Recommend magic char for solo play

[ferncliff]

Great spoiler king? Man, that doesn't sound too good. Good to be thought of as the king of something.... I guess . The unlimited gold exploits will ruin your game. It's more fun to be hanging on by your teeth. I do think the mana regeneration rates should be changed some of them are ridiculously slow. It should probably be if you fire off 2 of the same spell then you have 2 spells recharging as opposed to the way it is now where one spell charges at a time. I just think the regen rate relative to the cost of spells (especially rune spells) is unbalanced.

There used to be a link to a site that broke down in detail the class system and the bonuses etc. Does anyone know if that is still available? The link was posted in a thread a long time ago and I think the thread is now gone. I have been on these forums way to long.

I don't really want to cross the line to jerk here but if you guys are saying your wearing deathlord plate with only 1 occurrence of the skill heavy armor in your class tree, then i would have to say you either made some huge sacrifice by not advancing your other skills, spent DAYS fighting spawns to get the experience points, hacked your game or are exaggerating to prove a point. Of course it varies depending on how many points you put in intelligence but with one occurrence of heavy armor in your class tree it can cost over 10 million experience points to get even close to level 12. For perspective consider a level 12 character has only gained 3 million experience and a level 20 character has only gained 11,200,000 experience points. Or consider that the dungeon with the most availible experiance points (shadow ruins) only nets you around 3 million exp. Anyhow you can see my point. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

My bad on the spells only available to adept. All characters appear to get fire ward, ice ward, heal, silence, un-petrify, time and a few others. But again paladin and knight have the same armor skills and therefore have the same cost to raise their armor skill. Paladin gets access to the celestial spells lightning, ward of petrifaction, divine intervention, air, vision, purify, and some others and these spells never drop from chest or creatures in my experience. D

[Frodo1]

Originally Posted by ferncliff

I don't really want to cross the line to jerk here but if you guys are saying your wearing deathlord plate with only 1 occurrence of the skill heavy armor in your class tree, then i would have to say you either made some huge sacrifice by not advancing your other skills, spent DAYS fighting spawns to get the experience points, hacked your game or are exaggerating to prove a point. Of course it varies depending on how many points you put in intelligence but with one occurrence of heavy armor in your class tree it can cost over 10 million experience points to get even close to level 12. For perspective consider a level 12 character has only gained 3 million experience and a level 20 character has only gained 11,200,000 experience points. Or consider that the dungeon with the most availible experiance points (shadow ruins) only nets you around 3 million exp. Anyhow you can see my point. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

No offence taken if you're referencing me. You've earned my respect here by being a positive poster. Both of the builds I'm supporting get 2 bonuses to armor by level 10 when I complete the second tier quests. Either I get fighter/knight or fighter/valkyrie. BTW I do spend hours leveling with moonbeasts and minataurs (6 hours equates to about 3 to 3.5 million points). I prefer to work slow and create a well-built character. The game isn't a race, so taking a couple of evenings to level up makes the overall experience more enjoyable for me. I also take some bumps and bruises early on by putting serious points into intelligence. So, my experience use is very efficient. I also don't waste a single unnecessary point before getting my second first tier and both of my second tier bonuses. It might seem funny to tackle those second tier foes with level 1 in armor, but it surely works in the long run. I also don't mind running with a few penalty points for a few levels as I earn the ability to wear the armor effectively. The defense value makes up for any minor losses the penalty creates. There a a few other legit tricks that I use to manage xp. One is that I never put points into the thief tree. I rely on strength to open chests. This is a minor hinderance early, but is great later on when high disarm levels make opening low level chests a slow pain.

I do agree that it must be barely possible to get dl armor without penalty at early to mid levels with only one armor bonus. Yet, even a adept/pally can do it.

[goldenwarrior69]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferncliff

Great spoiler king? Man, that doesn't sound too good. Good to be thought of as the king of something.... I guess. The unlimited gold exploits will ruin your game. It's more fun to be hanging on by your teeth...

