Theological Quandaries 101

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Tue May 15, 2001 11:07 pm

I try to wake up casually, and I get to see that this thread has exploded..... Which is a very good thing.

I don't know whether I can still add to the argument. Obviously most of you know a whole lot more on this subject than I do.

My biggest problem with certain religions is the way that they try to convert other people. You generally don't see atheists running around saying that there is no God. However some religions seem to forcefully want to make new converts. History is full of perfect examples of this.

I wish that more people could be like we are in this thread. Simply respect everyone's beliefs. It is amazing how often christians have told me that I was going to burn in hell for not believing in God.

fable · Post by **fable** » Tue May 15, 2001 11:10 pm

Rail writes:
I think it's great that they want to share something they have found that has helped them. If you suddenly knew the "truth" of man's existence, I'd hope you'd want to share it with all of us. I'm sure you'd meet the same resistances they are meeting in disbelief, unwillingness to accept, and general apathy. Maybe one of them (churches) out there is right.

The problem from my perspective, Rail, is that they don't simply want to share, as equal to equal, a solution that worked for them. Monotheistic missionaries, by definition, want to convert: each has the *only* solution (to existence, shall we say), and your solution, whatever it is, if different from theirs, is no solution at all. At best, you are misled; at worst, you are misled by demons. This kind of mindset is not conducive to dialog. The nicest people, bearing such a mindset, are willing to do the most horrifying things to win your soul in the name of their deity. It's been done many times before; it will certainly happen again.

I'm not saying any or every church is wrong, Rail. I *am* saying that, in some respects, every one of them is *right.* They miss the goal they aim for, IMO, and settle for the differences that occur in reaching it, mis-associating their own personal experiences for a completely enveloping universal one.

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Tue May 15, 2001 11:11 pm

Originally posted by Flagg:
I try to wake up casually, and I get to see that this thread has exploded..... Which is a very good thing.

I don't know whether I can still add to the argument. Obviously most of you know a whole lot more on this subject than I do.

My biggest problem with certain religions is the way that they try to convert other people. You generally don't see atheists running around saying that there is no God. However some religions seem to forcefully want to make new converts. History is full of perfect examples of this.

I wish that more people could be like we are in this thread. Simply respect everyone's beliefs. It is amazing how often christians have told me that I was going to burn in hell for not believing in God.

Yeah - me to, I seem to have outlive this thread, not being able to produce more input.
(of the logical kind, that is

)

There is no God, there is no God

Well, Flagg, then maybe we can finaly get a tan

Kayless · Post by **Kayless** » Tue May 15, 2001 11:32 pm

Originally posted by Flagg:
I try to wake up casually, and I get to see that this thread has exploded..... Which is a very good thing.

My biggest problem with certain religions is the way that they try to convert other people. You generally don't see atheists running around saying that there is no God. However some religions seem to forcefully want to make new converts. History is full of perfect examples of this.

I wish that more people could be like we are in this thread. Simply respect everyone's beliefs. It is amazing how often christians have told me that I was going to burn in hell for not believing in God.

Well-met Flagg. We’re all proud of this topic. As you well know, religions have many differentiating views on what is acceptable and what is not, as well as where people go when they die. I understand and acknowledge that many churches chastise outsiders for their ‘sinful ways’ in an attempt to scare them into conversion. But we cannot allow the more radical acts of some faiths to dissuade us from spirituality as a whole. Just because one priest is a fanatical autocrat does not necessarily mean the church he serves is corrupt. I believe when you look deep enough you’ll find something to admire in every religion, regardless of the inadequacy of it’s clergy. They all have something insightful to teach us, even if their priests sometimes loose this message in their zeal.

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: Kayless ]

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Tue May 15, 2001 11:56 pm

@fable- I have said in other threads that I hate religous people, because they give those of us who are religous a bad name. It's sad you have had such negative experiences, but I had had them as well, and I know it is a common thing. God doesn't condone fanaticism in any form, but it's funny how many fanatics act "in God's name". Not funny, but tragic, would be a better term.

I am on the other side. I *do* feel there is absolute truth out there. There *is* one church that is true, IMHO. However, that does not mean that someone without my point of view is evil and misled by demons. It means they have a different perspective. If they could see things from my view, perhaps they would act differently. Perhaps not. But, I do believe they will be judged according to what knowledge they *have* been given. I don't have all the truth or all the answers, so I hope I won't be judged as if I did. With truth comes responsibility.

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Wed May 16, 2001 12:18 am

Originally posted by Kayless:
I believe when you look deep enough you’ll find something to admire in every religion, regardless of the inadequacy of it’s clergy. They all have something insightful to teach us, even if their priests sometimes loose this message in their zeal.

