It's like a group of D&D high school virgins got together and made a video game

[RainSong]

Originally Posted by dcb

Just because it's sex or a cuss word doesn't mean it's mature. It comes across as nothing more than toilet humor, which is something I find detracts from the overall game experience.

I'm not "shocked" by any of this stuff, but childish toilet humor and excessive sex elements ruin the immersion factor. They are unneccesary and add nothing to the game.

Ofcourse the sex and cursing doesn't make this game mature - what makes The Witcher a mature cRPG (or if you prefer - more mature cRPG then 90% of other games from this genre) is that it bring up mature themes like racism, politics and so on. It seems you fail to notice it -_- What you alsow fail to notice is that sex and mature language fit very nicely in this game, (and what makes cRPG a good game is that it consists a lot of ''unnecessary'' things that ''add nothing to the game'' - nothing but depth)

Originally Posted by dcb

Not to mention the fact that there really isn't much that makes this game more than an average action RPG. Sure, it looks nice, but the long loading times, even longer cutscenes, simplistic combat, horrible/atrocious/butchered dialogue make this game sub-par, IMO.

If you don't like cutscenes then dont play games with story in them, instead go play some sport games or something and don't waste your time with cRPG. And what do you have with the dialogues? Give some example of it or stop throwing those empty words, The Witcher I'm playing has one of the best dialogues I've ever seen in comuter games.

The Witcher is such an ''average'' cRPG that it's obvious it's going to take it's right place in the canon of it's genre and people will enjoy it for years.

[fable]

Originally Posted by RainSong

If you don't like cutscenes then dont play games with story in them, instead go play some sport games or something and don't waste your time with cRPG.

Please stop creating strawmen. Dcb did not say a word about cutscenes as such: he criticized the long cutscenes in the game. So stop hitting him for things he isn't saying.

And what do you have with the dialogues? Give some example of it or stop throwing those empty words, The Witcher I'm playing has one of the best dialogues I've ever seen in comuter games.

Why are you picking on dcb, when several others here have had the very same reaction to the game dialog?

The Witcher is such an ''average'' cRPG that it's obvious it's going to take it's right place in the canon of it's genre and people will enjoy it for years.

Based on what amazing research were you able to acquire an avadavit of the future, written by tens of thousands of people claiming they were still enjoying the The Witcher? You know, there's nothing wrong with liking a game--but claiming that "everybody else likes that, same as I do!" when you have no evidence of this is very hollow, indeed.

[Xandax]

I can only disagree with most of the negative points in this game, but then again as they are purely subjective, that's expected.
As for the cut-scenes, then I've not found one which couldn't be skipped, so even if one dislikes them, they are avoidable, but well - that is purely subjective. I do not find them "too long", I find some fun, others interesting, thirds plot critical, and some just made me ponder until I read up on some lore.
Dialog, as mentioned in my other post in the other thread - is not chopped in my version. So either there is differences in versions, or you expect too much information to be given out constantly.
The loading times are long and can be an annoyance, but I have enough patience to wait some seconds for most things, so they do not actually bother me.


But like Monolith, I can't say I've found anachronistic flaws in this game as such - and would like to hear what have been found?


The Witcher is in my view a great game. Far superior to most other recent (and many older) RPGs. Well worth a try for an fan of RPGs so they can make up their own mind.

[cielaqu]

