Party Creation, need advices...

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SP101
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Party Creation, need advices...

Postby SP101 » Sat Apr 02, 2005 2:54 pm

Ok, this isn't my first go-through, but I still need advices to create my party.

Up to now, I have :

- PC : Human lvl9 fighter dualled to a druid. This one will use staves, slings and spears. I may use the Berserkers kit, since I won't use slings too often.

- Keto : Human Bard (I may SK her to Human Jester or Skald...). She will use Bows, Darts, Long/Sword swords (Mainly daystar against undead).

- Aerie : Half-Elf Mage/Cleric. She will use staves and slings, even if she won't need weapons that much. Main spellcaster, using both divine and arcana magics to buff/attack/summon.

- Jan Jansen : Gnome Thief/Illusionnist. This one will use Short Swords, Crossbows, and maybe katanas or scimitars laters. Second spellcaster, will mainly use offensives and dispels spells.

As you can see, this party will lack a tank. Someone solid, who can hit hard and take many hits. I want him/her to use weapons my 4 characters won't/can't use :
- Blunt Weapons (Maces, Hammers and Flails)
- Axes
- Halberds
- Two-Handed swords
- Bastard Swords (Keto maybe?)
- Katana (Jan maybe?)

I may add Keldon, and have him equipement with 2-Handed Swords and/or Halberds...

Mazzy could be a good choice... but I've already some1 for bows, and Keto/Jan will take short swords. An option here is to SK her into a fighter/cleric.. and gives her blunt weapons profiencies, with Sword & Shield.

Also, Minsc could be a choice, with his berserk + dual-wielding maces and another weapon (Bastard sword, axe, hammer of flail?), he could do some serious damages.

Valygar too could be some1 to pick. He could use Katanas and Long Bows.

Haer'Dalis could be cool too, since I love bards (and blades :D ). I would just have him dual-wield blunt weapons (Maybe SKing him?) and use sword swords Keto/Jan won't use.

Keep in mind I don't want to use Sarevok/Korgan, even if they are formidables tanks!

Thx for the comments!

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Postby Phantom Lord » Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:56 pm

It boils down to Mazzy or Keldorn. Mazzy means small weapons and mastery (technically she could use two handed weapons, but from a roleplaying point of view that would be quite questionable), Keldorn means big weapons and specialization plus his paladin abilities (altough Mazzy has a Paladin-like Lay on Hands and even is refered to as paladin in some dialog iirc).

For sheer firepower I'd go with Mazzy (with short sword of Mask & shield or short bow, plus some strength enhancing item and boots of speed), for a little more versatility I'd go with Keldorn (... and Carsomyr).

The choice finally depends on your playing style, if you want an anti-tank tank, it's gonna be Mazzy. If you want an anti-mage tank, it's gonna be Keldorn.

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Postby fable » Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:08 pm

Keldorn, no question, unless you want to edit Mazzy into a paladin. Though the idea of that little tyke wielding that big sword is rather amusing. ;)
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Postby Phantom Lord » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:39 am

[QUOTE=fable]Though the idea of that little tyke wielding that big sword is rather amusing. ;) [/QUOTE]By the rule, Halflings count as size S creatures and two-handed swords count as size L weapons (there are 3 sizes: S, M and L). A creature can wield a weapon of its own size one-handed and a weapon one size bigger than itself two-handed. It can not wield a weapon two sizes bigger than itself. Unfortunately, this is not implemented in BG2.

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Postby fable » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:46 am

[QUOTE=Phantom Lord]A creature can wield a weapon of its own size one-handed and a weapon one size bigger than itself two-handed. It can not wield a weapon two sizes bigger than itself. Unfortunately, this is not implemented in BG2.[/QUOTE]

I would personally love to see Mazzy missing a save roll, falling on her two-hander and slicing herself in half. ;)
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Postby Faust » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:19 am

[QUOTE=fable]I would personally love to see Mazzy missing a save roll, falling on her two-hander and slicing herself in half. ;) [/QUOTE]

For humor value or some personal distaste for Mazzy?

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Postby Erenor » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:19 pm

[QUOTE=fable]I would personally love to see Mazzy missing a save roll, falling on her two-hander and slicing herself in half. ;) [/QUOTE]

That's kinda sick, but what a great critical miss, right?!
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Postby SP101 » Sun Apr 03, 2005 11:22 pm

[QUOTE=fable]I would personally love to see Mazzy missing a save roll, falling on her two-hander and slicing herself in half. ;) [/QUOTE]

Hehe, strange comportment from the moderator who always try to keep people on topic!

