A really good attribute point allocation...

[UserUnfriendly]

I am very happy with the

10 str
15 dex (+5 points as you level up)
10 con
10 int
16 wis
14 cha

build, enough to actually talk about it...i've tried 3 different attribute point builds.. and play tested them enough to know that this new build of mine is really remarkably effective...

ok, first of all, the philosophy behind many builds, like max 14 point builds, is that you lose points when going above 14...so rather than pushing certain attributes beyond 14, you spread them out...which is a perfectly valid point of view, however, to me it has a glaring flaw...you never push up one attribute to really high levels, you become a generalist, and while its perfectly possible to rely on force valor and items to get really good stats for the attributes you use, like wisdom or str, i like having ok stats for most attributes, and uber stats for the ones i rely on...

this build emphasizes dex over strength..i recently playtested a str max build, str 15+5, and got killed by swarms of sand people...its a build that really excells at killing anything in its path, but defense was really lousy..

so this build emphasizes long lasting staying power, with the ability to dodge any incoming attacks, thus you're safe long enough to do major damage with the killer weapons you pick up in the game...

now the real trick with this build is that this build is equally good for guardian, consular and sentinel...because of the 16 wis and 14 dex...

you lose 2 points by having wis go above 14, but you get +5 mod to OFFENSIVE forcepowers economically...offensive save rolls use both the wis and cha modifiers added to your level against the opponent's dc, so for 2 points lost in inefficiency, you get +5 mod to enemies resisting your force powers...and for guardians with low force power reserves, the +5 mod means you get 9 force points per level, so now you can cast many force valors, without worry...the +5 mod for consulars is really great, for obvious reasons...for sentinels, i deliberately chose wis to be 16, since that is a +3 to will save, giving you better will save...which is in line with a sentinel's philosophy of defense, defense, defense...(of course the high dex is very much in line with sentinel defensive strategy..)

why 10 int??? viewpoints in the bioware forum proposes that its hard being the jedi with 8 int....i can't deal with my pc having the brains of a gizka... but if you want, you can put the 2 points into con...

con can be boosted with the toughness series and/or implants...

finally, the high defense means that it usually will be greater than str, thus +5 to attacks is pretty nice...and in taris, if you decide to use blasters over melee weapons, this build is really nice...and according to the description for dex in the attributes screen, grenade effectiveness is governed by dexterity (whether or not that's true is rather an interesting question) so you get good grenade ability right off...also quite important in taris...

this build is quite effective in a variety of strategies, for the blaster toting jedi, for a force using guardian, for a fighting consular, and a high defense sentinel...

please share your favorite attribute point distributions in this thread..be sure to provide rational for each choice, because its the reasoning thats really interesting...

[jeremiah]

Hi UserUnfriendly. I seriously doubt Dexterity should affect grenade throwing. I don't see any attack rolls done when grenades are thrown. The only thing important I notice is that targets should be stationary. I do see opponents roll (I think reflex save) against certain effects and saves against damage whether half or full.

I do agree Sand people can be a handful to a solo character but not to a party that has a Jedi with Insanity. I always pick that forcepower line now for Bastila when I pick her up in Taris. Or for a solo run, just Speed and run away upon triggering a spawn point. Bait, divide and conquer. Or run up to them, whop an offensive power from a distance then run away at speed until they stop chasing. Guerrilla warfare at its finest .

Against the rancors, I prefer Stasis field by Jolee .

[UserUnfriendly]

[QUOTE=jeremiah]Hi UserUnfriendly. I seriously doubt Dexterity should affect grenade throwing. I don't see any attack rolls done when grenades are thrown. The only thing important I notice is that targets should be stationary. I do see opponents roll (I think reflex save) against certain effects and saves against damage whether half or full.

I do agree Sand people can be a handful to a solo character but not to a party that has a Jedi with Insanity. I always pick that forcepower line now for Bastila when I pick her up in Taris. Or for a solo run, just Speed and run away upon triggering a spawn point. Bait, divide and conquer. Or run up to them, whop an offensive power from a distance then run away at speed until they stop chasing. Guerrilla warfare at its finest .