I have read the gamefaqs forum board, and I have a question, is there one English version of the game, or there is the US and the UK version?
As for the language, the game was based on the book and the language used in both is very similar (what a coincidence). In Polish it is stylized for medieval language and that goes for the bad language too. But since most of it is used unchanged nowadays (and that goes for other languages as well) it may give the out of place feelings. But the variety of the bad language is the other matter. As someone stated on the gamefaqs forum, there are many swear words in Polish, that are translated into the same word in English. I am no expert on bad language, but I can think of more than ten words that would translate in the F word. And all of them are used quite appropriately in the game. It would seem that Slavonic languages are more colourful than others (at least I haven’t heard any complaints on the Russian translation).
The game has its weak and strong sides and it was better received by someone who read the books. In Russian, where The Witcher was more widely known it was received very well (user rating over 85%) and I think translation was much better, because writers could based on the language used in books to give it more consistency.
I was amazed by how the fight looks. They have done really great job at capturing swordmasters moves. The dodge moves are great, specially the group ones. And using the time click moves fight is not so dull as in NWN or KOTOR (three styles ... Jedi Knight ... I like it).
Obstacles are annoying, but KOTOR was no different and I was able to live with that. Long loading times are real pain in the … but after adding 1 gig they are acceptable. It would seem that amount of memory is the main issue here. Beside I played games with longer loading times.
All in all it’s quite good game. If you look a bit down on its flaws (whatever they might be) you may find lots of things you like in cRPG.

[severian]

Originally Posted by dcb

It's like a group of D&D high school virgins got together and made a video game...

Hello, it's me - one of those D&D virgins that made The Witcher.

Originally Posted by dcb

...full of all the sex they never had, violence they never dished out, and cuss words their parents never let them say. Look, just because it contains elements of sex, extreme violence, and adult humor (and I use that term lightly) doesn't mean it's a "mature" game.

I hope, you just haven't played the game enough, or played it without enought attention to notice that it's mature not because of sex, violence & swearing; but because the game touches quite important issues: racism, ecology, terrorism, etc. Also, it's not us (developers) who invented this setting, it was created by Andrzej Sapkowski - a very experienced and quite old writer, who is sometimes compared to "Polish Umberto Eco" because of his vast knowledge and talent. I doubt he ever played D&D, and for sure he has children...

Originally Posted by dcb

To be honest, I stopped playing at "dwarf cock." Am I a prude? No. Do I want an immersive RPG? Yes. Do pop-culture references and modern cuss words ruin a medieval fantasy RPG for me? Yes.

Of course, I understand that it might be confusing for the first time (even Sapkowski first story was censored, because editor didn't understand "modern fantasy" idea). Just try to stop thinking about this as a "medieval world" (actually, medieval WAS only Europe - fantasy is not Europe, so it is at best quasi-medieval) but treat is rather as a modern literature (story), using fantasy only as a 'canvas' to speak about contemporary problems. It's much more appealing that just "high fantasy" world.

Originally Posted by dcb

Not to mention the incredibly awkward voice dialogue. Are the voices themselves good? Yes. Does the dialogue make sense and flow from topic to topic seemlessly? Absolutely not. It is incredibly poor in that sense. Maybe you can argue there's just something lost in the language translation, but really, I think most of us expected much more.

I can't judge English translation. Dialogs were trimmed (we had to shorten it by roughly 20% to meet agreements with ATARI), so maybe the process spoiled them slightly. It was not intended, we judged number of dialog lines incorrectly, and needed to adjust them according to agreements (and technical possibilitied). Editing included grammar correction, "Polish-like" expressions, redundant info and lots of minor changes. Hard to judge, if it's our or ATARI fault - rather I think it's first time someone did a huge Polish-->English game translation, and we needed to learn from mistakes. Actually English language is much more "compact" and precise, than Polish one - so usually Polish text is about 20% longer than English equivalent. It was something we knew from our localization experience, and it didn't work the other way.

Polish conversations are brilliant and, from what I've heard, English voice acting is quite good.

My personal advise – if you already bought The Witcher… give it second chance and try to play a little more. I promise you will find that it goes beyond “dwarf cock”

[Denethorn]

Originally Posted by RainSong

What I can't really understand is why so many people in US and western european countries have so big problem with computer games being _mature_ (is being mature a bad thing? I dont think so) and showing _normal_ things for mature people in them. I play computer games for more then 15 years and am bored with the childish approach to them and childish content in them. The Witcher was rated M (Mature) and to mature audience was it dedicated (the developers said it on many occasions). Normal adult person shouldn't be shocked by cursing or sex as these are probably normal parts of his life, so I really can't understand why so many people has problems seeing these in computer games (are computer games for children only? statistics show that most of the gamers are adult people...)