I don't really want to cross the line to jerk here but if you guys are saying your wearing deathlord plate with only 1 occurrence of the skill heavy armor in your class tree, then i would have to say you either made some huge sacrifice by not advancing your other skills, spent DAYS fighting spawns to get the experience points, hacked your game or are exaggerating to prove a point. Of course it varies depending on how many points you put in intelligence but with one occurrence of heavy armor in your class tree it can cost over 10 million experience points to get even close to level 12. For perspective consider a level 12 character has only gained 3 million experience and a level 20 character has only gained 11,200,000 experience points. Or consider that the dungeon with the most availible experiance points (shadow ruins) only nets you around 3 million exp. Anyhow you can see my point. Please correct me if you think I'm wrong.

Ferncliff, I did not mean to offend you with my reference to you being the Great Spoiler King. I was just tipping my hat to your Spoiler Treasure Map, which has been most useful to me, and although I have refered to it in several of my posts I never actually thanked you for creating it. Actually, my Get Rich Quick Method which you refered to, is without question the worst, or best, spoiler ever posted in this forum so I quess that would make me the Great Spoiler King!

And yes, I was able to wear Deathlord Armor with the builds mentioned. I also level up like Frodo1 early, for the same reasons he mentioned in the above post. In the start of the game I stand on pilons,(see my TOTD thread) with no armor and a bow, killing packs of wolves etc, so I can achieve level 5 before I even enter the sewers at Fargrove. I then hunt and kill dozens of Fire Drakes, very early in the game, (again, see my TOTD thread for details) as well as scores of Moonbeasts, and Minotaur Gladiators in the Arena in Skulldoon. I actually beat the game the first time as a level 48 Adept/Mage/Battlemage/Paladin/Crusader, and I was, in fact, wearing a complete set of Deathlord Armor with no penalty.

I am currently playing with a level 29 Mage/Fighter/Knight/Sorcerer/Wizard, and I am still early in the Game, having found only 3 Relics. I have Level 11 Heavy Armor skill, and I am wearing the Deathlord Plate, with only 1 penalty point. I found it very early in the Drakes breading grounds. I, like Frodo1, am not afraid of running with a few penalty points. I only lose 1 Strike, I Parry, and +24 Speed. This is a fair trade off for the 8 extra armor points I gain from the Deathlord Plate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferncliff

I do spend hours leveling with moonbeasts and minataurs (6 hours equates to about 3 to 3.5 million points). I prefer to work slow and create a well-built character. The game isn't a race, so taking a couple of evenings to level up makes the overall experience more enjoyable for me. I also take some bumps and bruises early on by putting serious points into intelligence. So, my experience use is very efficient. I also don't waste a single unnecessary point before getting my second first tier and both of my second tier bonuses. It might seem funny to tackle those second tier foes with level 1 in armor, but it surely works in the long run. I also don't mind running with a few penalty points for a few levels as I earn the ability to wear the armor effectively. The defense value makes up for any minor losses the penalty creates. There a a few other legit tricks that I use to manage xp. One is that I never put points into the thief tree. I rely on strength to open chests. This is a minor hinderance early, but is great later on when high disarm levels make opening low level chests a slow pain.

Frodo1, you and I seem to be on the same wavelength. I appreciate your well thought out and descriptive posts. My game strategy is very similar to yours, in fact almost identical. Like you, I use my experience points wisely, especially early in the game, however, I never thought about sacrificing Thief Skills. Exactly how do you open your chests? Do you use the Bash option? If so, how does that work?

GW

[ferncliff]

Originally Posted by goldenwarrior69

Quote:
Ferncliff, I did not mean to offend you with my reference to you being the Great Spoiler King.
GW

I wasn't offended. It's good to be the king. D

[Damn Snakes!]

I have beaten this game 5 times now... (yes, addicted) and I have never figured out how to 'bash' a chest either... (kinda pathetic, I know...)

so... how do you bash a chest?

[Frodo1]

Originally Posted by goldenwarrior69

Frodo1, I never thought about sacrificing Thief Skills. Exactly how do you open your chests? Do you use the Bash option? If so, how does that work?

GW

Thanks for the kind words. Honestly, your positive posts and information about what's right with 1.4 kept me from possibly unloading the game after my last bug experience that I noted in another thread.

