Young girls and revealing clothes

[Magrus]

This was something which was on my mind earlier today, and something in the GTA: SA Rating Revisited thread made me really think about it.

[QUOTE=Chimaera182]But it's silly of those girls to completely overreact to someone possibly looking at what they've put on display anyway.[/QUOTE]

I remembered a situation in my 9th grade English class which truly struck home. There was a girl who sat directly to my right, with the wall on the other side of her. Now, we never talked, just sat next to each other. Well, there was a boy in front of us she liked, and she was an attractive girl. One day, I heard odd noises beside me, so I naturally was curious and turned to look. The girl was there, rubbing her thighs in a VERY short skirt, which from the angle I was at I could see up.

Now, the girl was trying to get the attention of the boy in front of me. Yet, she caught everyone's attention when I turned, saw that and snorted and shook my head. She had the nerve to call me a pervert and demand to know why I was looking at her.

[INDENT]I said "It's not exactly normal class room behavior for a half-naked teen girl to be groping herself. It's distracting."

She said "I wasn't doing it for you to look at! That's creepy."
[/INDENT]

I've noticed an increase in the number of young women who for some reason seem to think that when they go out in an outfit that displays the majority of their body, they will do so and only get the attention of those they will enjoy getting attention from. Not only that, they are offended and upset when those they don't enjoy getting attention from happen to look at them.

This, to me is sheer idiocy. Anyone walking around with just enough clothes on to avoid being charged with public indecency will attrack stares and looks. Getting upset with someone looking at you for how you chose to dress, not touching, or commenting, or staring but just a look is ridiculous.

Not only that, I've noticed that girls clothing in general has ended up being either more low-cut and revealing, or tighter. I'm not talking about just adult or teen clothes either. My 7 year old sister ends up with skin-tight jeans as well. That, to me, is disturbing.

I mean, I don't at all mind enjoying how pretty girls look. Yet, a noticable trend in a shift in how many people dress, stretching all the way down to those just starting school is worrysome for me. It seems as though young females have more often than not ignored the fact they can pretty regardless of what they wear and head for anything that is more revealing than what a friend has.

[VonDondu]

I think there's an honest misunderstanding here. You might think that a girl is "putting herself on display" when she wears skimpy clothing; but even in public, everyone expects to enjoy a certain amount of privacy. Just because girls appear in public, that does not give you the right to intrude upon their privacy. They expect you to show good manners. If you don't, then don't be upset if they think you're rude, crude, and socially unacceptable.

Permit me to draw an analogy. If you're having a conversation with someone in public, are you inviting everyone in the world to listen in on it? Do you think it's perfectly acceptable for other people to eavesdrop on your private conversations? I certainly don't. If it's not acceptable to listen to other people's words in public, then why is it acceptable to treat other people's bodies as a public spectacle?

[Magrus]

If I was poking, prodding, or gawking, then I'd apply your response. I'm not talking about any of that. Naturally, people end up aware of their surroundings. I've literally been yelled at by someone who just so happened to turn around and see me looking at her for a split second. Now, I was simply turning my head and looking around for a store, nothing special, I'm looking for a sign in front of a room in the mall right? Yet, by chance the time is off and we make eye contact.

Suddenly I'm being lectured and the friend I was with stares in shock at this girl in front of me. Being female herself, my friend defended me against this idiot, yet that happens. There was simply no reason for this girl to fly into a fit with me just turning my head and her by chance turning around at exactly the right moment. I had no interest in her, and she interrupted my friend and I finding a store, yet she assumed I was quite obviously staring at her immediately.

It made me wonder whether or not some people do dress that way simply to find attention, no matter the outcome. Granted, nowhere near everyone or most girls who dress in a provocative manner are that way but it still is there. Just like that girl in my english class that sat next to me. Someone making noise during a test in class is going to attract attention. Whether they are wearing a snow suit and completely covered or half-naked, large or small. It just doesn't matter. I turned my head to see the girl groping herself in an attempt to get someones attention in front of me. Yet when half the class turned to see who was making noise in the corner, she freaks because it wasn't the target she wanted and that person alone.