I really take issue with your point here. American censorship can be criticised for its hippocrisy or misplaced values (think Grand Theft Auto and the Hot Coffee uproar), but that has no reflection upon what dcb was trying to say. It is strikingly naive to say that sex and boobies constitutes a mature experience... adult yes, but mature?

As dcb pointed out, giggling high-schoolers can produce something incorporating sex and such like. This may make them "adult" in nature, but mature is a different word entirely. I have not had an awful lot of time to spend playing the Witcher since I purchased it, but I can say I find its treatment of more 'mature' themes to be wholly blunt and meaningless. As dcb pointed out, adult themes seem to have been thrust (no pun intended) into the game in an attempt to make it appear more thematically developed and complex. Ironically their attempts to distance the game from a mass marketed RPG instead resulted in a childish approach to these 'mature' themes.

[BuckGB]

Thanks for stopping by, Severian. It's always good to see a developer willing to respond to criticism about their game.

I thought I'd share a few opinions of my own on this topic. As I mentioned in my review, there are a few lines of "adult" dialogue in the game that will most likely spur a shaking of the head or a rolling of the eyes. It's tough to say if this is a side effect of the Polish to English translation (on top of the 20% reduction) or what the team had originally intended but, regardless, I never felt that it detracted from the overall game experience. These moments are few and far between and, aside from the randomly uttered "dwarf cock" and "balls itch" lines, are totally optional. If you're not trying to see how many notches you can put into Geralt's bedpost, then this really isn't an issue.

Just as I don't think the small number of lengthy cutscenes should be used to judge the whole game, I don't think these few lines of obscure dialogue should either. There are mature themes, difficult choices, and great dialogue embedded in The Witcher, but you're not going to really be able to experience them without putting some time into the game and making sure you understand the various factions and what they represent. The conflict between the Order of the Flaming Rose and Scoia'tael alone had me staring at a half dozen dialogue options for a minute or two trying to figure out how I wanted to react. While it might be typical for an RPG to tell the story of two opposing forces, it's not very often that you have the option to pick a side and participate in the slaughtering of innocents for the sake of some deep-seeded racial hatred.

I don't know how Sapkowski presents some of these issues in his novels, but I thought the game did a solid job of forcing me to pick between two evils on multiple occasions. By the time I was headed into Chapter Five, I couldn't have cared less about the few lines of lame dialogue I witnessed 30 hours earlier.

[Ulfang]

Originally Posted by dcb

It's like a group of D&D high school virgins got together and made a video game full of all the sex they never had, violence they never dished out, and cuss words their parents never let them say. Look, just because it contains elements of sex, extreme violence, and adult humor (and I use that term lightly) doesn't mean it's a "mature" game.

To be honest, I stopped playing at "dwarf cock." Am I a prude? No. Do I want an immersive RPG? Yes. Do pop-culture references and modern cuss words ruin a medieval fantasy RPG for me? Yes. When a game tries to use humor in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way, it can definitely work. Overlord did a good job of this. But when a game tries to use humor to be "tough" and "edgy" it really just comes off as pathetic and annoying.

Not to mention the incredibly awkward voice dialogue. Are the voices themselves good? Yes. Does the dialogue make sense and flow from topic to topic seemlessly? Absolutely not. It is incredibly poor in that sense. Maybe you can argue there's just something lost in the language translation, but really, I think most of us expected much more.

What a load of rubbish. Full of sex?? Hardly! The mature sex content is about 1% of the game! I find it a fun edition especially as you collect the tarot cards of your conquests like an achievements award system. Very amusing.

I can't see how minor things like the sexual content and swearing can ruin a game unless you are, infact, a prude and in that case why are you playing a mature game? I love the Battlestar Galactica series and their use of "frack" to replace the F word is just ridiculous in my opinion. I laughed at first but after a while it was just annoying. Did this spoil my enjoyment of the series? Not in the slightest it's just something minor that takes nothing away from the storyline.