I know that I am a non-believer. I am open minded, but I am a non-believer. It is just very scary when you at times listen to what some clergy members have to say. I will give a couple of examples without meaning disrepect to the relevant religions:

1. The Pope going to 3rd world countries and saying to his faithful followers that they can't use contraceptives..

2. A group of Imams in the Netherlands proclaiming that gay/lesbian are a danger to the world's society. His basic argument was that they could only lead humanity to extinction.

What scares me about this, is the potential influence that they have on their followers.

Having thought a lot about this topic the last 24 hours, I have come to reaffirm my personal beliefs. I should live my life to the fullest extent. Have fun in the things I do, and live according to my moral guidelines. In the case that God does not exist, I will have had a fun and enjoyable life. Also one that I will hopefully be proud of.

In the case that God does exist, the same will still apply. Let me ask a serious question, and I would like to get everyone's opinion on this. If God is all powerful and all that (no disrespect intented) then why does he need us to aknowldge him through prayer and other such means? Would God be that pitiful, that he would only allow people that acknowledge him into his heavenly kingdom? Is a person that leads an 'evil life' but repents at the end of it better than someone who has led a productive and 'good life' but doesn't acknowledge the existence of God?

-------------------
I guess I still had something to add....

Rail · Post by **Rail** » Wed May 16, 2001 12:50 am

@Flagg- I'm glad you haven't given up on this thread.

I don't think God needs prayer. I think *man* needs prayer. However, I don't believe in written, prepared prayers. Someone who does may have an entirely different perspective. I believe prayers should be heartfelt and should serve a purpose. I pray for strength, for calmness, for answers. I don't pray simply to acknowledge that God is my creator and I own him greatly. I thing he just might know that already.

Thus, God would not be that pitiful to only allow those who acknowledge him into his kingdom. However, I do believe those that might have know that he existed, or that they shouldn't kill, or rape, or cheat, or lie, and they did it anyway, never repenting even though they knew it was wrong, they will be judged accordingly. Going further than that requires particular beliefs, secular beliefs. I am christian, so I'm sure I'd have a different view of Christ's exact role in this than non-christians, so I'll leave it at this, without going into secular detail.

However, in your example, you talk about whether a church should condemn gays/lesbians. That depends on how this is handled and the particular behavior. Condemning anyone is wrong, but that may not change the fact that their behavior may be wrong. Most churches say killing is wrong. They say adultery is wrong. They say lying and cheating are wrong. However, does that mean we should hate all people who lie or cheat? Look, I believe drug abuse is wrong, but I can't condemn you for not believing like me. Again, if you had my perspective, you may or may not act differently. If I had your point of view, who's to say I'd act different than you. However, this may not change the fact that drug abuse is wrong, in the eyes of God. I think you will be judged off of what you are given and how you handled what you knew to be true. If you know lying is bad, and do it without remorse, you will be judged harsher than someone like me who knows its bad and slip up every now and then, but feel sorry and try to amend my ways (constantly

). Which direction are you going in your life? That's more important than how far you've gone.

Many churches preach hatred and intolerance and condemnation, and they give the rest of us religous people a bad name.

I'm rambling, so I'll shut up for a while.

Just a while, though.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed May 16, 2001 2:06 am

Originally posted by Rail:
<snip>
I think you will be judged off of what you are given and how you handled what you knew to be true. If you know lying is bad, and do it without remorse, you will be judged harsher than someone like me who knows its bad and slip up every now and then, but feel sorry and try to amend my ways (constantly ). Which direction are you going in your life? That's more important than how far you've gone.
<snip>

But what if I did something I didn't think evil, but you thought evil - would I then be evil in the eyes of you and/or your God.??

For instance - I lie in many different situations, I don't think it is evil - I do it for furthering my own cause, in what ever situation I'm in. So this makes me selfish, but to me, slefishness isen't a sin, it is what drives the world, this togehtere with lazyness.
These 2 emoitions are what keeps the world going.
The wheel, for instance, wouldn't (IMO) be invented if somebody wasen't lazy and didn't want to carry his prey home from a hunt.
Almost every invention was made to make life easier.
But in the eyes of the chrisitan God (and many other I would think) this "seems" evil - but maybe not to the person preforming it.

(IMO)

(Oh well, now I'm rambeling

)

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Wed May 16, 2001 2:34 am

@Xandax, I find that it is only important how you view yourself. Can you look yourself in the eyes when standing in front of the mirror. Are you proud of who you are and what you have done/accomplished?

I know that there are some problems with this way of thinking. Could a mass murderer look himself in the eyes and be proud of the guy that he is? I guess he can. Does that justify his actions? Clearly not.

Luckily we have intricate laws that deal with deviants such as these.