-----------------------------------------

To return to the 1st subject :

I've decided to take Keldorn with me. Since I've picked him up, I can slay most mages supprisingly easily, without any needs for breaching and pre-buffing... So far he's still using his own equipement, but I'm planning on giving him Lilacor +3 as soon as I've done the Copper Coronet's quests.

Now I'm on another decision... I have currently 5 party members. Should I :

Add another character? Who?

- Anomen could be a nice choice since I have no blunt weapons users (except staves)... I could even Romance him, since my PC is a girl.

- Minsc too could be cool... maces + a few other profiencies to distribute... he could also use all the nices 2-handed swords Keldy won't use when he'll have Carsomyr. Dual-wielding is always an option for Minsc, and he could use Long Bows too.

- Valygar, as a scout/backstabber... could use Katana, Spears and Bows.

Do not add any character (more XP quickly vs more banters vs more versatility?)

What would YOU do?

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Postby fable » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:24 am

Okay, okay:

Bad moderator. Bad, bad. No gnarled members' bones today for you!

There. I hope you're all satisfied. ;)

Back to subject: Mazzy *is* good, and presumably she can come close to equaling Keldorn in one respect by buying (or stealing) all those Arrows of Dispelling in town; but she really can't cut it at close range. The definition of a tank is a party member that can withstand fierce melee attacks. I'm not saying Mazzy couldn't take on a pivot role in the party you've described, because I like "challenge" parties that require strategic finesse to work. But she's not a tank, not by a long stretch.
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Postby SP101 » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:41 am

[QUOTE=fable]Bad moderator. Bad, bad. No gnarled members' bones today for you!

There. I hope you're all satisfied. ;) [/QUOTE]

Yeah... satisfied now ;)

[QUOTE=fable]
Back to subject: Mazzy *is* good, and presumably she can come close to equaling Keldorn in one respect by buying (or stealing) all those Arrows of Dispelling in town; but she really can't cut it at close range. The definition of a tank is a party member that can withstand fierce melee attacks. I'm not saying Mazzy couldn't take on a pivot role in the party you've described, because I like "challenge" parties that require strategic finesse to work. But she's not a tank, not by a long stretch.[/QUOTE]

Well... I've never imagined what mazzy with Tuigan's bow +1 could do with dispelling arrows equiped... that would be amazing to see... same for exploding arrows!

Maybe I could give her a try with short bows Keto won't use & another weapon...

This brings another dilemna :
Should Mazzy use her profiencies into :
- Short Swords (Remember, both Keto and Jan already cover those)
- Katanas
- Flails
- Hammers
- Maces
- Axes
- Bastard Swords
- Another weapon? (Sling, darts, clubs, daggers... etc.)

My roleplaying sense told me to exclude 2-handed swords and halberds from the list...

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Postby UserUnfriendly » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:17 am

ever thought of jaheira as a tank?

ironskin, improved haste (via a mage or item), globe of blades, blade barrier, and decent thaco with strength belt...dual wield scimatars, or staff...

:p

i don't use real traditional tanks, ever...stoneskin/ironskin is better than low ac, and jaheira is superb if you set up her protections before battle...also, you can stack armor of faith and hardiness... :cool: :p
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Postby SP101 » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:09 am

[QUOTE=UserUnfriendly]ever thought of jaheira as a tank?

ironskin, improved haste (via a mage or item), globe of blades, blade barrier, and decent thaco with strength belt...dual wield scimatars, or staff...

i don't use real traditional tanks, ever...stoneskin/ironskin is better than low ac, and jaheira is superb if you set up her protections before battle...also, you can stack armor of faith and hardiness... :cool: :p [/QUOTE]

Yeah, but Jaheira is basically just a copy of my own PC... with slower levels and no mastery (I have 5 stars in staves, 2 in 2-handed weapons, 1 in spear, 1 in scimitars, 1 in slings and 1 in single weapon style.

But I agree with your : Stoneskin/Ironskin are the way to go for tanking... I used Jaheira only twice, but Ironskin/Insect Plague/Summon Fire Elemental were just too good... that's why I go through BG2 with a Fighter/Druid right now =)

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Postby Phantom Lord » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:29 am

[QUOTE=fable]Okay, okay:

Bad moderator. Bad, bad. No gnarled members' bones today for you!

There. I hope you're all satisfied. ;) [/QUOTE]Well, we at least appreciate your attempt to return to civility. :D

[QUOTE=fable]But she's not a tank, not by a long stretch.[/QUOTE]Wrong.

Mazzy is at least as good as Korgan if you develop her weapon skills properly. Equip her with Boots of Speed, any strength girdle, Short Sword of Mask, proper armor and shield and see what happens. You can of course develop her towards dual-wield and her high Dex covers the AC loss from having no shield pretty well (Crom off-hand).