If you don't like the game then fair enough that's your right. Stop playing (I believe you already have) but that should be an end of it. People who like it will continue to play while people that don't like it won't ... end of

[fable]

Originally Posted by Ulfang

What a load of rubbish. Full of sex?? Hardly! The mature sex content is about 1% of the game!

You may want to reread dcb's first paragraph you quoted. He's not saying what you claim. When a person uses "it's as if," "it's as though," or "it's like," they don't mean the subsequent clause to be taken literally. If I were to write that "When I read laudatory reviews of Oblivion, it's like the writers were all chained, mindless slaves ordered under threat of the lash to create realms of praise for some despotic ruler," I don't actually mean that any of those (mindless) writers were chained and threatened with physical violence by some D&D overlord to produce their material. I can't say dcb's phrasing is very clear, but he/she appears to be stating that game designers thought they'd seem really mature by including sex and violence.

If you don't like the game then fair enough that's your right. Stop playing (I believe you already have) but that should be an end of it.

If they want to complain by offering their views in a reasonable and coherent fashion, they can do so, and we provide the threads for that purpose. They might well reply to you that if you don't like a thread holding their complaints, it's your right to stop reading their comments--and that should be an end of it.

For myself, I find this discussion interesting, in the way it shows how people with differing standards arrive at very different conclusions regarding the same product. So I'm not about to stop reading, here. I hope others on all sides of this issue won't stop, and won't stop posting, either.

[Ulfang]

Originally Posted by fable

You may want to reread dcb's first paragraph you quoted. He's not saying what you claim. When a person uses "it's as if," "it's as though," or "it's like," they don't mean the subsequent clause to be taken literally. If I were to write that "When I read laudatory reviews of Oblivion, it's like the writers were all chained, mindless slaves ordered under threat of the lash to create realms of praise for some despotic ruler," I don't actually mean that any of those (mindless) writers were chained and threatened with physical violence by some D&D overlord to produce their material. I can't say dcb's phrasing is very clear, but he/she appears to be stating that game designers thought they'd seem really mature by including sex and violence.



If they want to complain by offering their views in a reasonable and coherent fashion, they can do so, and we provide the threads for that purpose. They might well reply to you that if you don't like a thread holding their complaints, it's your right to stop reading their comments--and that should be an end of it.

For myself, I find this discussion interesting, in the way it shows how people with differing standards arrive at very different conclusions regarding the same product. So I'm not about to stop reading, here. I hope others on all sides of this issue won't stop, and won't stop posting, either.

"It's as if it's full of sex?" Okkkkk ... well still it's not .. clearly. Personally I find there are too few games with mature content and I don't just mean sexual experiences. I'm sick of unrealistic games that don't tackle realistic issues. when you play a fantasy game you can't judge it by modern day standards. I think the adult themes have been handled very well and quite maturely.

I still disagree with most of what dcb has said but if you re-read my comments I haven't told him to stop posting or discussing at any point. I merely suggested that there are going to be players who like and dislike such games and players who adore such games. In my expericen from all the forums I post on the game is clearly adored more than hated.

[fable]

He did post to be provocative, true, but he also had real content. I hope he'll show up again and defend that statement about the sex and violence--though I suspect his argument was qualitative, not quantitative.

So let me ask this, without meaning to change subject: if you had to name one outstanding positive feature in The Witcher, what would it be?

Points for saying "It isn't Oblivion."

[Xandax]

Originally Posted by fable

<snip>
So let me ask this, without meaning to change subject: if you had to name one outstanding positive feature in The Witcher, what would it be?
<snip>

For me, the story was my main drive to play through the game. I wanted to see where it went and why and how.
I could care less about the sexual content in the game, it is not massive if you choose to play around it which you can for the vast majority of it. It is however something many will focus on when they'll express why they dislike it, but if anything the racial tensions in the game actually play a hugely larger part. Heck, you can even supply drugs to some NPCs to get what you want.
There is so much more to this game then simply that you can bed women if you choose, which I think is why some react as they do to the OP's opinions which I can only disagree with having played through the game.