[GA_Havoc]

Sounds like you run into some pretty thickheaded women sometimes.
Where I come from people appear to be more level-headed: if you dress less you invite more staring and people don't stare at you untill you're fixated on someone for like 5 seconds, so no problems looking for a store here.

[Chanak]

I have to say that I haven't encountered that. I certainly notice other people; perhaps it's all in how this is done. Most people, irregardless of how they dress, find it uncomfortable to be stared at - unless they are an exhibitionist and enjoy the attention, which is rare but does occur from time to time. As a rule I make it a point not to stare at anyone, unless I'm giving them the evil eye or something in that vein.

[Chimaera182]

I had something similar happen to me once, although the girl wasn't quite as irritated by it.

I was on a debate meet, and we were in a break. My class was all hanging out in the hallway by ourselves, and we were just doing our own thing. I was sitting on the steps, zoned out--which I often did in high school--when one of the girls from our school just all of a sudden objected to me staring at her breasts. Of course, she was wearing some dress which lightly showed her cleavage; maybe, I don't remember, it was over 7 years ago. But I was just staring down the hall, completely unaware of what was going on, and it took the laughing of everyone at my obviously staring at her boobs to drag me out of it. I, of course, was staring mostly at the door past her, but whatever. Since then, it became something of a joke between me an her, and we'd do it kind of more often just for fun. But I think it is like Magrus said, these girls just want attention; it might not be true for all girls, but lots of people like attention, especially the kind of attention that makes you feel attractive.

As a result, girls who want attention drawn to their looks start dressing that way, and stuff's bound to happen. I almost miss the days where a girl who showed her ankle was taboo... almost. They didn't have air conditioning back then.

[Luis Antonio]

It hasnt happened to me, but to a close friend, while he was by my side. Actually, we all were looking to a girl who had striped of her jeans backpockets (making her gluteus "increase" a lot of inches) when she noticed. Oh, we were zooming it, and looking it, and commenting it, what's not really the right thing to do but we were only 16 so you figure. Also, she was already "sensational". Then she looked back, noticed us looking. She made a choice, and her choice was to yeall at my friend Marlyo like this:

"Hey, stop looking at my butt, you pervert, have you never seen one?"

Marlyo replied:

"I have, but none of them had a marker to increase its size"

Of course she slapped him. Anyway, I guess both were wrong: she did that to show her... pretty side and he was corresponding. But some people are just not "allowed" for the girls, what is understandable. He did wrong by provoking her instead of just saying an "I'm sorry, it wasnt my fault" or "Sorry, I couldnt resist". Anyway, that was the slap of the year, but only after a few weeks we could make fun of it.

[Cuchulain82]

I live in Harlem, and once watched a girl who I estimate to be 15 years old walk down the street (Harlem, for anyone who doesn't know, is a mostly-black neighborhood in New York City). She was attractive and was wearing a bouncy white mini-skirt that barely covered her derierre. I was on my way to work and was walking, cooincidentally, about 5 yards behind her.

The interesting thing was watching the reaction as she walked up the street. People hang out on the street in my neighborhood, and it is almost completely guys in the mornings. As I walked behind her, I watched every guy on the street gawk at her as she went by, all their heads turning. I could see her become more and more uncomfortable with every gawker, and by the time she got to the train station she was visibly shaken.

Now, imo, this whole uncomfortable situation could have been avoided if she hadn't worn the skirt. Sorry if this sounds silly or chauvanistic VonDu, but I can't see a more reasonable solution. Girls (and I mean girls, not women) should probably not advertise their bodies because they usually aren't equipped (emotionally, psychologically, etc.) for the reaction that can come. Or, perhaps, if women wear revealing clothing (and this was an extreme example of revealing), they should be ready for the response.