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Postby Cuchulain82 » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:32 am

Just out of curiosity, why the aversion to Sarevok & Korgan? If you don't like them I can see, and Korgan can be a tough fit for good parties. Sarevok might be exactly what you are looking for though.
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Postby Faust » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:11 am

I'm still not sure I get the limitations of Mazzy as a tank. I mean, quite frankly, her starting constitution (16) is decent, and her dexterity is quite good (18). She can use all the armor the other tanks can, as well. Given, Sarevok and Keldorn probably both have advantages over her. Still, she's at least as good of a tank as Minsc in terms of raw stats, I'd think. Now, perhaps her weapon proficiencies are not to some people's tastes, but that's a different matter.

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Postby fable » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:13 pm

[QUOTE=Phantom Lord]Wrong.

Mazzy is at least as good as Korgan if you develop her weapon skills properly. Equip her with Boots of Speed, any strength girdle, Short Sword of Mask, proper armor and shield and see what happens. You can of course develop her towards dual-wield and her high Dex covers the AC loss from having no shield pretty well (Crom off-hand).[/QUOTE]

So you're saying Mazzy has the hit points of Keldorn, thus acting as a tank: someone who can withstand being subjected to concentrated melee attacks from several parties at once?

Because if not, she's not a good tank. She may have great skill in other areas, but a tank is someone that deliberately absorbs all the damage you can throw at it.
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Postby Faust » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:36 pm

[QUOTE=fable]So you're saying Mazzy has the hit points of Keldorn, thus acting as a tank: someone who can withstand being subjected to concentrated melee attacks from several parties at once?

Because if not, she's not a good tank. She may have great skill in other areas, but a tank is someone that deliberately absorbs all the damage you can throw at it.[/QUOTE]

I've not studied the stats closely (and never really used Mazzy), but does Keldorn have a big hit point advantage over Mazzy? Considering that there starting Constitutions are 17 and 16 respectively, they should be roughly parallel in terms of hit point. That is, unless Bioware did some NPC voodoo, which is entirely possible!

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Postby SP101 » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:54 pm

[QUOTE=Cuchulain82]Just out of curiosity, why the aversion to Sarevok & Korgan? If you don't like them I can see, and Korgan can be a tough fit for good parties. Sarevok might be exactly what you are looking for though.[/QUOTE]

Korgan : Used him twice. He's THE ultimate tank IMO. Now that I'm playing a good party, with aerie, he won't join for this go through.

Sarevok : I've already tried him once... and *may* take him in ToB, but I'm looking for a SoA character right now...

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Postby Cuchulain82 » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:38 pm

I have to agree with Fable- Keldorn's your guy. Follow my logic:

Your party needs someone with some beef who can use heavy armor and pointy weapons. Keldorn, Minsc, and Mazzy all fit this description. You should probably have a someone using two handed swords too, which leaves out Mazzy*

(*Mazzy isn't really a traditional tank anyway- she is strongest as an archer with the aformentioned shortbow. She could be converted, but why convert her when there are other characters that come ready-made?)

Minsc and Keldorn both weild two handed swords, but Keldorn weilds Carsomyr and Minsc doesn't. If that wasn't enough, Keldorn has access to Summon Deva and Misnc doesn't. This spell alone will help keep the heat off of your other spellcasters.

The biggest differences, as far as I'm concerned, are Keldorn's Inquisitor abilities. You don't have a single-classed sorcerer or mage, but you do have the "mage by committee" approach going with 3 half mages (Aeire, Jan, Keto). Having Keldorn's dispel ability available will bail you out of tough situations. Plus, if you get sick of him, you can easily exchange Keldorn for Sarevok later in TOB.
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Postby flounder » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:51 pm

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Mazzy can be an extremely powerful fighter in a good party. (Korgan IS the ultimate tank in an evil party). I maxed out her proficiencies in short bow and short sword, and to understate the topic, she is a MORE than capable fighter. Equipped with Tuigans Bow (she got something like 5 attacks a round), dual wield Short Sword of Mask and Arbane's Sword (9 attacks every 2 rounds), boots of speed, and a strength girdle, she was devastating. While she didn't do a lot of damage per hit, she did a lot by volume. With more than adequate hit points, she definitely couldn't stand there and go toe-to-toe in a melee struggle, but could hold her own long enough to entangle an enemy with the Sword of Mask, then run away and pepper them with arrows. And yes, against wizards she dominated with Arrows of Dispelling. Needless to say, Mazzy is one of my favorite good NPC Fighter characters to play. That's my 10 cents, my 2 cents is free. :D