Idiots vs. Brainers

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fluffy_ferret
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Postby fluffy_ferret » Mon Jan 01, 2001 11:57 am

The mage of course. Mages can just cast a bunch of protective spells like mirror mage, reflected image or the like and then hold, confuse, command or whatever and then just sit back and cast all his offensive spells.

The paladin doesn't stand a chance.

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Lucian
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Postby Lucian » Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:18 pm

so what about this?

give this to a figther

cloak of mirroring
ring of free action
shield of harmony

what spells will i say....only lots of summoning can in this case save the skin of the mage

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Caernarvon
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Postby Caernarvon » Mon Jan 01, 2001 1:17 pm

Originally posted by mikel:
Protection from magic is a protective scroll, it does not hinder you to use magic yourselve. This can be done by another spell (unavailable in the computer game : anti-magic shell)
Improved)


Try casting a protection from magic scroll on a mage. It WILL NOT disable your spell casting icon, but it WILL make your spell casting failure rate 100%. The item description clearly says, "Spells: Cannot be cast"

I loaded a final save to test it on Irenicus, and sure enough it prevented him from casting any spells. However, it did not stop contingencies from firing. I'm unsure exactly how it effects spell triggers.

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Weasel
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Postby Weasel » Mon Jan 01, 2001 1:27 pm

Alright I give you this..

Give this to a mage.


Staff of the Magi

Cloak of Mirroring

Ring of Free Action


I know this will be a very interesting fight. As for Sanctuary it is a cleric spell I believe.

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(I would betray the world before i let the world betray me.) Chao Chao 192 a.d.
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.

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Caernarvon
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Postby Caernarvon » Mon Jan 01, 2001 1:36 pm

I hadn't finished the battle when I posted the last message, and as I played on I noted some more interesting things. Irenicus's midlead contingency seemed to work, but protection from magical weapons didn't.

I looked into InfinityEditorPro's Item Maker to see what was going on. In addition to graphical effects, Protection from Magic Scrolls have the following effects:

1) Miscast magic: 100% spell casting failure. I don't know why they didn't just disable the spell casting button though--it's very easy to do.

2) A protection from spells entry for each spell level from 1 to 9. This explains why protection from magical weapons in the contingency didn't work. Any spell which targets the mage will fail, regardless of whether or not it's in a contingency. This suggests that a spell sequencer with 3 fireballs in it would, if fact, work.



[This message has been edited by Caernarvon (edited 01-01-2001).]

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Jylyn
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Postby Jylyn » Mon Jan 01, 2001 3:38 pm

Depends, I know my sorc could take a fighter if he's across the map basically if you have your spell triggers down it wont be much of a fight... and if you have time stop its about impossible for the fighter...

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The Nutless One
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Postby The Nutless One » Mon Jan 01, 2001 4:06 pm

Mages hand down. Fighter's no kits would die badly, since Mages have access to Timestop's.

Let's balance this fight high.
Paladin/Inquisitor- Red Dragon scale/2gaxx/cloak of sewers/ammy +1/carsomyr

So let's say give him 12 HD at cap. Given stat requirements, he probably has something like 18/00,16,18 which are the only stats that matter. He would end up with AC -12, 50% magic resist, and saving throws at 1 or 2, dispels magic every hit.

Now let's take a look at the mage. Equipment. Robe of Vecna/staff of magi/amulet of power/2gaxx/cloak of protection +2. Stats would be 18dex,18con,18int. Around 6 or 7 level 8 spells, and then roughly 1 or 2 more for each level going down the line. 5 timestop scrolls, 5 protection from magic weapons, 5 tenser's x-form. Base AC 5, +4 dex bonus, +6 equip bonus, and ac -5. Saving throws roughly the same as paladin. Spell casting time -6 (vecna gives a decrease of 5). Fireshield, Protections, stoneskin, and every spell under level 7 are instantaneous (because of casting time).

Now, start them at max distance from each other. Don't argue about standing them next to each other, because that is putting the mage at a handi-cap. If you want to do that, then give the paladin a non-proficient +1 weapon. Anyways, back to the scenario. Timestop goes off, when the inquisitor is half-way to the mage. Mage's first spell. So dispels are useless until then. Trigger's triple skull trap so thats 51d6 damage, with save for half. So, let's say he makes all his saves. 153 damage. Dead right away. There we go. Or, he could just memorize a bunch of skull traps, and keep tossing them. Or we can tilt the odds even more, and still keep it fair. Put the mage at an odd corner of the map, and the inquisitor at the other. Wizard eye, and 4 Mordenkain Sword's scouting him out, while the invis mage hides somewhere. Fighters would die twice as fast, since they lack special abilities. Kensai's have the best chance, because AC means less in mage fights, were saves count more. You really can't say "can't use so-and-so spell" because in fact, mages CAN use that spell, because it is available to them, and if you put in that stipulation, the following scenario won't mean anything.