The way I am able to skip thieving completely is to play up to level 6 before entering the sewers. I just stand on the porches of the 2 shacks and hack away at all comers.

I use strength to bash open chests and to open that one locked door. I found that you need to get strength up to level 35 or higher to manage low level chests in the sewers. I think that I push the skill up towards 40 to improve the possibilities on the level 4 chests. By the time I reach 70 strength I can open that level 8 chest in dragon country. I have 64% chance at of opening an 8th level chest with at a strength of 70. It is a very reliable action with skill at higher levels and it's a lot easier than disarming traps.

The downside early is that you have to take damage every time you open a chest. Having excess potions makes that not a problem at all. The problem is that I have to do the sewers and theatre in my skivvy's cause my light armor will quickly degrade and dissapear.

Pumping up strength like this has been easy for me since I'm using Urgoth's lately. I think it could be done with any character though, since I have to use a lot of points to build up intelligence at the same time. It would be the reverse process for a female elf for instance.

One of the odd things I have found doing this is that I can bash open the locked door in the sewers and that I don't have to worry about the lock jamming if I fail the first time. Save of course, before trying it.

Edit: inaccurate numbers corrected

[goldenwarrior69]

Earlier Post by goldenwarrior69

Quote:
...Like you, I use my experience points wisely, especially early in the game, however, I never thought about sacrificing Thief Skills. Exactly how do you open your chests? Do you use the Bash option? If so, how does that work?

This is the second time that I actually asked anyone gaming advice since I've been posting on this site. I have to thank you Frodo1, for your answer. This is the best game tactic that I have learned from someone else in this forum.

I immediately loaded up one of my chars with over 80 strength and bashed open my first chest. Hey Ferncliff, it works great! I just assumed that bash not working was just another bug, after I tried to bash open chests a few times when I first started playing the game. I am so happy now that I can apply the significant amount of saved exp points elsewhere, and eliminate the tedium of disarming chests, especially in the latter part of the game. I always build high strength in my chars anyway, as I try to wear Death Armor fairly early in the game, so I was just wasting alot of exp points on Thief skills. Thanks man!

I just started a new char, Egwene, a Female Elf Mage. She is my first female char, and I am looking forward to trying out her spellcasting possibilities. I see what you mean about the armor melting away...although its kinda fun to see her in her bra and panties...

Anyway, I have her up to level 5, with 22 strength and 21 intelligence, and will enter the sewers when I reach 30 strength...

GW

[Gaal Dornik]

Comparing Arcane and Celestial magic it appears for me that C. is vastly superior.

Arcane magic offers damage, damage and some more damage, and nothing more. Mostly fire and ice, with some stun effects sometimes. Which
a. can be resisted
b. nothing a sword cant do

Celestial magic offers a very high variety of different spells, excellent to have for everyone. Healing, summons, scouting, thieving, water-breathing, damage, protection, buffing, boni vs unnatural creatures. And sure as hell you want them to last longer and be more powerful. Moderately damaging spell(s) is also included, dealing uncommon magic or lightning damage. Also you dont need to micromanage potions. Not to forget that most spells are available early on. All in one, celestial magic offers a powerful and highly flexible game.

Nether magic is kinda cumbersome to use(never used it, so dont know) and contains mostly summons(..) and foes affecting spells, if you can find the ingredients that is. The problem is, monsters will not wait 'till you casted all these spells on them

What good is arcane magic if you are being fried up by a fire drake. As for healing animations, potion drinking has an animation too, both are pretty very short with a high speed anyway.

[swcarter]

Originally Posted by Gaal Dornik

What good is arcane magic if you are being fried up by a fire drake.

If you have the "cataclysm" spell, then you're not going to get fried by a fire drake. The fire drake is going to die in about five seconds.

SWC

[Gaal Dornik]

swcarter
Just yesterday killed one with celestial spells Ward of Fire(lvl4) and Divine Strike(lvl6). And a decent weapon ofc. In a game i just explored Skuldoon ( got a nice mace there. ). Plain default thing, no uber. (Actually i dont know, since i havent completed a game yet )

Ward of Fire made me nearly immune vs his attacks, doh. And Divine Strike seems to work vs many creatures strangely, and increases damage by about 50% (went from avg. 20 to 30 dmg points per strike).

