A more serious SYM thread (no spam)

[ik911]

Actually, I don't like to post this thread in fear of disturbing the cosy blur that currently seems to be powering the airconditioning and heating system of SYM.

But I post it anyways, because of a greater fear: SYM might perish.

Death is usually not the best discussion-subject in a party. It "kills" the mood, to keep using analogies. Yet, I feel someone has to bring it up. I will try to keep my speech as structural as possible to explore the problem and different solutionscenarios.

As I said, I fear SYM might perish somewhere in the future, and I'm not talking about in 10 years.

This is because I've heard quite a few people complain about SYM's current state and because I see many members mysteriously disappearing, either completely or mostly, which in fact is often the same.

These two could be connected. Many well-known members leave and the rest complains because they miss those characters.

So, should we perhaps forbid leaving? No, ofcourse not, where did you get that silly idea?!

Sometimes, once every so many months and around halloween, some members return to the meadow, utter a few hello's and then they're off again.

But is it realistic to expect those missing personalities to either permanently return or be replaced by a comparable personality? The answer must be no. Most of the 'splitters' have a good reason (lack of time, work, study, watering the plants, lack of devotion ) to leave and the probability or even possibility of a left well-known and respected member's personality to be compensated by another member is somewhere near zero.

This brings us to the new members who fail to compensate the loss of the respected members. They litter SYM with unadapted puppytalk and uneducated nonsense. Ah, yes, who doesn't like to bash the newbie?

But is it realistic to blame the decline of SYM on the newbies? That's certainly a difficult question. It is so tempting to say they've done it and yet, it isn't true. That would be blaming the water for the flood. I'm amazed by my own analogy. Much like the water that damages your furniture and drowns your cow, the newer members litter SYM with unadapted puppytalk. But the flood isn't caused by them. They're more like the result; the water, as I see it. The conditions were already present when they decided to join on SYM. The dam was already busted, you could say. People don't come and post in a forum that's not right for them, just like water stays behind the dam when the dam's too strong.

Before I continue, I want to say that I don't intend to insult or rant on the the newer members, even though it really looks a lot like it. I certainly don't want any newbie to leave over the slight irritation of more experienced members. It is your complete right to be here with us and our honour. You did not cause the irritation.
We take everyone seriously here, no matter what your join date or postcount says.

On to searching the cause. I think we've excluded the leavers and the joiners as they are incontrolable factors. We can't and shouldn't force the leavers to stay, or those who want to join, to stay away.

Apparently, the cause of the complaints must be sought in the current occupation of SYM.

SYM is shaped by people and by standards.

Are the people creating negative conditions for SYM? I don't think so. Even though the people should in theory create the standards, I don't think there's people to be blamed... Yet.

That's why I said SYM is shaped by people and standards. The expectations and rituals and everything that seemed to form the foundation of the old SYM are either rotting or evolving, whichever has your fancy.

I think that about concludes what I think is causing the decrease of quality of SYM at the moment.

"We must learn to live with the evolution of SYM as a natural occurence over time and we can't expect SYM to always be the same BLABLABLA" I can't live with that and I want SYM to return to glory.

Wait. Did I just say that SYM was once glorious and is now a senile slave of nothing? Well, not quite. It's not that bad. But what if it soon is...

Is it realistic to want it to return to former glory? Definitely not. That would require the leavers to return to educate the joiners and that's not going to happen and would be unnatural too.

How about forming an etiquette to raise the standard? That would be an artificial attempt to return to the standards of the SYM as we have it in our minds. I think it's too unnatural to be realistic. It also raises a lot more questions like: who's going to enforce the etiquette; who's going to MAKE the etiquette; is it going to have the desired effect. Artificial and unnatural are the key words. And I don't think that's going to work. Also, the forum will be almost entirely unapproachable by new people. But maybe that's okay?

What about ignoring those who are irritated? Not giving a damn about those oldies who wish their SYM stayed unspammed and educated and much the same. That would give way to an entirely new SYM. Force the establishment out. Oh, anarchists are so damn attractive. But no. SYM has certain ingredients that I think should be maintained.

