enough for me.

Have you ever seen What Dreams May Come? Not a flawless movie but certainly an intrging one. It’s idea on what Heaven is might change your view on this matter.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
There also exists this problem of people who tend to enjoy their lives down here in the plane of reality and are suddenly called sinners for blowing your nose three times in an easterly direction while farting in a west direction. As stupid as this sounds, it is not nearly as rediculous as the nature of many other so called "sins". It saddens me to no end to realise that there are people denying themselves of a fulfilled life in the false hope that they will be looked after in this all mighty of heavenly kingdoms.

Well most religions don’t object to good clean fun. Christianity frowns upon whoring, incest, adultery, witchcraft, etc. If someone’s idea of fun is getting drunk and doped up before picking up some hookers and gang-banging people before calling the psychic hotline, then yes most priests are going to frown upon this. But I don’t believe being part of a religion should be detrimental to having a ‘good’ or ‘fun’ life. Many religions folk are a bit overzealous and love to wave fingers, but you shouldn’t let these vocal naysayers act as a template for all religions. Many believers are well meaning people who try not to get into other's faces. And the guidelines of most religions are basically sound moral codes.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
It also saddens me to think that this idea of religion and an almighty spirit was concocted by one man or a group of people in the hope to control people into behaving. People now go about their lives and believe this false story. It is denying them of truly living.

That pretty much sums up Friedrich Nietzsche’s viewpoints fairly well. But not all religious people are control freaks out to kill your buzz. Granted, the ones on the national/international level are pretty shady, but most local priests are much more tolerant and accepting. The younger clergy in particular or the ones with churches situated in poor neighborhoods are much more apt to friendly, then some conning televangelist.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
One thing has always puzzled me though. If this heaven is such a wonderful place, how come every believer hasn't killed themselves so they can go there? Seems a little odd if this world is so full of sinners. Or is it that everyone's just trying to get into 'God's good books'? "Look what I did God. I saved that person, aren't I special?"

[/QB][/QUOTE]

Ever hear of the Heaven’s Gate cult? Mass suicide is common for cults but not major organized religions. Augustine argued in the fifth century that suicide was a violation of the sixth commandment, "You shall not murder" (Exodus 20:13). Later, Thomas Aquinas, being catholic and believing that confession of sin must be made prior to departure from the world to the next, taught that suicide was the most fatal of all sins because the victim could not repent of it. So suicide is definitely out for someone who follows Christianity, Catholism, etc.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
Now as much as this whole false belief saddens me, I haven't got my eyes closed, as to completely miss what it does for people. I see that it embelishes a strong sense of community spirit and bringing people together. It is this sense of comfort that people get from their misfortune that helps them go on. It just seems to me to be a copout. If your not strong enough to play by the rules of this world, you can always rely on this ancient belief that your gonna get to heaven and they aren't so nah!

Most believers don’t turn to religion because they’re wimps who can’t handle the real world, quite the opposite. In fact, I’m rather shocked you didn’t bring up the Crusades or the Conquistadors. Faith can indeed be a comfort to people on times of need, but I hardly classify that as being some sort of flaw. Most people need to have some sort of support system in times of tragedy. Having faith should make a person more independent and self-reliant, not less.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
Now I've rambled long enough, but there is one point I'm going to make. I'm a decent, law abiding citizen who enjoys many things in life and still realises there are things you shouldn't do like steal, kill etc. Not because they are sins, but because I see them as morally wrong. I do not consider abortion a morally wrong decision though and many of the so called sins are to me, nothing but garbage!

Difference in religion and politics are two separate things (though often they do go hand in hand). But believe it or not there are Christians in favor of abortion and atheists opposed to it. As you said, each person has their own moral compass to follow. Takes all types to make a world, after all.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
So in your beliefs, I'm not going to heaven. (the place where I can't plant my rose garden). So, that means I'm going to hell where I'll be tortured and forced to listen to old barry manalow records for all eternity according to the strong believers out there. Do you realise how utterly absurd this is? For your kind and gentle god to allow someone who enjoys life, follows essential laws but has sex with condoms just for fun? Seems to me like this god of yours isn't being real nice like and playing with the other children. Perhaps he should be in this so called hell of yours.

Again we seem to be forgetting the Devil and human free will. God doesn’t send people to hell, but neither does he just scoop up everybody who dies and brings them to heaven. He simply opens up the gates. It’s up to us to take the steps through it (and oh what easy steps they are: "And Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Rom 10:3 ).

Originally posted by Vehemence:
One last thing... believe what you like, it doesn't matter to me, one thing I do believe however, is for you to live and enjoy your lives now. Make the most of what you have, love, live and experience all of that which is offered to you. For I'm not going to lying in my grave saying, damn, I wish I had really did have sex more with those condoms. Would have been nice. While you good christian folk are going to be laying there thinking, damn, I knew we shouldn't have believed that garbage.

I’m sensing a lot of bitterness coming from you Vehemence but I’m not offended, rather curious about what tragedy or intolerance you have experienced in your life that has led you to classify Christian beliefs as ‘garbage’. I’m sorry for whatever prejudice you have received from Christians in the past and can only pray (both symbolically and literally) that you see friendlier times when dealing with Christians in the future. I like my life very much and don’t feel in the least that my religion has inhibited my enjoyment of the moment. In fact it makes me appreciate what I have that much more.