It was certainly not 5 secs, but not a threat either. With 3 low level celestial spells. 2 lvl4 and 1 lvl6 plz. And what can arcane magic offer at that level.

[kromm_71]

Originally Posted by arbiter

It's tough playing as a magic user all by my lonesome

Can anyone recommend a build that has a chance of survival?

Here's my breakdown of things. This is my first crack at DL. I'm playing 1.4. I love magic users but I heard the game is morrowindish in that magic users are underpowered which, btw I don't agree. And I don't expect a d&d sorc that can solo against dragons and demi-liches.

If you want info on a power char, I don't have the exp to give advice. Note that I play my char as a f/m. I melee Well and sling spells.

I have a lvl 10 solo elf female mage/sorceror. The starter dungeon was tough--can't fight, and spell power is lousy, but that is expected. All magic users start crpg's really weak. Bows are useful for low lvl mag chars.

Officially, my char is a sorc, but I've defacto delevoped a f/m/t. I pump arcane magic, followed by magic weapon, moderate thief skills, armor. Magic weapon is unique to only a few classes, so I consider it still magic use.

Pump athletics so you can roll and cast, flip and hit. Money is not a problem (not using money workarounds). Buy spellbooks. My lvl 10 has 20 shrieking star, 15 fb, 4 bn, 25 mm among others and still 30,000 gp to spare. Gold farming in the bolen fields yields alot of magus staffs and grim shields--mule these to town. 2 staffs lets you buy a fb spell. One tour through the fields and you should be able to buy several spellbooks. I imagine if I did this for a couple of hours, I could double my spell charges. If this is old hat to you, I'm sorry but it's new for me.

Don't forget that a single shrieking star with arcane 9 devastates lesser opponents and seriously hurts moderate enemies. I melee alot and my nether staff deals out 10 - 20 damage--it is enough...for now. I sport medium armor. My dex and agil is at 50+. If I wanted to be a pure spell slinger, I would develop nether skills and alchemy.

As in Diablo 2, any magic user in a small locked room with a boss is in trouble. Anyone here remember Act II, fighting with a solo sorc against Duriel? The only time I nearly got stuck was my lvl 5 or 6 against the final elder trial. That took me 4 hours to do-first killing the boss with my bow, and 40 potions against the spawns.

Otherwise I'm having no trouble. I always remain flexible--I keep 100,000 adv points in reserve. If i bog down, I have 2 class spec open (i'm questing for wizard), I can turnaround and quest for a fighter type class. I keep pumping my agil making me faster. Note on flexibility: I only spend points when there's something I want to use or I bog down. If I can deal with 2 moonbeasts or dispatch a troll giant with ease, my char is fine.

My fighting style: sling a couple of spells, charge in (I always get 3 hits in first), flip out, turn and roll to the side, shrieking star to push back flanking enemies, enter the gap created, cast nova, flip out. It doesn't take long and I don't get hit very often. I find the style works in tight places too.

To play without melee, I don't see it. I would be out of spells after a couple of battles. Magic here doesn't have the firepower like in d&d.

I hope this helps. Your post said you were looking for survival in the game. I'm finding that as the monsters get tougher, I get more points to spend on agil and dex allowing me to keep up. For an elf, agil is not expensive and when monsters are routinely delivering 2000 points, it only takes a few to add agil--and I'm killing them by the score. Fortunetely str is not important in melee. Maybe in the demigoth lands I'll run into trouble, but then I have a large point reserve that lets me redirect my char development.

Worst case: farm the moonbeasts to get the points necessary for str and go for heavy armor, farm the bolen fields for the gold to stock up on spells. These 2 areas can be a quick easy fix for any mispent points or money.

Remember I'm using my agil and relying on being faster than my enemies. I use several save games in case I get screwed in a dungeon. I hoard scrolls so I can unleash a terrible amount of firepower in a confined space.

kromm

[dlowrey]

Originally Posted by kromm_71

Bows are useful for low lvl mag chars

kromm

Great writeup Kromm.

Even with a fighter, I save by the first chest and keep opening it till I get a bow. It REALLY helps with the poison spewing slimes in the sewers....

