Idiots vs. Brainers

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Aegis
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Idiots vs. Brainers

Postby Aegis » Sun Dec 31, 2000 3:59 pm

I wonder who would win. A Sorceror/mage at the XP Cap, and a good variety of memorized spells. Or a Paladin/Fighter at the XP with some good equipment... Do you suppose it would be up to the PC on who the winner would be? Or do you think that one of the classes would win hands down?
It is kind've interesting if you think about it. The Paladin/Fighter classes are, well, idiots. You gotta admit that it might take time for pain to click in the their, plus they can actually wear armor without restriction.
On the other hand, the Sorceror/Mage classes have a multitude of spells that could be cast, and defensive spells to protect them...
Shall we see what the people think perhaps?

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Vicsun
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Postby Vicsun » Sun Dec 31, 2000 4:03 pm

The fighter. Once when he comes near the mage he won't be able to cast. And be forced to be in a closed battle. However if it was 2 fighters vs. a fighter and a mage it would be something different IMO.
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person. ~Chanak

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Aegis
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Postby Aegis » Sun Dec 31, 2000 4:04 pm

Interesting, any rebuttals?

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Postby Drakron Du´Dark » Sun Dec 31, 2000 4:05 pm

The paladin. If he had Hollier-that-all-the-people-and-powers-(counting-the-overgod-AO)in-the-Planes avenger.

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Lucian
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Postby Lucian » Sun Dec 31, 2000 4:23 pm

what about the figther mage, clad in the bladesinger chain, and having tensers, stoneskin, imp invis, mirror image, imp haste and fireshield in spell triggers and spell equencer.and another stoneskin in a halflife contingency?..and dual wielding celestial fury and black razor..and is at the cap....depending on whom who hits first..when versus a paladin..thinking of carsomyr's ability to dispell magic..elsewhise ill say that a figther mage will cream a norm figther or a sorcererer....and his surviabilty could be improved with getting a spell turning up..or maybe a spell trap from scroll

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Postby XtraniuM » Sun Dec 31, 2000 4:25 pm

the mage would win...

if he got that robe of ...(don't remeber) it slows down the casting time...he could cast a timestop and cast multiple abi-dalzim's horrid wilting, and when the timestop is finished, the fighter/paladin is dead...

well, thats how I see it..feel free to come with other ideas...

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Postby Vicsun » Sun Dec 31, 2000 4:25 pm

I think we're not talking about a FIGHTER\mage. I think it's just a mage. Other wise it'll be brainers (mages) vs. Halv-brainers-halv-ideots (half mages halv fighters) vs. ideots (fighters)

quote "what about the figther mage, clad in the bladesinger chain, and having tensers, stoneskin, imp invis, mirror image, imp haste and fireshield in spell triggers and spell equencer.and another stoneskin in a halflife contingency?..and dual wielding celestial fury and black razor..and is at the cap....depending on whom who hits first..when versus a paladin..thinking of carsomyr's ability to dispell magic..elsewhise ill say that a figther mage will cream a norm figther or a sorcererer....and his surviabilty could be improved with getting a spell turning up..or maybe a spell trap from scroll"

[This message has been edited by Vicsun (edited 12-31-2000).]
Vicsun, I certainly agree with your assertion that you are an unpleasant person. ~Chanak

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Postby Weasel » Sun Dec 31, 2000 4:43 pm

One on one at the cap I would give the mage the advantage and I play as a cavalier.Why because I believe it would come down to who got in the first lick.I've played 3 whole games with the three kits for a paladin and it seems to me the mage on the other side always gets the first shot off.
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Postby Aegis » Sun Dec 31, 2000 6:22 pm

Lot's of good opinions here. Of course, I think it possible for either party to win. Depending on the equipment, speed of the controller. Oh well, this is getting interesting, so lets continue

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Postby mikel » Mon Jan 01, 2001 12:22 am

Beside special abilities from items i would agree with all the other who say that the speed is major key who wins.
Who hits first was pointed out several times.
But what I found astonishing is that people start talking of paladins or chevaliers etc or multiclassed F/MU, this means they talk about opponents which have also magical (or clerical or devine) abilities.