Against the rancors, I prefer Stasis field by Jolee .[/QUOTE]

i agree with insanity...that's always been my pick for lightsiders...since the cost even when max light side is so low, you hardly notice it...

but i was testing out my new str guardian, and went pure melee...

i suspect if i had used brejik's belt, the damage might have been lot less..i think gaffi sticks use blunt damage...or a melee shield, which i typically don't keep anyway, waiting for the mandalorian power shield, my favorite until i get some prototype varpine shields...

rancours i recall being vulnerable to insanity too...

really, for disabling anything in the game, i much prefer insanity over all other powers...stasis i hardly ever use, and push is a direct damage power for me, mostly...or when jumping around..

[MalaksBane]

There isn't that much advantage either way, most advances in the total power of your character come from it's character level and items.

A character with 10/15/10/10/16/14 at the start, ending on 10/20/10/10/16/14 is not much different, in the important area's, from one that starts with 10/14/12/14/14/14 and ends on 10/18/12/14/14/14 plus one point spare to even out an odd bonus. The 'focussed' build gets one point more in attack, defense and forcepower-DC, which is usefull, but not decisive.

I try to take equipment bonus and the Mastery bonus into account. A starting build like above would then end on 10/16/12/14/16/18 (AB+3, AC+3, FDC+7 ) for a consular, or 10/18/16/14/16/14 for a sentinel.

I find it hard to find a decent, optimal distribution, with stats > 14. 10/15/10/10/16/14 would end with 10/20/10/10/16/17 (AB+5, AC+5, FDC+6) for a consular.

My preference gets a lot of skills, which I like, the sentinel's high Con adds usefull VP and a better save against critical hits, the consular gets more powerfull use of forcepowers.

If I add in equipment, +10 DEX and +10 WIS:

10/14/12/14/14/14 -> 10/18/16/14/14/14 -> 10/28/16/14/24/14 : 0/+9/+3/+2/+7/+2
10/15/10/10/16/14 -> 10/20/13/10/16/14 -> 10/30/13/10/26/14 : 0/+10/+1/0/+8/+2

10/14/12/14/14/14 -> 10/18/12/14/14/18 -> 10/28/12/14/24/18 : 0/+9/+1/+2/+7/+4
10/15/10/10/16/14 -> 10/20/10/10/16/17 -> 10/30/10/10/26/17 : 0/+10/0/0/+8/+3

It is all preference, I like to be able to complete tasks and quests that require skills and some can only be done by the PC. That is something you can not express in modifiers to int and wis.

you lose 2 points by having wis go above 14, but you get +5 mod to OFFENSIVE forcepowers economically...offensive save rolls use both the wis and cha modifiers added to your level against the opponent's dc, so for 2 points lost in inefficiency, you get +5 mod to enemies resisting your force powers...

This incorrect, you spent 4 points to boost the DC of your forcepowers by one, not five, 14/14 on Wis/Cha yields a +4 bonus to DC, 16/14 yields a +5 bonus, the difference is one and not five.

[Koreforce]

It's always good to try to keep your skills down below 14 at the start. Optimally, you should have one skill at 15 or 16 at character creation. I've found that a 12/15/14/12/14/12 build is great for a number of different styles. People say you need strength, but lightsabers also take their "to hit" rolls from dexterity, so strength isn't that necessary. If you REALLY think strength should go out the window, then drop it down to 10 and raise whatever else you like. The thing about going above 14 at character creation is that it costs 2 attribute points for something you can raise for 1 point later in the game. This build tends to lean a little more towards actual combat, and since there are plenty of implants, belts, and masks out there to raise your STR and DEX, then you don't need to worry about being too "generalized", because when the numbers get that high, a single point becomes far less significant compared to the whole.