Oops, forgot Paladin MR. Two Lower resists, which takes 3 rounds, and then the spell trigger. So that's at worst, half the time a TimeStop gives you. And you can toss in a power word: kill scroll just in case he saves.

[This message has been edited by The Nutless One (edited 01-01-2001).]
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Alienbob
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Postby Alienbob » Mon Jan 01, 2001 4:29 pm

What if the Paldin had the cloak of mirroring?

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magusg
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Postby magusg » Mon Jan 01, 2001 4:31 pm

Like someone else said, there are so many variables. But I think it comes down to this: If the two combatants are prepared for the fight, the mage wins. If not, the fighter will probably win. But if the mage has a bunch of spell-time reducing items, he could cast a spell, say Abil-Dhalzim's Horrid Wilting, and run around in circles, and cast it again. In my case, I always have two or three of those memorized, so my PC-mage would win unless the fighter has some special items of his own.

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Omar
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Postby Omar » Mon Jan 01, 2001 6:18 pm

Couldn't the fighter win if he had a motherload of invisibility potions and oils of fiery burning?
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Aegis
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Postby Aegis » Mon Jan 01, 2001 6:33 pm

Let's throw a new part into the equation. So far, all points given have been valid, and quite informative. We all know how if a mage is hit during spell casting, it disrupts the spell. Say we give the fighter/paladin a bow that he, say specializes in. In addition, he pulls a lucky first shot, disrupting the first spell casting of the mage. He then has time to get close, and initiate hand-to-hand. Does anyone have a counter point to that?

By the way, we are asuming the battle takes place in one room, no cover or anything. Just keep that in mind.

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Alienbob
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Postby Alienbob » Mon Jan 01, 2001 6:54 pm

i dont use mages much but cant u make a contingency where a spell is cast a soon as an enemy enters your LOS? if so you could put stoneskin in the contingency and that would buy the mage some time. alos once the mage casts a protection from magical weapons spell on himself the fighter/paladin would be screwed.

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XtraniuM
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Postby XtraniuM » Mon Jan 01, 2001 7:45 pm

if the fighter is invisible the mage would just cast true sight

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magusg
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Postby magusg » Mon Jan 01, 2001 8:09 pm

What the hell, I just posted and nothing appeared. Oh well. In a nutshell, what I was going to say was that protection from magical weapons doesn't cover the extra elemental damage most good weapons do. Therefore standing around with just that active is not a good idea for the mage.

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Rail
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Postby Rail » Mon Jan 01, 2001 8:46 pm

Of course, going invisible is better for a mage than just standing around, and it's good for an entire day. Just turn invis. and wait. Only an inquisitor can defeat that. Then again, if the fighter has Book of Infinite Spells turned to true seeing, the mage is in for a surprise. Oh, those vairables again!

[This message has been edited by Rail (edited 01-01-2001).]
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Alienbob
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Postby Alienbob » Mon Jan 01, 2001 8:53 pm

i think that both of these classes r pretty equally balanced. they both have their strengths and weaknesses.

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Rail
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Postby Rail » Mon Jan 01, 2001 8:56 pm

Very true on the elemental damage. However, this isn't going to disrupt most spells of a high level mage. With Robe of Vecna, Amulet of Power, etc., most spell casting times become zero. Disrupting spells becomes a non-factor.
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GrimReaper
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Postby GrimReaper » Mon Jan 01, 2001 8:59 pm

Two words. Spell Sequencer.

Mage would win if he was ready for it.
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Weasel
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Postby Weasel » Mon Jan 01, 2001 9:07 pm

A mage with the Staff of the Magi is invisible because of the staff and I believe it cannot be dispelled. So taking this in account a fighter or paladin would be rolling to hit at a -(I don't know how much).Given this circumstance I believe the mage would win.

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(I would betray the world before i let the world betray me.) Chao Chao 192 a.d.
"Vile and evil, yes. But, That's Weasel" From BS's book, MD 20/20: Fine Wines of Rocky Flop.

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Drakron Du´Dark
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Postby Drakron Du´Dark » Mon Jan 01, 2001 9:17 pm

By the look of things being posted here it will come about the mage type or fighter type equipament and spells.
All points from my point of view are correct, that depending of diferent statagies used in the battle, the end will different.
I like to point out no one says where the cleric type will be, the Brains our the Idiots.

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"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not became a monster... when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss gazes into you..."
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[This message has been edited by Drakron Du´Dark (edited 01-01-2001).]
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