Are you a feminist?

[RandomThug]

Women are crazy. Insane and unbalanced.


I might be wrong but if I am its most likely a crazy unbalanced woman will point it out.

[VoodooDali]

@Chanak: thanks for the insight into what's happening with women in the military today.

I don't know, some of the logical arguments against women fighting seem to me to be smokescreens for what are really emotional reasons. I'm not saying this about you, Chanak, but I'm just a little bit suspicious. It reminds me of some of the old-fashioned attitudes in science. I have a BS in Biology and had to take all these Chemistry courses. They still teach Chemistry as they taught it in the 19th century. There is an attitude that you have to learn how to do all the formulas first, and a full understanding of the theories will come later. I had no problem with the idea of doing example formulas to see how it was done in the past or to demonstrate how a theory or whatever was arrived at - but they had us doing hundreds and hundreds of them! Do I remember how to do the formulas now? No. Do I know any chemists who still use these formulas? No. Because we have computers, and everything is calculated for us. I guess what I'm getting at is - is the traditional training a soldier receives truly necessary for all the jobs in combat, many of which appear to me to be very technical. Has the traditional training ever been modified in response to changes in technology (not just in response to women joining the military)? Is there a recognition that not all soldiers will be grunts on the front lines carrying large sacks and guns? Or will boot camp remain unchanged because that's the way it's always been done?

As far as the musical ability question that's been brought up.
I did hear about a study somewhere (coming out of the genome project) that they isolated a gene for musical ability. I tend to believe that, b/c I've known so many people who had the desire to play, but could never master an instrument.
I've played piano for over 20 years. I've also played drums. I think the two instruments are linked, since the piano is a rhythm instrument as well as a melodic one, and requires a great deal of coordination. I was also good at the organ. When I went to Interlochen, the best organist in the US at the time was a woman (and liked my playing!) Probably the most complex playing I've ever done, since playing Bach on the organ required precise timing, and each hand and foot was doing something completely different.
I knew a female drummer in Austin who drummed for a pretty well-known band in the 80's called Bad Mutha Goose - she was the best drummer in Austin at the time - and that was a time when there were over 300 working bands there.

Having been so involved in the music scene in Austin (and also in NYC), I feel that the main reason women have not become "guitar gods" is not due to lack of ability, or a physical deficit. I think it's due more to a lack of interest. I've noticed that a lot more women who get into rock come from a classical background like me, and are more interested in creating an overall sound/word package (e.g., remember the band, Lush?) than in being worshipped by an audience for technical skills on their instrument.

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by VoodooDali
As far as the musical ability question that's been brought up.
I did hear about a study somewhere (coming out of the genome project) that they isolated a gene for musical ability. I tend to believe that, b/c I've known so many people who had the desire to play, but could never master an instrument.

Hm, I highly doubt the HGP (Human genome project) had anything to do with such a study since that project is merely for sequencing, they don't study the function of the proteins the gene sequences code for. That's the job for HUPO, the Proteonomics project However, I am fairly sure no gene has been isolated for musical ability, musicality is a complex feature most likely consisisting of an interaction between a gene network (many genes forming a pattern) and a variety of environmental cues.

The only good study I know of that has to do with musical ability and genetics, is this one from the London Twin registry. It's a classical twin study which demonstrates a genetic component of pitch. Firstly, pitch is only a very limited part of musical ability. Second, a twin study only shows that a genetic correlation exists, it of course says nothing about which genes may be involved and how much they contribute. Remember: so far, behavioural genetics show that no single gene contribute more than at the very highest, 1% to any differences in basic human behaviour. (Exception for severe single gene diseases of course, but they are so few you can count them on one hand's fingers)

[Chanak]

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[fable]

Originally posted by C Elegans
However, I am fairly sure no gene has been isolated for musical ability, musicality is a complex feature most likely consisisting of an interaction between a gene network (many genes forming a pattern) and a variety of environmental cues.