[kromm_71]

Thanks, Dlowrey ,

I agree, bows are almost indespensible for early chars. It allows a char to deal out at least some damage from a relatively safe distance and to "return the favor" to ranged equip monsters.

kromm

[chamr]

I've just started a pure mage character. I took the Goblin Staff from the goblin mage sitting on the porch of one of the sheds in the opening northern woods. 1 point in lt pole, 1 pt in magic weaponry and whamo! I'm whuppin butt. Killing things more easily than I did with previous rogue and fighter characters, at least for now...

P.S. this is CE, by the way.

[Scottg]

Originally Posted by Frodo1

..the following advantages:
1) Access to heavy weapons, armor, and shields with more than adequate learning bonuses to use any shield or weapon and wear Deathlord’s armor.
2) The learning bonuses in Arcane magic, by far and away the most powerful and effective offensive magic type. Plus, 2 learning bonuses in Nether magic, the most varied magic type and the second most powerful.
With this set of classes you’ll be an awesome fighter in addition to the most powerful mage possible, at least for a male.

Best female caster is a Mage-Fighter-Sorcerer-Valkyrie-War Witch. This is an even more powerful character than the above. War Witch is the most powerful caster class by far. It offers:
1) 3 learning bonuses of Arcane, 2 of Nether, 2 of Rune, and 1 of Celestial. Nuff said.
2) In addition to the above, it offers the same benefits for armor, shields, and weapons, with the addition of adding heavy pole arms to your arsenal.

My take on all this is that you need to melee often no matter how you set up a magic caster. It’s just a necessity. Having fighter instead of Adept allows you to max powerful magic classes and get just enough bonuses for the other stuff to be viable. A second point is who would want to basically throw away a Deathlord’s Plate, the Shield of the Dragon, or an awesome heavy weapon because you couldn’t possibly reach the requirements for equipping it without a massive penalty?

I realize this is an older thread and post, but after reading numerous threads here this is one of the better ones (perhaps the best) I've seen on character creation for this game.

I have a few questions with regard to the logic here (and some interaction with the CE version). (Note that I haven't even started playing the game yet - But of course I want to plan an excellent character before playing, so please bear this in mind with regard to my novice questioning.)

Ok then, I like the idea of better magic than melee capability (say 65%magic/35%melee). ..And of course I want the best build possible to meet this paramater.

From various posts I've surmised (correctly or not) the following:

Magic Generally:

1. *casted* magic is weak early in the game, both in power and more importantly frequency (i.e. multiple spells).
2. as the game progresses *casted* magic is particularly usefull for eliminating large groups/enemy "swarms".
3. *casted* magic and high level opponents AND tight spots can be difficult, strongly suggesting the need for melee capability.
5. non-casted magic via many magic weapons overcomes the "frequency" limitation and scales in power with the magic user's class/discipline and skill as long as the magic user meets the prerequisites for that weapon (Magic Weapon skill), AND the weapon's effect is based on the magic user's discipline and skill (..i.e. an arcane weapon effect is *only* increased in power with an arcane specific discipline class level and/or increasing skill ability in the arcane discipline - not with say the nether discipline).

Classes, Tiers, Leaning Bonuses, Skills, Heraldrys, and Prerequisites generally:

1. The greater number of classes in a specific discipline, the stronger that discipline will be all else equal. (i.e. a character with a mage class and a battle mage class will be stronger in either arcane or nether magic than a character with just the mage class and other non-arcane/nether classes.)
2. The higher the class Tier in a specific discipline, the stronger that discipline will be all else equal. (i.e. a character with a mage class and the tier 2 battle mage class will be stronger in arcane AND nether magic, despite NOT having a learning bonus in nether magic, than simply a mage class character.)
3. The higher the skill points in a discipline, the stronger that discipline will be all else equal.
4. The higher the class Tier in specific discipline, the easier it will be to increase skills in that discipline (..though learning bonuses have more impact).
5. The more learing bonuses for a skill, the easier it is to increase that skill.
6. Learning bonuses are *extremely important* and are class specific, so choose your classes carefully to maximise their number in skills you deem important.
7. Certain skills are only available to certain classes, this is particularly important with regard to prerequisits. (i.e. the WarWitch class not only requires a female (and a second tier sisterhood class), but also requires skill points in Heavy Weapons, Heavy Armor, and Heavy Shields - all of which are available to only a few classes.) Note that this is NOT the case for earlier versions of the game (i.e. before 1.4).
8. Heraldry's can offer some substantial bonuses - and should be HEAVILY factored into character planning. Note again, this is NOT the case for earlier versions of the game (i.e. before 1.4). Additionally, there is a maximum of 10 Heraldry's in the game, if an eleventh heraldry is gained it will replace the 10th Heraldry.
________________________________________