[jeremiah]

Is that 12/15/14/12/14/12 strength/dex/con/wis/int/cha? Since an intelligence score of 12 doesn't yield the player anything except a +1 bonus when using certain skills. Certainly not more skill points

[UserUnfriendly]

[QUOTE=jeremiah]Is that 12/15/14/12/14/12 strength/dex/con/wis/int/cha? Since an intelligence score of 12 doesn't yield the player anything except a +1 bonus when using certain skills. Certainly not more skill points [/QUOTE]

nope for all classes you need a 14 int to increase the number of skill points per level up...

i have to agree that skill points are so nice...

playing a cheated guardian with high skills...and hacking into computers and repairing robots really add to the fun of the game...

its all a matter of preference...i really like having one or two stats high, and am willing to take a penalty for it...

other people like a more balanced distribution...

now its not utterly futile to have high stats in one catagory...like i said, there are two schools...using devices or points to compensate for a weakness, or boosting an already high attribute to very high levels, enjoying a specialization taken to really powerful levels..

i obviously prefer the latter...

the 14 builds focus on removing weaknesses, i like focusing on improving a strength...

[sun_facer]

I am glad to see some number crunching here.

May i ask to know the 'To hit" for a high dex Jedi Guardian?

I personalyl prefer a high strength Jedi. I placed 14 into dex. The rest into strength. I have 21 total in strength at level 20. Together with the erm... dominating item... I have lots of strength. If i remembered clearly, at level 20, my attack rating is 32/30. Should be right..

My arguement for not having such high defense is simple - it helps the character to dodge in most battles, saving the need to heal. However, even with low defense, it is still possible to get through most battles easily.

However, to me, i find that high defense does not help in battles that are difficult to get through.
Spoiler
Malak.
He uses force storm and throw lightsaber. Defense have not much here. Together with the fact that high dex chars have lower damage, you have to stay in this fight longer... perhaps too long.
StarForge driods.
Fry them with Stun Droid. No need to fight.
Mandalorians.
They seem to hit, even with a high defense. If one is serious about avoiding getting hit, wear Calo's armour. Why waste all the attributes on dex and suffer on taris as a melee fighter?
Sith Grenadiers.
Most of the damage I take from these buggers are not melee hits but from the darn grenades they toss. Especially those thermal detonators. Defense will not help. I think reflex save does.
Sand People.
They hit hard and fast. You may have high defense. But ur party members dun have. This means tat you will have all three of them on your back real soon without help.

These are the battles that I think are the crucial ones. The others do not really matter. Defense being high or low, you still can go through it. In fact, has anyone noticed the defense on the wookie? If you use him, you will realise that he is a great melee fighter... despite low defense.

Anyway, my idea is this. take ur enemies down before they take you down. I agree that it is more expensive to boost an attribute beyond 14 at creation. But having high strength means high damage. A +2 extra damage seems like nothing. But realise this - double-wield, speed and flurry means that it is an extra +8 damage per turn. In two turns, it's +16. That's almost like having 4.5 attacks per round.

A high strength jedi guardian has only 24 defense at level 20. How he can deal roughly 15-40 damage a hit. How much defense does a high dex jedi have? And how much lesser a probability will that jedi have to avoid damage?
More importantly, will that extra defense help in major battles?

[Jack Dell]

Some valid points for some mayor battles. Especially Malak. However I have to disagree. Very high dex means you never ever get hit, not even in these battles, except for malak. It really all comes down to malak. The game is very easy up till then. All the more so with high defense. Malak is the stress test on characters to see how well you made him/her. It is still easy enough so that if you load up on shields and stims you can beat him relatively easy. But to not get hit by malak, whose attack bonus is very very high means building a character that focuses exclusively on defense and not much fun to do.

But this might be the only scenario in the whole game in which strength is without a doubt more useful than dex. That and perhaps some of the larger beasts. And I definately stand beside balanced characters, because a character with no large weaknesses will be able to adapt better. Example, rancors can be paralyzed with force powers, eliminating the need for either large dex or strength. In the case of malak, if you have plague like any smart force user does, along with insanity, he will barely even be able to save against it. And its not like you need crazy initial stat distribution. In the end, its the equipment choice, feats and force powers that really make a difference. Stat placement is important for Taris, but it is only really really important if you are soloing the game, otherwise spreading stats is perfectly reasonable.