Okay, okay, so you're saying it's impossible to go back and yet you want SYM to stay the same?!
Erm. I guess. ?
So what's the point in making a thread that has no clear conclusion?
Eh, to start a discussion.
But this discussion is way too hard and there'll never be a satisfying conclusion!
That's true. All I can do is request people to post their views and be honest about their views and not feel insulted by others.

[Luis Antonio]

Oooh the bee hive has been poked. Oooh, hide.

I think we're all to be blamed. We let ourselves do what we dont want other people to do. I wont quote, but I know I'm responsible for the fall of SYM too. Anyway, I feel like I've opened another chapter, even though spamish, on SYM life. The "place" I've built is on the ground, shattered, lifeless. Also, I feel the serious discussions falling down around the same things, the same constants, the same absolute truths. But I'm only revealing this cause I want the hive to be shaken. And to be victim of a few stings.

Ooooh, the hive has been poked.

[ch85us2001]

Ik heres my view,
SYM is what it is now. It never will be what it was then and it never will be what it is now again.

I believe you know my views on this, because I believe you were a participant in that conversation in the HC so long ago, that led us to start the spam factory.

Im not going to publicly flame you (even though I veiw your post as a flame against newer members), but I will be PMing you.

Chu.

[Luis Antonio]

Originally Posted by ch85us2001

I believe you know my views on this, because I believe you were a participant in that conversation in the HC so long ago, that led us to start the spam factory.

I believe the purpose of the thread has nothing to do with what he said. I think he's talking about SYM as a whole, spam included, not spam alone. So, the Spam Factory is into the discussion, but she's not the jewel in the crown. Now, with that said, I guess one of the problems with the Spam threads is that people that are frequently posting on them sometimes forget that you are not supposed to simply spam serious threads. I mean simply spam. Not classy spam, when you spam and answer, as Bloodstalker has done in many ocasions. That said, I'm out, cause it will stir the hive.

[Fiona]

You don't blame the new members, the ex-members or the existing experienced members for the decline of SYM. You don't think a set of standards or etiquette can or should be imposed. What else is there?

To be honest I am not a historian so I don't really know what you are talking about. Hill and Phreddie will be better able to comment. Without wishing to go for any imposition of standards, it would help me if you would list just what ingredients of SYM you feel should be maintained and are being eroded. That wouldn't be a set of rules but it might give us newbies some clues as to what you want or what you miss. At present there are few of the older members posting much, so I don't have a role model *cries*

[TonyMontana1638]

I haven't the slightest idea about what the good ol' days were like, but what exactly is so horrible about the state it's in right now? Has the Spam become too willy-nilly and pointless, or is it because the new members haven't the charisma that the Golden-Oldies do? Is it a combination of both?

I get what you mean that you wish SYM could go back to how it was (even without knowing what that actually entails), but is there anything that can really be done short of, as you put it, adopting a sense of etiquette? I fail to see the problem with it right now, but it is hard to judge when I may very well be part of the disease... And I mean that without any offense taken at all from your arrogant comments (truly).

Has it really become a Platonic Symposium turned after-hours bar as I believe you've implied? Or is this just being blown out of proportion?

I believe the latter, but hey what do I know...

[ch85us2001]

Originally Posted by Luis Antonio

I believe the purpose of the thread has nothing to do with what he said. I think he's talking about SYM as a whole, spam included, not spam alone. So, the Spam Factory is into the discussion, but she's not the jewel in the crown. Now, with that said, I guess one of the problems with the Spam threads is that people that are frequently posting on them sometimes forget that you are not supposed to simply spam serious threads. I mean simply spam. Not classy spam, when you spam and answer, as Bloodstalker has done in many ocasions. That said, I'm out, cause it will stir the hive.

Yes, I note that, its just that weve had this discussion before, thats all Im stating.
IMO if someone wants to change the face of SYM, they should set a good example, not set up some ettiquitte. Just IMO.

And what is so wrong with SYM now?

[TonyMontana1638]

I couldn't agree more: it's hard to Speak Your Mind while worrying that you may be breaking Ik's standards...

[Phreddie]

To force ourselves, o make a cognizant effort to make SYM more ideal for us? Create a Utopia? Perfect on the outside, but on the inside, people in chains screaming for conflict, wanting something to break the perfection... nae, I agree with Ik, SYM needs to change, I saw SYM of old, as an outsider, I see SYM of now as a member, neither should be replicated, neither could be replicated. Subtle changes need to be made, friendly conversations made, but morality should take a place, spam should remain, in one or two threads, post count, forgotten, all new possible spam threads, forgone, say with Chu's news articles of wierd things from his hometown, should be put to the SF, instead of starting a new a thread. That would be nice...