[dcb]

Hi, I decided to check this thread and answer some of your questions. I still haven't played the game since I last posted, but I'll see what I can do.

Originally Posted by Ulfang

"It's as if it's full of sex?" Okkkkk ... well still it's not .. clearly. Personally I find there are too few games with mature content and I don't just mean sexual experiences.

I guess it all depends upon your definition of mature and what you, as a gamer, expect from that. To me, being mature doesn't necessarily mean full of adult themes like sex, violence, and cuss words. I'm not entertained by TV shows like Jackass and the like, nor am I entertained by games like Grand Theft Auto or, say, X-rated porn games where the goal is to have sex with women. I attribute elements from The Witcher, which is full of phrases such as "dwarf cock," "balls itch," "****/****," etc to shows like Jackass. I attribute the mini-games of trying to bed women to such infamous gems as Lesiure Suit Larry. While I have no problem with adult-oriented themes, I consider Jackass and Leisure Suit Larry to rate up there with Beavis and Butthead in terms of "maturity," and I expect that the same people who enjoy The Witcher are the same people who are responsible for making shows like Jackass popular. Sort of pseudo-maturity, if you will. To me, those elements just come across as quite immature, perhaps popular with the same crowd that I associate with teenage angst and rebellion (hence the joking reference to D&D high school virgins).

Originally Posted by Ulfang

I'm sick of unrealistic games that don't tackle realistic issues.

Then why don't you play educational games if you want realism? Sorry, but I don't see a world of elves, dwarves, and magic where the protagonist cuts down thousands of foes, sleeps with two dozen women without fear of disease or impregnation, and travels through a world where "dwarf cock" and "balls itch" are common phrases represents realism.

To sum up my views, I wholeheartedly understand why this game is popular. It is definitely different than anything I've seen in recent memory. I think it's popularity is due in large part to the fact that gamers are hungry for something, anything, that's different from the generic/dry strain of RPGs that we have seen lately. However, it has enough weak points for me not to be able to overlook them when forming an opinion about the game. Too often, I think, gamers get placated by a good story. Why can't we have both? Great gameplay should not be sacrified for a great story, and vice versa. Even with the "mature" argument aside, clunky controls, unrecognizable inventory icons, simplistic combat, long loading times, long cutscenes, butchered dialogue, FedEx quests, and a non-interactive world are ALL elements that negatively contribute to many gamer's enjoyment of the game. And these are not just complaints I have - many people have voiced similar opinions.

[Xandax]

Yes, it depends on definition of mature, however if you consistently focuses on the sexual content and the few reference to dwarf anatomy as the "mature content", then you are intentionally bypassing a large part of the games story which involves racial tensions to a degree not usually depicted in a RPG, drug abuse and other such elements which exists an-mass.

...and I expect that the same people who enjoy The Witcher are the same people who are responsible for making shows like Jackass popular.

Well, this is completely wrong and just completely invalidates your entire post.
I care less about Jackass, I do not care much about "lewd" humour etc, yet I throughouly enjoyed The Witcher. What is your explanation for that?

You focus on one minor aspect of the game, claiming it is "as if" it is the majority and the game is made by "high school virgin D&D players". I'm sorry, but what constructive elements you attempted to present are completely lost in my book by your attempts at veiled generalized personal attacks.
So if you want us to take you serious, you'd do well to return that courtesy.

Great gameplay should not be sacrified for a great story, and vice versa. Even with the "mature" argument aside, clunky controls, unrecognizable inventory icons, simplistic combat, long loading times, long cutscenes, butchered dialogue, and a non-interactive world are ALL elements that negatively contribute to anyone's enjoyment of the game.