Summary: your strong points at the end of the game will not be determined so much by your stat placement at the beginning but by attribute point allocation throughout the game and equipment and feats and powers. It is better that you minimize weakspots by placing attribute points in the places you know you are not going to focalize during the game in improving, like for example constitution or intelligence or whatever.

[sun_facer]

I understand what you are saying. Balanced characters are indeed a smoother ride. In fact, I like 14/14/14/10/14/12 at creation too.

My arguements for high strength over high dex is after all, due to my own inclinations towards the offensive. I like to see damage 120-160 per turn. There is nothing wrong with a high dex jedi.

But since we are all here to share, mind if i ask - how much defense are we talking about?

an example I have is a lvl5fighter-lvl15guardian. Attack rating 33/35. Defense 24. Damage 16-41. The +8 to strenght is becoz of erhem.. u know.. that item. So, just to justify what I meant, I did not mean having 18 points in strength right at creation. Afterall, anything beyond 14 at creation cost 2 points to raise.

In this website's strategy guide, under "choosing stats" it is stated that +1 str mod gives +2 to attack instead of only +1 compared to a dex mod. I dunno how true that is.

[UserUnfriendly]

[QUOTE=sun_facer]In this website's strategy guide, under "choosing stats" it is stated that +1 str mod gives +2 to attack instead of only +1 compared to a dex mod. I dunno how true that is.[/QUOTE]

not true at all..
str gives one point to attack and one point to damage
dex gives one point to attack and one point to defense

(per mod bonus point, of course)

actually i've switched over into the dex camp, i really think a high dex really helps out...by mid game, you've already got good powerful crystals that do killer damage, and thus the bonus to damage becomes less and less important...with dex you get the all important bonus to attack, and your defenses go up...

the only combo that can afford high strength is a 6/14 scoundrel guardian...improved scoundrel luck and eventually jedi sense and using armor you can get away with low dex.

[jeremiah]

Make that 7/13 scoundrel/guardian for that extra sneak attack oomph. Pair him up with a disabling power concentrated Jolee and Mission with 34 dexterity (Dark Jedi blaster deflection bonuses didn't seem to be too much of a problem) and +6 attack bonus Baragwin Ion-x rifle and you are cooking.

Defense of 30 with 30 strength at the end due to Master Duelling. Still prefer high strength especially for the stun effects you are able to induce. Malak takes one round to dispatch with master speed. Just went around force breaching the batteries after plaguing him and you never miss low dexterity. I believe the attack bonus was 33 at the end before stims and master speed. Damage was 18 to 43 per hit (could have gotten higher crystal combo and at times I liked using the Baragwin assault blade for max 47 damage per hit). With the additional sneak attack damage plus Missions rapid shots, nothing could stand up to the team. Even went through the whole star forge on Difficult.

[UserUnfriendly]

[QUOTE=jeremiah]Make that 7/13 scoundrel/guardian for that extra sneak attack oomph. Pair him up with a disabling power concentrated Jolee and Mission with 34 dexterity (Dark Jedi blaster deflection bonuses didn't seem to be too much of a problem) and +6 attack bonus Baragwin Ion-x rifle and you are cooking.