In my example, I think that the girl was probably making that transition between woman and girl, so I can understand her desire to get attention. In my experience, girls of this general age are caught between the desire for attention from men as women (physically, sexually, etc) and extreme discomfort when they actually get the attention- it is too much, overwhelming, threatening, and sometimes intimidating. I don't know how to remedy this- I guess it is, in part, a growth experience.

As for parents of children, girls who are pre-pubescent, and who dress these children in sexual clothes... that is a real pet-peeve of mine. I think it is unhealthy.

[Thomas77]

****deleted****

Accidentally double-posted when editing my original post.

[boo's daddy]

This is a sticky topic (no pun intended).

It's hard to lecture girls on not wearing skimpy outfits when they are constantly bombarded by relentless imagery about how women are only acceptable when showing off their bazookas in some spray-on thong and gyrating around like some robotic shag-doll.

Our society is massively, MASSIVELY hypocritical about this. You'll get some tabloid calling for the latest paedo to be strung up from the rafters, then you turn the page and there's a teenager with her waps out and a headline going "Phew, has Mitzy got massive knockers, or what?"; you can turn on the telly but there's Britney spears dressed as a schoolgirl going "hit me"; you can go out for a walk but every other advertising hoarding is plastered with women in a state of undress.

And yes, the overt sexualisation of childhood is the worst. However, I see it as an inevitable consequence of the rest of this utterly pervasive hypocrisy.

Still who's complaining?

[Thomas77]

My fiance often get's stared at by other men. I'm not talking about glancing at or even a simple up and down look. I'm talking about staring. Whether we're driving or walking through the mall or a store or wherever, and she hates it. Often times she'll say something at them that I would rather her not say, but it really does bother her. Often times this even happens when I'm with her, and honestly I even get a little upset. I don't care if a guy looks at her or even checks her out for a second, but the staring get's to me. It's as if he is waiting for her to notice him and respond positively back to him. I feel disrespected. She doesn't wear anything that I would constitute overly immodest, she is just an attractive girl.

Now, I know that men are easily stimulated by sight. That's the way we are built, created, constructed, or evolved (whichever you choose). So naturally, we like to look at attractive women. But I do agree that men should practice a bit more restraint and self control. I believe it is disrespectful for a man to stare at a woman. Again, I'm not talking about a simple glance or look. I mean staring for 5, 6, or 7 seconds at a time or more. Especially in a way that women know is more of a suggestive stare and rightfully makes them feel uncomfortable.

With that being said though, I do agree with Magrus. I think that while men need to keep their hormones in check, women who dress overly "provocative" and show alot of skin need to expect a bit more attention from the sight oriented gender.
To use Vondondu's analogy. I don't expect, nor do I like it, when people around me listen in on my private conversations. But if I talk overly loud, that get's peoples attention. An argument for instance. A soft low key conversation doesn't attract other peoples attention unless they are simply being nosy. But an argument would get peoples attention. Therefore it would be prudent of me to wait until we are in a more private place before discussing whatever it is we are in disagreement about.
So while I believe that it wouldn't be right for other people to listen in on my private conversation, it also wouldn't be very wise for me to have an overly private/personal conversation in the middle of a group of people either. It's called prudence and discretion.
I think the same idea or principle can be used by those who dress in an overly provocatively manner. While men should be respectful of women and not stare, women should understand that the less clothes they have on, the more attention (wanted or unwanted) from men they're going to attract.

But, that's just IMO.

As for parents of children, girls who are pre-pubescent, and who dress these children in sexual clothes... that is a real pet-peeve of mine. I think it is unhealthy.

I couldn't agree with you more Cuchulain....

[dragon wench]

I would like to point out a few things here.