1st question: Are these assumptions correct?
________________________________________

With the above information (assuming its correct), planning a character (as desired: excellent magic 65% and melee 35%) suggests the following:

1. The desire for varied magic ability suggests having access AND stregth/power in all 4 magic disciplines (i.e. Arcane, Nether, Celestial, and Rune).
2. To obtain strength/power in each discipline, numerous class Tiers and Learning Bonuses are neccesary that complement each discipline.
3. The requirement from number 2 suggests magic oriented classes at the expense of melee oriented classes IF required.
4. Melee ability must be compensated for, AND that compensation must be appropriate as the character develops.
5. The requirement of number 4 suggests several things: A. that melee capability can be augmented via magic weapons and magic augmentation and defenses; B. that armor can be augmented via magic defenses; C. that mixed classes should be chosen with melee specific learning bonuses; D. that "timing" these is important for an efficient and effective character at any stage of the game.

The *best* method to plan charcter development is to start with where you want to end-up.. i.e. a "top-down" view (or which tier 3 class?).

So from a "top down" look at character creation.. the best tier 3 class to meet the requirements of #1 above is the War Witch.

http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlo...s/warwitch.php

It is the ONLY magic class with all 4 disciplines of study, additionally it also has emphasis on melee capability. Of course with such a multi-disciplined character it will be more difficult to optimize, and as a result more difficult to play for at least the first half of the game. With that in mind, which classes will augment this final class AND allow for a less difficult "first half of the game"?

Well first of all there is the issue of prerequisites for the War Witch (and in particular the "sticking" points):
A. Must be a female Character
B. Must have a second Tier Sisterhood class: (Valkyrie or Enchantress)
C. Must have the difficult to obtain skills: (Heavy Weapon, Heavy Armor, Heavy Shield)

For "A" there are only two solutions Human Female or Elf Female - and I'm not sure which will be better for this build.. so:
________________________________

Second question: which female is better and why when considering all aspects of the character build?
________________________________

For "C" we have ONLY these choices: (Paladin, Knight, Battlemage, Valkyrie)
http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlo...es/paladin.php
http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlo...ses/knight.php
http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlo...battlemage.php
http://www.gamebanshee.com/dungeonlo...s/valkyrie.php

To fully assess the development path of the character we need to consider cumulative classes, learning bonuses, and available Heraldrys when looking at these 4 classes in relation to other class options. This is what Frodo1 did above - and where I question the build he had given (i.e. "Mage-Fighter-Sorcerer-Valkyrie-War Witch") - and not incidentally where others questioned it as well.

OK then.. all of these Tier 2 classes have these attributes in common:
A. Learning Bonuses: Armor Skills & Shield Skills
B. New Skills: Heavy Armor, Heavy Shields, Heavy Weapons

The Learning Bonus differences for each class are:
Paladin: Basic Weapon Skills, Parry, Rune Magic
Knight: Basic Weapon Skills
Battlemage: Arcane Magic, Magic Weaponry, Repair
Valkyrie: Pole Weapon Skills, Rune Magic, Weapons Skills

The New Skills differences for each class are:
Paladin:Channel
Knight: -nada-
Battlemage: Scribe
Valkryie: Heavy Poles

Just looking at the Learning Bonus differences I notice that Knight gets "hosed". That the other 3 have some form of Magic bonus: 2 Runes and 1 Arcane - which is of paramount importance over any melee bonus. Therefor the selection will be from one of the 3 classes (Paladin, Battlemage, or Valkyrie) with a magic learning bonus.