Defense of 30 with 30 strength at the end due to Master Duelling. Still prefer high strength especially for the stun effects you are able to induce. Malak takes one round to dispatch with master speed. Just went around force breaching the batteries after plaguing him and you never miss low dexterity. I believe the attack bonus was 33 at the end before stims and master speed. Damage was 18 to 43 per hit (could have gotten higher crystal combo and at times I liked using the Baragwin assault blade for max 47 damage per hit). With the additional sneak attack damage plus Missions rapid shots, nothing could stand up to the team. Even went through the whole star forge on Difficult.[/QUOTE]

try this...

master speed
insanity/stasis (to set them up for sneak attack damage)
two lightsabres, with nextor crystals and solari/upari
master power attack..

ok, i am using a cheated scoundrel guardian with sneak attack IX and 23 str...

when you got master speed, and you use master power attack, with keen lightsabres, you can get a natural critical hit one out of every 5 attacks (threat range 17-20) while executing a power attack...

now i disable a group with insanity, so every hit is a sneak attack...

so sometimes, you get a sneak/critical hit/power attack...

i've hit enemies with 60-90 damage PER HIT on the average...

and i've hit several times OVER 100 points of damage PER HIT...

my highest ever 120 points of damage...

NOT PER ROUND, PER HIT...

when you hit a dark jedi with monster attacks like that, they don't just die, they sort of crumple and sigh...

[jeremiah]

That's just it UserUnfriendly . You HAVE to cheat in Sneak attack 9 to get that high a damage. I settled for what you could get at level 7 scoundrel but would get between 80 to 90 damage pretty often per hit anyways.

[sun_facer]

Whoa... 30 str, 30 dex.... how about the rest of the attributes? 8?
I mean, even with the +5 items... still hard to hit that figure. Unless you mean with valor.

Dun mind me asking again... how much defense are we talking about? I get hit even with a defense of 26 (+4 from speed). The most defensive character I have is a lvl4scout-lvl16guardian, with uncanny dodge 1 and saves of 23/26/21. walked away from several grenades and rarely ever suffered insanity or poison or horror.
Possible spoiler
BUT... i still get whacked silly by the tarentateks and the rancors when tanking for my party. I still get mauled by the swarms of sand people. I notice that Bendak misses more with his power attack. The mandalorians hit less too. But hey, I still get mauled with a defense of 30 (26+4).

There are times when I even sacrifice the usage of master flurry just to prevent the -1 to defense. They still score.

So... when you mean dun get hit by enemies, how much defense are we talking about? 35? 40?

I have seen what Sneak Attack can do. But that is not from default attacks. 120 in a single hit is awesome indeed. How often does that happen? How many attacks is possible per turn with that setup?

I usually have 23/21 "to hit" by char lvl 14. With speed and flurry, it's 8-31 per hit. 4 hits a turn. That's 32 - 124 everytime in battle. How often does sneak attack occur in battle?

[jeremiah]

Where did you get 30 strength and 30 dexterity? I never got both stats that high. I was able to attain 30 defense with a 30 strength character thru the robes on Korriban, improved scoundrel's luck, jedi sense, and master duelling plus judicious use of stims (gets a little higher with master speed). Could have gone with advanced alacrity implant plus the special +1 dexterity visor for 6 dexterity boost and 3 defense or gone with the Combat sensor +2 dex and the Advanced sensory implant for another +2 for +4 dex boost. Prefer the Bothan sensory visor and Advanced combat implant (for meelee weapon specialization) when using baragwin assault blade or Sith regenerator and Advanced stabilizer mask when using lightsaber against Force wielders.

[UserUnfriendly]

[QUOTE=sun_facer]Whoa... 30 str, 30 dex.... how about the rest of the attributes? 8?
I mean, even with the +5 items... still hard to hit that figure. Unless you mean with valor.

Dun mind me asking again... how much defense are we talking about? I get hit even with a defense of 26 (+4 from speed). The most defensive character I have is a lvl4scout-lvl16guardian, with uncanny dodge 1 and saves of 23/26/21. walked away from several grenades and rarely ever suffered insanity or poison or horror.
Possible spoiler
BUT... i still get whacked silly by the tarentateks and the rancors when tanking for my party. I still get mauled by the swarms of sand people. I notice that Bendak misses more with his power attack. The mandalorians hit less too. But hey, I still get mauled with a defense of 30 (26+4).

There are times when I even sacrifice the usage of master flurry just to prevent the -1 to defense. They still score.

So... when you mean dun get hit by enemies, how much defense are we talking about? 35? 40?