@VoodooDali, I agree with CE, above. I can also give you a purely unscientific but pretty thought-provoking example of why musical ability is at the least largely tied to environmental cues.

Back in the late 1940s, the great Hungarian composer, folklorist and educator Zoltan Kodaly unveiled a method to produce highly musical children through Hungary's public school system. The objectives of the Kodaly method were:

1) To sing, dance, and play instruments, using traditional Hungarian folk material and singing games, and eventually expand into other cultures.

2) To perform, listen to, and analyze great international classics.

3) To achieve a level of mastery in various musical skills--not just reading musical scores, but writing and performing them, as well.

4) To improvise and compose music at each developmental level.

Kodaly devised a complex multi-level curricula, beginning with children learning how to listen to and repeat music from the age of four. He himself used to say, "Singing is the most important instrument." (I tend to agree with him. I think that while some people may have a genetic disposition which does not include musical skills, the reason for tone deafness is largely a lack of education in truly hearing musical notes at a very early age.) From this beginning, it got very complex. We won't go there.

My point in any case is that the Kodaly Method was unveiled in 1950. By the time international a capella children's choir competitions were starting again in Europe in the mid-1950's, the Hungarians had already trained up five years of students. The Huns barreled out of their native land, and swamped every single competition they entered, in every country.

Things evened out after the Kodaly Method was imported abroad, of course. But my point is the same one that educators are making today, as though they've discovered some fresh, unexplored land: young children are tabula rasa geniuses. Get them early enough, and you can teach them multiple languages, critical thought processes, and artistic skills, provided it is all done with care, thought, and a clearly established, sensible intellectual discipline.

It can be argued that the Kodaly Method alone will is incapable of producing a Mozart. On the other hand, we need to remember that Mozart only *became* Mozart because his father was an excellent musician and composer, who started teaching him the basics of music at the age of three. So while genetics may be involved, I think it's safe to say, on the basis of practical evidence, that the environmental cues CE refers to actually make a much greater difference in terms of the result.

[VoodooDali]

@Fable & CE: didn't mean to start a nature vs nurture debate regarding musical ability - it was a short piece of news I heard "somewhere" on TV this year... lol. I think that desire is the most important ingredient to mastering an instrument. The story about me goes that I kept going to all our neighbor's houses who had pianos and banging away on them, to the point that the neighbors begged my parents to buy me one of my own. I don't know why I wanted to play so badly, but I did, and I don't remember ever having to be forced to practice. My biggest problem with playing now is that I become obsessive with it, and it eats up huge amounts of my time. I just don't seem to be able to play unless I play at least 3 hours a day. These days I go back and forth between playing on a daily basis, then not playing at all for a while (although lately that has more to do with the exceediingly poor quality of the piano I now have).

I was more disturbed by the idea posited by a few posters that women do not have the ability to become a guitar god(dess), or a metal power drummer. I just don't think that's true - and to me the lack of female guitar gods is more reflective of a lack of interest from female players themselves and also the fact that certain genre's of music are very male-dominated.

Another little story. While I lived in Austin, I did sound for a while at a very popular club in the 80's. It is the only area where I ever experienced blatant sexism. First, I had a really hard time finding any other sound engineers who would teach me. The only one who would was the only other female sound person in Austin. Second, there were quite a few bands who became very upset the minute they found out I would be doing their sound. Just because I was female. Doing sound is a thankless job. The pay is low, and you're stuck there all night long. If the band sucks, they blame the sound person. You have a very short period of time to get the sound right - usually a minute or two. I remember one of these jerks who came in, talked to the male sound guy who told him I'd be doing the sound. The musician was extremely unhappy about that, gave me less than 10 seconds to get the sound right, then complained onstage. I walked off and he was stuck with the bartender doing his sound. I also experienced an audience member coming up and randomly turning knobs on the sound board. I felt at the time that there was a belief that women were just incapable of understanding anything electronic. Hopefully that's changed with the advent of computers.

