Hidden Dragon (melee build):

[Scottg]

Purpose:

First and foremost this build is designed to be usable in the OC and MOTB. It however is ALSO a *power build* (..and its pretty much tweaked to its maximum potential). With respect to its power build feature, it offers just about as high a final attack number as you can get with "spell buffs", and *without* buffing. For the OC and MOTB, the character level progression is designed to work with the modules - i.e. the build is playable at any level.

For levels 1-18 this character acts like a standard fighter with full armor, shield, and one-handed weapon, but with some additional "perks" as levels increase. These "perks" include the ability to *actually* knockdown opponents, increasing damage potential regardless of which weapon is used, increasing hit-points as character level increases (and a marginal gain in fortitude saves), increasing AC thats *stackable*, the occasional use of a fire cone spell, and several *useful* immunities at character level 15. Additionally will saves are considerably higher with this character than a similar "fighter only" build. Finally, you can look forward to having a fairly *DIFFERENT* character to play at higher levels.

For level 19-30 this character acts differently than a standard fighter. At this point in the build you "ditch" the armor and the shield and go STEALTH. Initially the character's Hide and Move Silently skills will be a little weak, but for most opponents in MOTB its useful (..provided you leave your companions at a distance or simply use the command to stay at their location). Of course within just a few levels the character's Stealth ability will be much higher and eventual comparable, (excepting Dexterity modifier bonuses), to a pure Rogue of the same level. The specific attack sequence for this build depends on the opponent(s) and the character's level, but for the most part is exactly the same as a rogue-like character with sneak attacks. Additionally, at this point the choice of weapon changes for a number of reasons (to a Scythe).

..until character level 24-26 the sequence is:

Hide, Knockdown, Attack.. "rinse an repeat" as is most effective. If the opponent can't be knocked down (due to an immunity or a massive size difference) then cut short your attacks and hide again, always trying to attack from the "rear".

..at character level 24-26(+) it changes yet again depending on if the opponent is a magic caster or a melee'er:

Magic Caster - (its likely its the same sequence as above). Hide, Knockdown, Attack.. though usually attack until you have killed that opponent (unless there are multiple tough opponents).

Melee'er - Hide, Disarm/Improved Disarm, (disarm again if a two-weapon opponent or a ranged attacker that switches to a melee weapon), Knockdown, pickup weapons (if they aren't placed in your inventory), Hide, Knockdown, Attack.. "rinse and repeat" the Hide and Knockdown sequence until opponent is dead. Note that the "disarm" component is of course only applicable if the opponent is wielding a weapon. Melee'er in this instance includes *any* weapon wielding opponent including Rogues, Magic Casters that might use a weapon they have, and even Ranged Attack weapons.

Final Comments:

Do NOT underestimate the power of high Stealth! (..its considerably better than most AC builds, because of course AC builds are still subject to getting hosed by Magic Casters.) In combination with Knockdown and Disarm its *nearly* unbeatable (when used properly). In testing with the "Battle of the Builds" module this character and attack method (operated by a real human being) would rarely fail to overcome *any* opponents in the build. There were of course some finesse points with some opponents:

Extremely high AC opponents (like Black Dragon, Lord of the Mountain, and Immortal Treent), would take some time for certain buffs to wear-off and the character would benefit from casting True Strike spells (typically from scrolls).

(Note that as far as spell buffing is concerned: your ONLY spell is True Strike. Moreover you won't need it against most opponents, so the tedium of "buffing is largely absent as is worrying about a spell breach. Additionally, this spell will *likely* be casted from a scroll you have scribed (while wearing a charisma modifier of +3 or better) - so spend some time with some blank scrolls and scribe at *least* 30 True Strikes for your inventory. Remember its only a 1st level scroll and so the price for scribing is overall quite low. Finally, unlike most spells True Strike's duration does not increase with level (..so there is no real "penalty" to having only one Sorcerer level).)

Against *most* casters this build was actually EASY. The exception was a Necromaster, and then only when casting VampiricFeast AND failing the save.

..with that out of the way, lets see the build -

[Tricky]

Interesting. That's one of the better ways to obtain and take advantage of an attack of opportunity.

On disarm:

"The wielder of a two-handed weapon on a disarm attempt gets a +4 bonus on this roll, and the wielder of a light weapon takes a -4 penalty. (An unarmed strike is considered a light weapon, so you always take a penalty when trying to disarm an opponent by using an unarmed strike.) If the combatants are of different sizes, the larger combatant gets a bonus on the attack roll of +4 per difference in size category. If the targeted item isn’t a melee weapon, the defender takes a -4 penalty on the roll."