Personally, I loathe being stared at by men. It is intrusive and rude. However, I do not generally dress in a provocative manner, yet that doesn't really seem to matter, it still happens. For many women, the problem is not the way they dress, but the fact that so many men lack basic respect! The tone I am hearing here from some posters seems to suggest it is the woman's fault she is being stared at.... In other words "blame the victim, because men just can't control their basic biological urges."
Further, believe it or not guys, sometimes women dress in what might be considered a 'provocative' fashion because they are doing it for themselves, and not for the benefit of a male audience.

I do recognise, that sometimes women/girls do attire themselves in a way that is bound to attract attention, and it sounds like the woman Magrus described was indeed soliciting it. But, I wanted to throw out a few other perspectives.

Finally, I consider staring rude, no matter who is doing it, male or female. And yes, women leer as well. When looking at somebody you find interesting, attractive or whatever, IMO, it really boils down to how it is done. If it is discreet and has a level of respect to it, that is generally okay. If it is out and out gawking, the up and down elevator stare, then it is unacceptable.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]imo, this whole uncomfortable situation could have been avoided if she hadn't worn the skirt. Sorry if this sounds silly or chauvanistic VonDu, but I can't see a more reasonable solution...[/QUOTE]
I completely agree. I never said that girls should wear clothes that attract as much attention as possible.


[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]Girls (and I mean girls, not women) should probably not advertise their bodies because they usually aren't equipped (emotionally, psychologically, etc.) for the reaction that can come. Or, perhaps, if women wear revealing clothing (and this was an extreme example of revealing), they should be ready for the response.

...In my experience, girls of this general age are caught between the desire for attention from men as women (physically, sexually, etc) and extreme discomfort when they actually get the attention- it is too much, overwhelming, threatening, and sometimes intimidating...[/QUOTE]
The thing is, it's wrong to believe that every girl who wears skimpy clothing is doing it to attract attention. My guess is that only a small percentage of of girls and women actually have that intention. The main reason why girls choose their clothing is because they think that's what they're "supposed" to wear (even when it's not the kind of clothing their parents tell them to wear) and because they think it makes them look good. When they step out in public, they expect to retain their privacy. Being "admired" even by well-meaning men is uncomfortable, not least because it makes women feel self-conscious. Most women feel that men don't have the right to make them feel that way.

If a girl does intend to attract attention, that is a separate motivation, and as Magrus's story suggested, women only want attention from specific targets (i.e., the people they themselves are interested in), not from the entire world.

"Gentlemen" undertand these things and either stare discreetly or practice self-restraint instead of rationalizing their behavior and gawking like it's their God-given right. Women are always told to accept the consequences for their actions, and the same applies to men. If you make an ass of yourself in public, it will affect other people's opinion of you.

I've been trying to find a humorous article from The Onion about a scientific study that showed that men from lower socioeconomic classes are better at expressing their sexual attraction than men who are better educated and better off. I've never read a more balanced review of the subject.

The next time you see someone eating an ice cream cone in public, be sure to walk right up to them and ask them what flavor it is and how much they paid for it since they are "advertising" it by eating it in public and that makes it your business. You have a right to do that, and if they don't like it, they shouldn't eat in public.

[VonDondu]

[QUOTE=dragon wench]Personally, I loathe being stared at by men. It is intrusive and rude. However, I do not generally dress in a provocative manner, yet that doesn't really seem to matter, it still happens. For many women, the problem is not the way they dress, but the fact that so many men lack basic respect![/QUOTE]
Have you ever seen the movie Body Heat with William Hurt and Kathleen Turner? There's a great scene in it when the male lead character (Hurt) comes on to the female lead character (Turner):

MATTY: Most men are little boys.

RACINE: Maybe you should drink at home.

MATTY: Too quiet.

RACINE: Maybe you shouldn't dress like that.

MATTY: This is a blouse and a skirt. I don't know what you're talking about.

RACINE: You shouldn't wear that body.

(Matty leans back in her seat and glances down at herself.)

MATTY: I don't like my body much. It's never been right.

Throughout the movie, Matty makes it clear that she doesn't allow most men to talk to her like that.