[C Elegans]

Originally posted by VoodooDali
@Fable & CE: didn't mean to start a nature vs nurture debate regarding musical ability - it was a short piece of news I heard "somewhere" on TV this year... lol.

LOL, I was sure you weren't, I guessed you had in some way come in contact with the usual erranous media reports of genetically related findings...Oh, how I hate this "a gene for this" and "a gene for that" , when in reality we are talking about complex genetic networks mediated via our biology, and in constant interaction with the environment....

However, a swift search in Pubmed and Psychinfo revealed that as far as we know today, four factors are of importance for musical ability:

1. Support and encouragement from the environment (ie parents et)
2. Own motivation to play
3. Lots of practise
4. Heritable factors (ie genetic makeup)

So, it seems it has the same characteristics as most other human behaviour and features: it's a three-way interaction between genes, biology and environment.

[Littiz]

@Fable:

@Littiz, you're beginning to frighten me. I'd get a cross, but being a pagan, it probably won't do much.

I'm a pagan too, so we would probably stare at each other like idiots
But please spare me Mann!!!

I'm as far as possible from pop culture (don't even know what it is), but I think some psychological differences exist.
In average, of course.
I do think that the environment models the mind for the most part, though.

@Voodoo Dali:
You have misunderstood me.
I never thought that women aren't able to become good drummers.
Coordination, talent, inspiration, taste... women may have all that's needed to play this instrument.

They are indeed *able* to become even fast metal drummers.
They can pass the same physical training which I did (it just involves very specific and small muscles)
I say the same thing as you:
for some reason, women generally are not interested in
extreme kind of performances, so they don't waste/spend
time in exagerate trainings

Allow me to post this simple .mid to be clearer
720 shots/minute (nothing exceptional!!)
You may consider this a reacheable, hopefully sustainable speed for a metal drummer's feet.
(Actually most metal genres are barred for you if you don't at least reach it)
I've never seen a woman doing this with the pedals, this is a fact -in my experience at least-,
so no offence was meant to women. They're not interested, I repeat.
It was my point from the start

[VoodooDali]

Sorry Littiz, I misunderstood you.

An interesting question then, is why aren't women interested in being the next guitar god or metal speed drummer?

[CM]

From what i remember, Lenny Kravtiz has one hell of a drummer and she is female.

[Osiris]

Originally posted by fable
So if you believed in the inherent right of all people, regardless of sex, religion, nationality, or toenail color, to the same basic opportunities in life, feminist wouldn't be an appropriate term. What would be?

I prefer the term egalitarian.

[fable]

Originally posted by Littiz
for some reason, women generally are not interested in
extreme kind of performances, so they don't waste/spend
time in exagerate trainings

I suspect that's cultural training, simply because there's no genetic sexual predisposition to or against "extreme" performances. To give an example, drummer Buddy Rich may have been a wild extrovert both on and off the swing bandstand, but so was Tullalah Bankhead in her own field as actress/MC. The Tullalahs of the world probably didn't go much into swing drumming because the cards were stacked against 'em: swing bands, like jazz itself for ever so long, was a men's club. (There were a few exceptions, like the great Mary Lou Williams, but notably she was a pianist, and she wrote about her constant problems trying to get a gig.) Things started turning around in the bebop/small bands era of the 50s, but even so, female jazz instrumentalists still tended to be ostracized for quite a while.

[dragon wench]

Originally posted by VoodooDali
An interesting question then, is why aren't women interested in being the next guitar god or metal speed drummer?

I wonder if this has to do with socialisation? Women have long been expected to remain demure and modest. They have been taught to remain in the background, to not stand out... especially if they are, in a sense, competing with men. I know such attitudes have changed dramatically over the course of time, particularly since the 1960s and 1970s, but even so deeply-held notions like this tend to persist, if not overtly, than at a subconscious level.

I believe this applies to many areas, even those that have made some of the greatest strides in gender equality. In my own situation, I can attest that quite often when I have publicly engaged men in vigorous academic debate (and won ) it has often caused considerable discomfort.