Something to take into account. I recently wanted to know how the disarm rolls worked, so I looked it up. Rather than trying to remember that I thought I'd quote the D20srd paragraph itself.

I think I'm going to try this one out actually. I already made up my mind about including RDD levels in my next build anyway.

[Scottg]

Race: Earth Gensai

Starting Attributes:

Strength = 20
Dexterity = 14
Constitution = 16
Intelligence = 12
Wisdom = 6
Charisma = 6


1st Level: Fighter. Wild Child Background. Lore 4, Hide 2, (4 point carryover). Feats: Weapon Focus Scythe, Able Learner.

2nd Level: Fighter. Lore 1, Listen 2, Move Silently 2, (2 point carryover). Feat: Knockdown.

3rd Level: Fighter. Hide 1, Lore 1, Listen 1, Move Silently 1, (1 point carryover). Feat: Improved Initiative.

4th Level: Fighter. Attribute: Strength 1. Lore 1, (3 point carryover). Feat: Dodge.

5th Level: Sorcerer. Hide 1, Lore 1, Move Silently 1 (3 point carryover). Spells: True Strike, Identify, Acid Splash, Daze, Light, Resistance. Familiar: Cat.

6th Level: Red Dragon Disciple (aka RDD). Diplomacy 6. Feat: Scribe Scroll. Feat (RDD): Natural Armor Increase +1.

7th Level: RDD. Diplomacy 3. Feat (RDD): Draconic Ability Score: Strength +2.

8th Level: RDD. Attribute: Strength 1. Diplomacy 2, Hide 1. Feat (RDD): Draconic Breath Weapon 2d10.

9th Level: RDD. Diplomacy 1, Hide 1, Move Silently 1. Feat: Mobility. Feats (RDD): Natural Armor Increase +1, Draconic Ability Score: Strength +2.

10th Level: RDD. Diplomacy 1, Move Silently 1, Tumble 1. Feat (RDD): Blind Fight.

11th Level: RDD. Diplomacy 1, Hide 1, Move Silently 1.

12th Level: RDD. Attribute: Strength 1. Diplomacy 1, Tumble 2. Feat: Spring Attack. Feats (RDD): Natural Armor Increase +1 AC, Draconic Ability: Constitution +2, Draconic Breath Weapon 4d10.

13th Level: RDD. Hide 1, Move Silently 1, Tumble 2. Feat (RDD): Draconic Ability: Intelligence +2.

14th Level: RDD. Listen 4.

15th Level: RDD. Hide 1, Move Silently 1, Listen 2. Feat: Improved Knockdown. Feats (RDD): Natural Armor Increase +2 AC, Draconic Ability: Strength +4, Charisma +2, Draconic Breath Weapon 6d10, and HALF DRAGON providing: Darkvision, Immunity to Sleep, Immunity to Fire, Immunity to Paralysis.

16th Level: Fighter. Attribute: Strength 1. Listen 1, (3 point carryover).

17th Level: Fighter. Hide 1, Move Silently 1, (5 point carryover). Feat: Power Critical Scythe.

18th Level: Shadow Dancer. Hide 10, Move Silently 3. Feat: Dash. Feat (SD): Hide in Plain Sight (aka HiPS).

19th Level: Fighter. Move Silently 4.

20th Level: Fighter. Attribute: Strength 1. Move Silently 3, Listen 1. Feat: Greater Weapon Focus Scythe.

21st Level: Fighter. Listen 4. Feat (epic character): Great Strength +1.

22nd Level: Fighter. Listen 4. Feat: Epic Weapon Focus Scythe.

23rd Level: Fighter. Hide 1, Listen 3. Feat (epic character): Great Strength +2.

24th Level: Fighter. Attribute: Strength 1. Hide 4. Feat: Disarm.

25th Level: Fighter. Move Silently 4. Feat (epic Character): Great Strength +3.

26th Level: Fighter. Hide 3, Move Silently 1. Feat: Improved Disarm.

27th Level: Fighter. Hide 2, Move Silently 2. Feat (epic Character): Great Strength +4.

28th Level: Fighter. Attribute: Strength 1. Hide 1, Move Silently 3. Feat: Epic Prowess.