Originally posted by Vehemence:
Once again, I don't apologise for stomping repeatedly upon anyone's toes. This is my opinion and I believe everyone is welcome to it.

Thank you and have a nice life, I know I will

No worries, that’s why we’re here. I’m finding this topic extremely enlightening, giving me new perspectives on old concepts. My thanks to everyone involved!

EDIT: My God this post is huge!

[ 05-17-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu May 17, 2001 5:47 am

Kayless, in one simple post, you've boosted my tolerance of the human race. Honestly, that is possibly the greatest response to my somewhat hostile post.

A couple of key points:

Most believers don’t turn to religion because they’re wimps who can’t handle the real world, quite the opposite. In fact, I’m rather shocked you didn’t bring up the Crusades or the Conquistadors. Faith can indeed be a comfort to people on times of need, but I hardly classify that as being some sort of flaw. Most people need to have some sort of support system in times of tragedy. Having faith should make a person more independent and self-reliant, not less.

I'm somewhat quick to judge. I've had a pretty good life and my support network has always been there for me. I've never needed religion to fill a void. You make an excellent point above, and I understand what your saying.

Difference in religion and politics are two separate things (though often they do go hand in hand). But believe it or not there are Christians in favor of abortion and atheists opposed to it. As you said, each person has their own moral compass to follow. Takes all types to make a world, after all.

Isn't abortion a sin? If so, then how can a christian be in support of a sin?

Again we seem to be forgetting the Devil and human free will. God doesn’t send people to hell, but neither does he just scoop up everybody who dies and brings them to heaven. He simply opens up the gates. It’s up to us to take the steps through it (and oh what easy steps they are: "And Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Rom 10:3 ).

Hmmm... this last sentence just doesn't sit right with me. You wrote earlier about how faith adds to an individual's independence, however, ("And Whoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved") just seems to me like the big brother sitting on you saying "Just say I'm better than you and I'll get off you." In a way, it's promoting dependence upon a greater power in order to find meaning in ones life. I'm sorry, perhaps theres something I'm missing, but it just doesn't do anything for me.

I’m sensing a lot of bitterness coming from you Vehemence but I’m not offended, rather curious about what tragedy or intolerance you have experienced in your life that has led you to classify Christian beliefs as ‘garbage’. I’m sorry for whatever prejudice you have received from Christians in the past and can only pray (both symbolically and literally) that you see friendlier times when dealing with Christians in the future. I like my life very much and don’t feel in the least that my religion has inhibited my enjoyment of the moment. In fact it makes me appreciate what I have that much more.

Sorry, didn't mean to call it garbage. I guess you could say I don't like boundaries or limits. I find my own "moral compass" as you call it, directs me as to where I can go and where I can't. As to your previous comment about the drugging and drunkeness, I agree that this is not to be considered fun. To me anyway. But who is anyone to say that because a person does such a thing that they shall spend an eternity being tortured? Doesn't the bible speak of forgiveness? Or is this behaviour considered too far over the line?

Ok, that's it for now. I have to say, Kayless, that your calm response to my post is definitely a nice thing to see. Nice to know that Game Banshee has decent rational thinking people. Even if they do belive in God

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Thu May 17, 2001 5:57 am

@Kayless -- my sentiments excatly...

Contrary to what I realize is a popular belief, Catholics are also Christians. I believe the distinction is not "Catholics and Christians" but "Catholics and Protestants". Both are distincttraditions, but both are Christian.

re your quote from Romans: see also Rom 2:6-11; Mt 7:21-23, and Mt 25:32-45, on who will be saved (as I posted above...)

@Vehemence: Obviously, you read EMINEM's post and skipped my response. Read the post immediately following EMINEM's for a different perspective from a Christian, if you're interested. You may be surprised...

...andreligious people aren't necessarily lacking a support network. Many people I know, myself included, have a strong support network of family and friends and still believe in God (or a "Creator"), actually precisely because of those relationships. Many do use religion as a means to "fill a void," as you say, but not always. In your terms of meaning the word "void" that is...it could be said that there is a Creator-void in each human being that only the Creator can fill, but it's a natural occurrence, like other human instincts.

[ 05-17-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

EMINEM · Post by **EMINEM** » Thu May 17, 2001 6:23 am

loner, do you believe in the physical ressurection of Christ?

Being a Biblical scholar, I'm sure you understand the importance of Jesus's ressurection from the dead.

From what I understand of the New Testament, and also from Lewis and Schaeffer, you can believe many things about Christ, many orthodox and unorthodox views, but if you do not believe in the resurrection, you CANNOT be a Christian. As Paul stated in Corinthians, "If Christ did not rise from the dead, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Thu May 17, 2001 6:29 am

@EMINEM -- Absolutely. Did my post imply that I was questioning the Resurrection? I didn't meant that at all...I firmly believe in it. However, I believe that it has many implications, both spiritual and physical, not just physical. I also believe that if it was ever proven that Christ did not physically rise (which I don't think it IS provable), I don't think it would make any difference. Christians wouldn't just have to hang up our hats and say "Oh well..." We would have to find another meaning/interpretation for it, that's all. But to answer you, yes I absolutely do believe that Christ rose bodily.