However, I would not like it if there is a thread for medical issues, a thread for issues in personal lives, a thread for polotics, a thread for general discussion of the abstract that doe snot caegorize as spam. This falls more into the Utopia of what I referred to above, however it would nto be a UTopia for not all would be happy, it would be like a perfect socialistic community, although none such could exist.

I am on the edge, I make one wrong move, I face Suspensiona dn possible Banning, if a slipp occurs, and i pray, and watch so that one doesnot, I wish to have left SYM not in ruins, but as a rebuilt... haven.

Sym should be a place of escapism, wher on can find, not happiness, but a range of emotions, I believ that in life, to truly live one must be able to face, deal with, and overcome everything, extreme pain, discomfort, depression, joy, hunger, thrist, and contentment. I struggle to hold myself to ym beliefs, but I do believe that SYM should not be a lighthearted place on the whole, there should be pain seriosness, pleasure, and contentment.

Ik, I agree, we (the newcomers) were begotten of the ignoranc eof the old ways, and thus spread it like a plague, a subtle poision spreading through out, I will help eradicate this plague.

[Phreddie]

Originally Posted by ch85us2001

Yes, I note that, its just that weve had this discussion before, thats all Im stating.
IMO if someone wants to change the face of SYM, they should set a good example, not set up some ettiquitte. Just IMO.

And what is so wrong with SYM now?

The purpose of this discussion, as I interpret it, is to divine the nature of this example, find what exactly is wrong, what is causing the wrong, and how to mend the wounds.

[ch85us2001]

Originally Posted by Phreddie

The purpose of this discussion, as I interpret it, is to divine the nature of this example, find what exactly is wrong, what is causing the wrong, and how to mend the wounds.

I dont think we can mend the wounds, because I dont believe there are any wounds.

If it comes down to something like an ettiquitte (beyond the normal "be friendly" and forum rules), I will most likely be leaving SYM.

[Dottie]

I must, like others, ask what it is that you think is lost? Imo there are not many things that have changed on SYM over the last years.

Sure, I miss some old members too, but imo there have always been an influx of new members who I will miss just as much when they disappear.

[Luis Antonio]

Originally Posted by TonyMontana1638

I couldn't agree more: it's hard to Speak Your Mind while worrying that you may be breaking Ik's standards...

Its not a matter about Ik standards, Tony, please, he's talking about something I'm sure many people want to know about. He wants opinions, so why not telling yours instead of pointing him the finger and saying "you want me to be pre formatted?"

Originally Posted by Chu

IMO if someone wants to change the face of SYM, they should set a good example, not set up some ettiquitte. Just IMO.

Setting a good example is setting some ettiquete, Ik is merely talking about making it more official, or maybe he's confused about the etiquette as well, and he's trying to see opinions.

Originally Posted by Phreddie

The purpose of this discussion, as I interpret it, is to divine the nature of this example, find what exactly is wrong, what is causing the wrong, and how to mend the wounds.QUOTE OF THE DAY

Agreed.

[ch85us2001]

Originally Posted by Dottie

Sure, I miss some old members too, but imo there have always been an influx of new members who I will miss just as much when they disappear.

Some of my sentiments exactly.

Ik, you make it sound like new members are worse than old members because they werent part of a SYM that In Your Opinion was better.

[Luis Antonio]

Originally Posted by Dottie

Sure, I miss some old members too, but imo there have always been an influx of new members who I will miss just as much when they disappear.

Originally Posted by Chus

Some of my sentiments exactly.

Agreed, but I dont think this is the core of the open questions up there. This is just a part of it, and if I'm not wrong he's told that.

Originally Posted by ik3,140234710

Sometimes, once every so many months and around halloween, some members return to the meadow, utter a few hello's and then they're off again.

But is it realistic to expect those missing personalities to either permanently return or be replaced by a comparable personality?

So, in fact, he's not talking about oldies returning, or our complains about the lack of someone as funny as they were. Maybe it is a deeper question.