29th Level: Fighter. Hide 1, Move Silently 2, Listen 1. Feat (epic Character): Great Strength +5.

30th Level: Fighter. Hide 1, Move Silently 1, Listen 2. Feat: Improved Critical Scythe.

Final Attributes:

Strength = 40
Dexterity = 14
Constitution = 18
Intelligence = 14
Wisdom = 6
Charisma = 8

Final Notes:

Feats..

With the exception of Feats at level 17, 18, and 30 - all are critical to the build and are placed where they should be/(at the correct level). In particular Dodge and Mobility are selected at a time appropriate (considering skill levels) to select the single class level of Shadowdancer. Moreover, Spring Attack is ALSO available in time to start using stealth maneuvers once that level of Shadowdancer is available.

Skills..

Final skills in Hide and Move Silently are maxed (in no small part due to the Feat Able Learner) at 33 each.

Listen was chosen instead of Spot for several reasons:
1. Hiding Spell casters with somatic spells.
2. Hiding opponents are less likely to have as high a Move Silently skill level as Hide.
3. Its usually easier to overcome a hearing check while an opponent is moving.
The only real negative to choosing Listen instead of Spot is against Feints.. BUT you should be able to disarm most "feint-type" opponents.

Tumble has obviously been left to "rot" at 5 points.. This is because the points were needed else where AND Spring Attack overcomes the "attacks of opportunity" problem that a high tumble skill might.

I've calculated that virtually the same build as a Fighter with one level of Shadowdancer at level 30 resulted in a net attack number just 2 points less than this build. There are also a few net less feats to choose, but unessential feats to the character's effectiveness. In return you net an additional +3 to damage via strength, but its likely that your additional feats would have been "specialization" feats which would have netted +6 (..so your are "down" about +3 in damage per attack overall). However that higher Strength results in a higher percentage of successful Knockdowns against tougher opponents.

The real bonus of this class structure is:

1. Diplomacy is "Unlocked" and the addition of +2 Intelligence nets in a slightly higher skill point total that allows you to upgrade your diplomacy at the right time to 15.

..and,

2. Immunity to Paralysis and Fire (..particularly the paralysis against casters).

Enjoy!

[Scottg]

Originally Posted by Tricky

Interesting. That's one of the better ways to obtain and take advantage of an attack of opportunity.

On disarm:


Something to take into account. I recently wanted to know how the disarm rolls worked, so I looked it up. Rather than trying to remember that I thought I'd quote the D20srd paragraph itself.

I think I'm going to try this one out actually. I already made up my mind about including RDD levels in my next build anyway.

Yup, thats just one of the reasons for specifying a Scythe!

(note: that as a full build, I virtually never failed a disarm against an opponent in "Battle of the Builds". Moreover, unlike Knockdown, Disarm has NO TIME OUT.. you can use it repeatedly without waiting.)

Another is that the criticals are much higher in damage.. and *if* your attack number is substantially higher than your opponents AC then you are much more likely to critical.

[Scottg]

This:

"..a Fighter with one level of Shadowdancer at level 30 resulted in a net attack number just 2 points less than this build."

Should be 2 points *MORE* than the Hidden Dragon Build.

Of course a Fighter doesn't have "infinite" access to the spell True Strike.

[Tricky]

Originally Posted by Scottg

Yup, thats just one of the reasons for specifying a Scythe!

In addition, you could play as an half-orc and have a mage cast enlarge on you. However, that *might* cause 2-handed weapons to be counted as 1-handed weapons (despite not being able to equip two of them until you get Monkey Grip?). I'm not sure, but I think I read something about that once.

[Scottg]

Originally Posted by Tricky

In addition, you could play as an half-orc and have a mage cast enlarge on you. However, that *might* cause 2-handed weapons to be counted as 1-handed weapons (despite not being able to equip two of them until you get Monkey Grip?). I'm not sure, but I think I read something about that once.

..anytime you have something in the off-hand position the weapon is regarded as a one-handed weapon. (..note that monkey grip wasn't included in the build. )

I don't think disarm will matter for Enlarge, but I could be wrong.

Enlarge might count for Knockdown though.. hmm, knocking down a Red Dragon, that has a certain appeal. Its probably immune though.

For disarm (beyond wielding a two-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon), the ONLY 2 things you have to be wary of are:

1. Moving around and picking up the weapons (if they aren't automatically placed in your inventory), thereby provoking attacks of opportunity (..though the feat Springing Attack removes this problem, and of course if the opponent is Knocked down it isn't a problem).