I also think attitudes like this can extend to sexuality. Often, if a woman is overtly and unabashedly sexual, she is viewed as morally suspect.. Moreover, historically, women who exhibited an enjoyment of sex were considered whores. If they displayed the "bestial lust" of men they were aberrant. Clearly, these are generalisations, and they do not apply across the board, but they certainly existed within a particular mindset for a very long time.....

[Littiz]

Originally posted by VoodooDali

An interesting question then, is why aren't women interested in being the next guitar god or metal speed drummer?

Male are stupid and want competition

Many male musicians start in their teens, and the first years tend to believe that extreme performances
are a measure of quality in playing (I was one of them of course)
I don't see this attitude in girls, generally speaking.
Then with time you understand that a good musician is recognized from how he plays the *simpliest* things.
The things that even neophites can do, but... without something.

Fable's right about the environment, but still I think this hunger for competion plays a great role in many fields.
And men have more (or believe they have to, environment again? )

On a side note, my favourite drummer is still Nicko McBrain ... the only jazz/metal drummer in history!

[Scayde]

@ all: re; general socialization nd cultural influences being a factor in more women not being bent toward Heavy Metal or Hard Core Blues. I am not at all sure that this alone explains it. There are many female rockers who are very tomboyish. They possess many of the 'traditional' masculine characteristics. They are strong, centered, self directed, competitive, energetic, some even exibit some rather male phyisical characteristics, such as posture and stance on stage. That is not to say they are not feminine in their own way, but there is a huge difference between the stage pressence of most female artists and the ones who realy rock. I am refering to artists like Janis Joplin, Bonnie Rate, The Wilsons, Joan Jett, Lita Ford, Malissa Ethridge, or Debbie Harry. These are all considered great female rockers. All of them have a certain energy about them that sets them apart from other women. It is hard to explain, but their is an edge to their personalities that transmits through to their music. Still, as great as they are, IMHO, none of them can out rock the male bands of the same genre. Oh heck, I can't explain it. Guys just sound harder when they rock

[Yshania]

@Scayde, you have mentioned some goodies there! Also, not forgetting Siouxie Soux, Suzie Quattro, Texas, and indeed Pat Benatar. Oh! and how could we forget all the male rockers that like the female look? Of those female rockers named, most played instruments, generally the guitar or bass.

Not a rocker, but a very fine and talented musician, Eva Cassidy, toured with many big blues names, and only became famous in her own right after her premature death ()

In fairness to Littiz, though, there are few in the speed metal genre. It is a shame, but it is there.

[Scayde]

Originally posted by Yshania
@Scayde, you have mentioned some goodies there! Also, not forgetting Siouxie Soux, Suzie Quattro, Texas, and indeed Pat Benatar. Oh! and how could we forget all the male rockers that like the female look? Of those female rockers named, most played instruments, generally the guitar or bass.

Not a rocker, but a very fine and talented musician, Eva Cassidy, toured with many big blues names, and only became famous in her own right after her premature death ()

In fairness to Littiz, though, there are few in the speed metal genre. It is a shame, but it is there.

LOL....well, my list is very incomplete. And I agree, they are all fantastic. I have cd's of every one of them, but like you said, the number of power rockers are very few. Of the ones I mentioned, Janis and Joan are the only two that I think fit the bill. Maybe I am listening for a masculine quality in my music when I listen to hard rock. Like I said, I can't explain it

[Bloodstalker]

heavey power rock to a male is in part an extention of his ego. You know, the typical case of being the big dog in the yard. everyone wants to be the most potent, virile player out there. We are simply that shallow

[Scayde]

Originally posted by Bloodstalker
heavey power rock to a male is in part an extention of his ego. You know, the typical case of being the big dog in the yard. everyone wants to be the most potent, virile player out there. We are simply that shallow

Only part of your many charms

[VoodooDali]

An old fave of mine: Patti Smith