In just those few lines of dialogue, all sorts of issues come up--whether a woman is inviting flirtation just by going to a bar, whether a man has the right to approach her, whether his comments are appropriate, whether a woman likes to be looked at even when she's not dressed up, and whether even a good looking woman has body issues that make her feel self-conscious (making even compliments about her body unwelcome).

The main that strikes me is, even if a woman isn't wearing skimpy clothing, a man might feel that any woman who steps out of the house is "putting herself on display" if he finds her attractive. Yeah, and he's putting his own behavior on display, and if a woman calls him a chump, he deserves it.

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=VonDondu]Have you ever seen the movie Body Heat with William Hurt and Kathleen Turner? There's a great scene in it when the male lead character (Hurt) comes on to the female lead character (Turner):

MATTY: Most men are little boys.

RACINE: Maybe you should drink at home.

MATTY: Too quiet.

RACINE: Maybe you shouldn't dress like that.

MATTY: This is a blouse and a skirt. I don't know what you're talking about.

RACINE: You shouldn't wear that body.

(Matty leans back in her seat and glances down at herself.)

MATTY: I don't like my body much. It's never been right.

Throughout the movie, Matty makes it clear that she doesn't allow most men to talk to her like that.

In just those few lines of dialogue, all sorts of issues come up--whether a woman is inviting flirtation just by going to a bar, whether a man has the right to approach her, whether his comments are appropriate, whether a woman likes to be looked at even when she's not dressed up, and whether even a good looking woman has body issues that make her feel self-conscious (making even compliments about her body unwelcome).

The main that strikes me is, even if a woman isn't wearing skimpy clothing, a man might feel that any woman who steps out of the house is "putting herself on display" if he finds her attractive. Yeah, and he's putting his own behavior on display, and if a woman calls him a chump, he deserves it.[/QUOTE]


No, I haven't seen the movie actually. But yes, those lines, in just a short space do indeed highlight a very complex range of issues.

I can't help but wonder sometimes if what we are experiencing here is a clash of eras. In some ways we have (thankfully) advanced beyond the time where women, unless they were prostitutes, required a male escort to be even permitted in a bar. Yet those long-held notions of 'appropriate female behaviour' still command considerable sway, to the point that at a certain level of perception any woman who enters a bar alone must surely be selling her body and therefore be soliciting attention.

I find it interesting that you mention the issue of whether a woman enjoys attention when she isn't dressed up. In one way, like Matty's remark about feeling comfortable with her body, it underscores the insecurity many women feel. And that links to the whole issue of media and body image.
Also, the question arises, "Is the reverse true, do women who dress up enjoy the attention?"

From my own perspective, if I'm feeling extremely uninterested in any sort of contact with others, I will purposefully dress down (not that I frequently dress up, but that is another subject completely), and I will wear darker clothing.
However, the reverse does not apply in my case. If I'm better dressed, wearing a bit of makeup, brighter colours, etc. I still do not appreciate gawking.

It seems to me that old ideas about women have not reconciled with more modern society. In a nutshell, there is still a strong sense out there that a woman dressed in a way that attracts attention is doing so because she is selling herself and therefore actively soliciting it.

That being said though, I concede that sometimes people (women and men) present themselves in such a startling and eye catching manner, that it can be difficult to avoid at least glancing at them. Again, however, it's how the looking is done.


*sigh* I think I might be rambling here, not quite enough caffeine yet

[Magrus]

All in all, as I tried pointing out, an attractive woman does not need to dress provocatively to be noticed as an attractive woman. Which was what got to me. I can look at a pretty woman and move about my business. I can look at one that is half-naked and strutting around town and move about my business. I simply don't care. I enjoy the company of woman, yet wandering by one in the mall or on the street, a pretty girl isn't anything to lose my head over. I have no reason to gawk and stare, because chances are, when I walk another block or so, there will be someone else. What use is it to interrupt my day because of someone's looks?