No - doens't contribute negative to anyones enjoyment ... it does to your enjoyment
As have been said prior - inventory icons are not "unrecognizable" to me, after I have played the game for a while. Simplistic combat - heck most combat in any RPG is simplistic. Click this enemy, click this ability. That they simply choose another route does not mean the game is automatically bad.
Long loading is a problem yes, but waiting 10-20 seconds does not mean the end of the world for everybody. Long cutscenes which you can skip, unlike in many other games, and which to me are actually quite interesting is also not a negative factor.....

So please do yourself a favour, speak only for yourself, no masked attempts at personal attacks by derogatory putting down an entire playerbase and if you want to judge the games "mature" content on your preconceived notions of the developers or your sole focus on sexual content then please be prepared to conscider the rebuttals.

[dcb]

Originally Posted by Xandax

Yes, it depends on definition of mature, however if you consistently focuses on the sexual content and the few reference to dwarf anatomy as the "mature content", then you are intentionally bypassing a large part of the games story which involves racial tensions to a degree not usually depicted in a RPG, drug abuse and other such elements which exists an-mass.

"racial tensions to a degree not usually depicted in a RPG"

Racial tensions are not usually depicted in an RPG? I always thought dwarves vs elves and half-orcs versus everyone else was pretty standard. Games like WoW where you have the Horde vs the Alliance are racially motivated. Most D&D settings have very high racial tensions. I can imagine there a plenty more examples, but racial tensions in fantasy RPGs is probably pretty common.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Well, this is completely wrong and just completely invalidates your entire post.
I care less about Jackass, I do not care much about "lewd" humour etc, yet I throughouly enjoyed The Witcher. What is your explanation for that?

You're right, I was generalizing.

Originally Posted by Xandax

No - doens't contribute negative to anyones enjoyment ... it does to your enjoyment

Yup, I edited this after I posted my response and apparently after you quoted me. I changed it from "anyone's" to "many gamer's."

Originally Posted by Xandax

As have been said prior - inventory icons are not "unrecognizable" to me, after I have played the game for a while.

Okay, but they are to me, and to many other people. *shrug* I'd assume if a large portion of a game's userbase commented that an aspect of a game was less-than-satisfactory that the game's developers would want to hear about it and take it into consideration for possible fixes and/or changes in future games.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Simplistic combat - heck most combat in any RPG is simplistic. Click this enemy, click this ability. That they simply choose another route does not mean the game is automatically bad.

I didn't say it's automatically bad. It is, however, less than ground-breaking and not anything I consider a "masterpiece" as so many fanbois are quick to vote.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Long loading is a problem yes, but waiting 10-20 seconds does not mean the end of the world for everybody.

It takes several minutes for me. Maybe you can blame me for not having a $3,000 state-of-the-art system to play on, but I meet or exceed all minimum system requirements, so my complaint is quite valid.

Originally Posted by Xandax

Long cutscenes which you can skip, unlike in many other games, and which to me are actually quite interesting is also not a negative factor.....

My problem with cutscenes is this - game developers often use cutscenes to relay the game's story or specific details about a character or other event. If I wanted to watch a movie, I'd watch a movie. If I wanted to interact with the environment, I'll play a game. Sitting idly by while a game relays it's story through a non-interactive cutscene, no matter how good it looks, is akin to watching a movie. Games are supposed to be interactive. In the few hours that I played The Witcher, the majority of time was spent watching cutscenes. If you choose to skip them, you miss out on story elements or perhaps plot points or even what you're supposed to do next.

Originally Posted by Xandax

So please do yourself a favour, speak only for yourself, no masked attempts at personal attacks by derogatory putting down an entire playerbase and if you want to judge the games "mature" content on your preconceived notions of the developers or your sole focus on sexual content then please be prepared to conscider the rebuttals.

Any generalizations I make about the players or developers doesn't invalidate the negative aspects of the game I have been discussing. You're right though, in that generalizations are not needed, and I will remove them from future posts. I was pretty annoyed by The Witcher after reading such glowing reviews. I guess I expected more/different than what I actually got.