Another possibly interesting question. It is said that we are shaped as god (or something like that). What would be the consequence if we came across aliens? Would they be inferior because they are shaped differently? Another interesting thing is that human are held responsible for their actions both in the real world as probably in the spiritual world (if it truly exists). Who holds the power(s) to be responsible?

Doesn't this come close to the following: I am stronger and more powerful, thus I am better than you?

Remember: No disrespect intended... Just very curious.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Wed May 16, 2001 2:55 am

Originally posted by Flagg:
<snip>Remember: No disrespect intended... Just very curious.

Yeah - me too

Well with "aliens" in mente, that poses a nice little question towards religion.
But as I see it most clergy will simply "reinvent" the religion, to state that when God created the universe, he created aliens too

Otherwise I think that the discovery of life in space, will pose a great problem to religion, because then life isen't "sacred"/unik to earth, and therefore we have to adopt the fact than we are, as a matter of fact "Freaks of nature".
(Unless there are more Gods)

[ 05-16-2001: Message edited by: Xandax ]

Brink · Post by **Brink** » Wed May 16, 2001 3:59 am

Good job to everyone who has taken part in this discussion

.I'm afraid that I'm not so into religion to add much to all the other posts in this thread

Anyway,I feel that the toughest challenge that any religious person could face would be admitting to the flaws of one's own religion.I know that many people would gladly talk about the strengths and glory of their religion,yet they refuse to speak a single sentence about their religion's weakness.Missionaries who give others a choice of accepting or refusing their religion have a much tougher life ,since they should,by right, explain both the benefits and flaws of their religion to a person of another faith.I feel that this is important since that person would be making one of the most important decisions of his life, and he should know everything about the religion that he is about to convert to before making that decision

That's all I have to say for now (running out of time

).I will post more later if I have the time

.Once again,keep up the good work people

Flagg · Post by **Flagg** » Wed May 16, 2001 4:14 am

@Brink, What are referring to when you are talking about disadvantages?

Are you referring to the flaws of organizations surrounding religions? Or are you actually talking about guidelines of the actual faith?

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed May 16, 2001 6:44 am

Good morning.

Glad to see that this thread is alive and still civilized!

I was listening to a uber-right wing radio talk show host last night that (usually I don't listen too, waaaayyy too 'off-center' for me) but he made an interesting point about religion.

Regardless of whether you belong to any particular sect, or actively participate in their rituals, or whether or not you even believe in God per se if it wasn't for a history of religion where would any of us get our sense of morality (right and wrong)?

You take the cover off the book (Bible, Torah, Koran or whatever) and what you are left with is set of moral standards that, if adhered to, set the tone for a (mostly) civilized society. Without that civilization wouldn't be.

Darkpoet · Post by **Darkpoet** » Wed May 16, 2001 6:50 am

I am reading a book called American Holocaust. When christian missionaries, came to South America and into Central America. They were terriable to the indians in the name of God.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed May 16, 2001 6:53 am

Originally posted by Anatres:

You take the cover off the book (Bible, Torah, Koran or whatever) and what you are left with is set of moral standards that, if adhered to, set the tone for a (mostly) civilized society. Without that civilization wouldn't be.

Finally someone posted my belief. A means to control people.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed May 16, 2001 7:19 am

@Weasel; actually I wanted to convey a rather different concept than 'controlling people'. I wanted to convey the concept of a set of tenets that individuals could use for self-control.

Brink · Post by **Brink** » Wed May 16, 2001 7:22 am

Originally posted by Flagg:
[QBAre you referring to the flaws of organizations surrounding religions? Or are you actually talking about guidelines of the actual faith?[/QB]

Flagg-It could be both.What I'm saying is that there is really no perfect religion for everyone.Each religion could have a flaw that may alienate them from a certain group of people, and nobody should ever go around saying that their religion is the best for everyone(I've met people who do this in real life

).

Btw,I hope that I'm making sense

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed May 16, 2001 7:28 am

@Anatres.....I kind of figured that was the case...but you did cover my belief in a sense. That it's a means to control people and keep the world a somewhat livable place.

Anatres · Post by **Anatres** » Wed May 16, 2001 8:07 am

@Weasel; sorry I just have a problem with the general concept of 'controlling people'. I prefer to look at it as guidlines of behavior. That way 'free will' can still be exercised. The concept of control leads me to believe that I have no chioce.....

scully1 · Post by **scully1** » Wed May 16, 2001 8:17 am

Originally posted by Flagg:
It is said that we are shaped as god (or something like that). What would be the consequence if we came across aliens? Would they be inferior because they are shaped differently?

The meaning of being made "in the image of God" or "in the divine image" has nothing at all to do with physical appearance. It's a spiritual thing, meaning that, like God, we have free will, the power to create (according to our means as humans), the power of reason, etc. etc.