The thing that does bother me, is when people are not ready to accept the consequences of their actions. Like Cuch's example, have you ever noticed a girl wearing a skirt like that, then bending over, and getting extremely insulted when someone notices her rear? That's going to happen when you pick clothing that doesn't cover it, why end up insulted over it?

I tend to be very considerate at most times, simply because of the discussions I've had with my friends about my views on flirting and teasing and such. My views are far different on such things, so it lands me in trouble. I've asked them whether I happen to be doing anything wrong, and they've said not that they have noticed, I've simply wrotten luck with timing. That and the fact that once a situation breaks out, I let go of my control and do my best to have fun with the verbal conflict.

As I said with my one example though, I was with a female friend who truly got upset by the reaction of this girl. The both of us were looking around for something and she knew I wasn't gawking at this woman and was offended. Sure I can be a flirt and a tease, I tend to limit that to people I consider as friends or I'm interested in. Random stranger's, not at all. I have no shame, and if I have noticed a girl, and have an inclination to date her, I'll do what I feel like to get her attention. Everyone else, I summarily tend to ignore when I'm out in public as most people irritate me when I'm out and about.

As for the "instinct" thing, quite frankly, there is an instinct I've noticed with men. Once a female ends up of a child-bearing age, males take notice. How they do so is up to them, and it should be done in a respectful way yes. However, plainly put, women will look at men, and vice versa as a result of the species instinct to search out partners and breed. Which leads me back to the problem, why all the half-naked women? It's unnecessary.

Heat I can understand not wanting to dress completly covered. I don't know if it's just my area, but for any of those who live in a temperate climate, I'm not talking about just summer. I used to see girls come into school shivering and whining about the cold in mini-skirts and a half shirt when there's snow on the ground. It's insane to me. I love the cold and I've been known to play in the snow with shorts and a t-shirt on, but that's because I'm comfortable doing so. If you're freezing, cover up.

[Dottie]

I really don't like the idea that peoples integrity should be dependant on their clothing. I also think it is quite rude to assume that you know why people dress the way they do, unless they tell you.

That said I don't think you can demand to walk unseen in public areas either, regardless of clothes.

Personally I have never experienced these problems though. Whether others look at me or I look at them I've never noticed any kind of irritation, not even on the level of an angry stare back or so.

[Fiona]

I notice that some of the people on this thread implicitly use biological difference to account for the problem. It still seems to me that this blames the victim. The skimpiness or otherwise of the clothing hardly matters. Mistakes can happen and actions can be misunderstood. But in general women dress like other women, as Von Dondu said. At times skirts are long and necks are high but some men still stare. In the days when an ankle was the only bit of visible flesh, any woman showing hers was seen to be provocative. Where are you going to draw the line ? Are we all supposed to be in Burquas ? As to living with the consequences of your actions, staring is not a consequence of the woman's action; it the man's action alone.

[Magrus]

True, yet there is a difference between someone making a huge deal out of a simple glance, or someone deliberately taking an action in which to garner attention and someone simply dressing in skimpy clothing. That was my point with this.

Not to mention the other, of a trend of even little girl clothes being provocative as well. Truthfully, I'm all for tight and revealing clothing on pretty girls. Yet, when it becomes more of thought process of the general public that they "need" to dress that way to fit in, I have a problem with it. There's a difference in my mind.

[dragon wench]

[QUOTE=Fiona] In the days when an ankle was the only bit of visible flesh, any woman showing hers was seen to be provocative. Where are you going to draw the line ? Are we all supposed to be in Burquas ? [/QUOTE]

Yes, exactly! To me, what this fundamentally boils down to is that far too many men hold the notion that every woman out there is on display for their particular viewing pleasure. And of course, if women are dressed in a more revealing manner, well so much the better. Because, of course, "nice girls don't dress that way, so it's perfectly okay not to accord them any kind of respect."

It's sad. Here we are in 2005, and yet Victorian 'mores' are ever present