I have seen what Sneak Attack can do. But that is not from default attacks. 120 in a single hit is awesome indeed. How often does that happen? How many attacks is possible per turn with that setup?

I usually have 23/21 "to hit" by char lvl 14. With speed and flurry, it's 8-31 per hit. 4 hits a turn. That's 32 - 124 everytime in battle. How often does sneak attack occur in battle?[/QUOTE]

urm...i cheat...23 in everything...

with master speed 4 attacks per turn..if you disable them using insanity/stasis/push series, average damge is 40-60 per hit...just once in a while, you do a massive natural critical hit+power attack+sneak attack, and you go

"WHOA!!!"

don't worry about the defenses...i have around 40 defenses, if you factor in master scoundrel luck and master jedi sense for the xbox, which doesn't show them as stats, and rancors, sand people and taranaks still hit me...they have some really obscene attack stats, like around 34 for terenaks...

and even a sith trooper can roll a natural 20, which is automatic hit..



sneak attack happens with every hit if you disable them with insanity, stasis or push series powers...

[sun_facer]

Arh.. so... I C...

I assume I have to cheat in order to have a defense to reach 40?

I thought that the topic of discussion here was putting points in str or dex. My original thought was not much help in having high dex coz you are gonna get whacked anyway.

I can't cheat. I play the Xbox. No cheats here on the Xbox. Anyway, this is an easy game.

If I can only attain the high defense of 30 to 40 by cheating, then why bother with putting points in dex? Let's say I start a char with a dex of 18 at creation. That makes my dex at 22 close to lvl20. Let's say I have a +2 to dex item. That makes my defense ata about 28. With master speed, that would be a defense of 32.

Assuming that I dun want to cheat. Is that how I can achieve the state where I do not get hit? That is indeed at an expensive expense of the other attributes.

PS: I am not looking to achieve an uber jedi tanker. I have been through the game 6 times now with defenses 24 - 26. Just wondering about this super dodgey jedi mentioned.

[UserUnfriendly]

there is NO way you can ever achieve a status of never being hit...no matter how evilly powerful your defenses are, a natural roll of 20 will be an automatic hit...

even my uber pc, in the xbox (yes, i play xbox, and there are cheats for the xbox..) will get hit once in a while...now a very reachable 30 defenses will mean except for like rancour with 32 attack points, and sand people who have an amazing 26 attack points will hit you very seldom...forget the average sith trooper...

rancor and sand people and terenaks have mutant attack points, they're there in the game to humble you...

so even if you build for a high defense jedi, which is always a good idea, you want to invest in

improved energy resistance...

which for the duration of the power blocks 15 points of ALL damage, melee, energy, blasters, lightsabres...

keep your most powerful medipacs handy and invest in a good high con, and maybe toughness feats...

[sun_facer]

Yes! UserUnfriendly, you are very userfriendly. Finally, a sensible answer!

Dun mind me.... We are all here to enjoy this game. So, this message is merely thinking aloud.

Where did you get this information about monsters? I sure will like to know. Anyway, what you say is exactly my point. My point, I repeat is that no sith soldier ever killed anyone. Mandalorians may be a little prob. But these fellows were never much talk. Why, I even consider them to be rather funny sometimes.

I pointed out that the most difficult battles were
Spoiler
1) Malak 2) Mandalorians 3) Sith Grenadiers 4) Sand People
and with your help 5) Rancors 6) Terenaks

As a lightsider guardian in all my games, yes, those are the battles I have to actually pay more attention to. So... since these are gonna hit you anyway, whether or not you have a higher or lower defense, might as well go for higher str.

Those rooms full of sith troopers never did anything much... unless they start tossing grenades.
Spoiler
Vipers, Selkath, Rakatan, Kath Hounds, Droids, even those apprentice DJs... no one ever mentions before. A high defense may help in these battles. But comeon, how needs help in these battles?

Might as well put some points in Str, together with the +5 to str... and really make a difference to Malak's already messed up face.