2. Rogue characters pick-pocketing them back. (..and of course you can keep disarming them.)

I think your right about the Half-Orc, I don't think that at 12 points Intelligence will incur any penalty to spending attribute points (but I could be wrong).

[Tricky]

..anytime you have something in the off-hand position the weapon is regarded as a one-handed weapon. (..note that monkey grip wasn't included in the build. )

I know, that's.. that wasn't really what I was going for. What I meant to say was that a 2-handed weapon might be counted as a 1-handed weapon in your disarm roll if you get really big (though likely it will still be equipped like a 2 handed weapon, unless you get monkey grip - which I shouldn't have added in the first place because that made my point confusing). It's the same kind of rule that lets a small weapon count as a slightly larger one in the hands of a Halfling. So you might gain an advantage by getting larger, only to lose that advantage because your weapon counts as a smaller one. You think? It might just even out.

[Claudius]

You might want monkey grip so you can disarm then whip out a tower shield +7 while your HIPS is cooling off? (if you fail to disarm)

[Scottg]

Enlarge.. Still don't know. I get what you were saying, I just don't know what the net effect is with disarm.

Half-Orc is a NO-GO, the attributes aren't even close.

Disarm & Monkey Grip..

But thats just it - you don't fail to disarm, OR if you do "fail" you can *immediately* disarm again (..and to the best of my knowledge there isn't anything you can really do to prevent a disarm).

Now a divine might build can still belt-out some damage even without a weapon - so it isn't a "cure-all". And of course there are Monk builds that don't have anything to disarm, and even if they do there is still a good potential for damage from some of them (that have lots of levels of Monk). The secondary effect to employ is then Knockdown, and most builds don't seem to have an immunity to knockdown.

OK then, what about nothing to disarm and immune to Knockdown *OR* failing to make a Knockdown? (..And unlike Disarm, occasionally failing a knockdown does happen with this build.)

So if you fail a knockdown then what?

1. You can keep on attacking until your hide ability "resets", OR

2. You can run away until your hide ability resets.

The second route is a LOT safer. For the first option *if* you had Monkey Grip you could continue attacking with your 2-handed weapon and a shield - BUT at a -2 penalty. Now that - 2 penalty may actually mean something against the most difficult opponents. In one respect your ability to hit might be considerably less. In another respect your ability to critical would almost certainly be much less, and with the exception of disarming an opponent, high criticals was the major reason to choose a Scythe. IMO your better option in this instance would be to equip a one-handed weapon and shield WITHOUT a -2 penalty.. and funny enough, it might even be your opponents one-handed weapon.

In any event..

Its really something to try-out for yourself and actually experience. That will of course also highlight that against some builds in the "Battle of the Builds" module, there will be a degree of finesse required.

[Tricky]

Enlarge Person :: d20srd.org

Though the weapon is enlarged too, IMO it's not conclusive whether this also counts for the weapon class. I wonder if you can use the feedback thingy in NWN2 to figure this one out, provided you enable it to show everything.

It would be so much easier if these things were just regular skills like Parry or Tumble. I don't even particularly understand why a larger person or weapon should have an easier time disarming. It seems more like a finesse/intelligence thing. But whatever.

[Scottg]

Originally Posted by Tricky

Enlarge Person :: d20srd.org

Though the weapon is enlarged too, IMO it's not conclusive whether this also counts for the weapon class. I wonder if you can use the feedback thingy in NWN2 to figure this one out, provided you enable it to show everything.

It would be so much easier if these things were just regular skills like Parry or Tumble. I don't even particularly understand why a larger person or weapon should have an easier time disarming. It seems more like a finesse/intelligence thing. But whatever.

Remember though that that is the real rule, and not likely to be the one implemented in NWN's 2.

I think the rational behind disarming with a large weapon was "sound". Large weapons have more mass and typically take more force to wield. Its not so much that it disarms you in the sense of a finesse move, but rather you get hit so hard that it knocks the weapon from your grip. Of course in that respect an equipped shield (effectiveness depending on size), should provide a counter to bash-like disarm.

I would have however *also* like to have seen a more finesse riposte disarm (like a fencer might). As it is I think the Duelist is a pretty pathetic epic class, it would have been nice to have seen an intelligence and dexterity based disarm available from every attack as a feat at a higher level.

Considering that Parry and Taunt are skills, yeah - disarm could have been a good skill.