But I would favour a true fighter. Only true fighter can achieve grand mastery with a weapon, and this means also they get a decent bonus on weapon speed. A paladin wielding a two-handed sword has a base inititive of 10 (or lets say 8 when wielding a holy avenger ) reduced by 4 if two proficiency slots on 2handed weapon style are spent. A Grand Master gets in addition another boni on his inititive, reducing his offset to 1. This means that in average he hits much earlier giving the mage no free time to cast spells without interruption.
The mage is forced to have protective spells memorized and to cast them, otherwise he is chopped really fast. Thus he has less spells, and the fighter has really good savings a that level...

The mage has no chance. And I believe that most of the other agree, otherwise they would put up parties without chars like korgan,minsc, keldorn. I don't read many post where people suggest to put the mages to the front rank because these mages can easily win most of the battles against normal groups of opponents Image

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Postby Aegis » Mon Jan 01, 2001 1:02 am

While this is the only appropreate thread to post this in, I decided I would. (Did anyone else get that, or is it lost too all (even me)). Is their any piece of ARMOR, not cloak, helmit or such thing, but armor that does not restrict spell casting. Cause if there is, that would be a good asset for the mage in this "deul" to have.

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Rail
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Postby Rail » Mon Jan 01, 2001 1:15 am

Actually, I think a mage *would* easily win most of the battles against normal groups of opponents. However, it is in the next battle they would run into problems. If a mage could use all their spells in one battle, they are better off than an equal level fighter in that battle. However, the fighter has staying power and would be able to continue on to the next fight, where the mage would need to rest to gain back their attacks (spells).

This, of course, would all depend on the player. What spells they memorize, how they use them, what equipment they wear, etc. Is the mage's first spell dimension door, mislead, time stop, or improved mantle? Is the fighter a grand master of the katana or darts? Does the fighter have a cloak of mirroring or of non-detection? Too many variables. However, in a single battle, players being equal in skill, I think the mage would win 6 out of 10 times.
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Postby Weasel » Mon Jan 01, 2001 1:21 am

Elven chain mail +1.

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Postby Caernarvon » Mon Jan 01, 2001 2:44 am

There's also the awesome Bladesinger chain +4 that you get near the end of the game.

I didn't see this mentioned, so here's something to think about for everyone that said the mage would win: protection from magic scrolls. I'm pretty sure that fighters can cast these if they have high enough intelligence. This would force a mage to go with every protection spell he knows followed by tensors. Unless, of course, you cast the protection from magic on the mage. I think it works provided it gets through the mage's magic resistance, but I admittedly haven't ever tried it Image

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Postby Rail » Mon Jan 01, 2001 3:17 am

Or the mage could simply go invisible and wait for the Prot. from Magic to wear off. This doesn't even take into account summoning spells.

[This message has been edited by Rail (edited 01-01-2001).]
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Postby mikel » Mon Jan 01, 2001 4:39 am

Protection from magic is a protective scroll, it does not hinder you to use magic yourselve. This can be done by another spell (unavailable in the computer game : anti-magic shell)
Improved) Invisibility: Prevent attacks with ranged weapon or with targeting spell. Once a melee opponent sees you (after casting the first spell) he *can* attack you (although he gets a minus on to hit, but the AC of a mage is normally not a problem).

If you have the chance, try all that yourself by some kind of deathmatch : Load a multiplayer game and have a friend join your party, one is playing the mage and the other the fighter. Eihter a prepared deathmatch with fighter equipped for combating a mage and the mage prepared to combat a fighter or you start with the normal spell selection and the ususal items.
We did that (in IWD) and even in this computer game where the mage is more powerful than according the AD&D rules, most of the time the mage lost that combat.

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Postby Ivanhoe » Mon Jan 01, 2001 7:45 am

At this level (XP cap) I reckon it's harder to call. Once you're up at say level 19 then the mage definitely stands better - if you choose the right spells/equipment.

Everyone seems to be ignoring the many magical items that mage's can use not available to a fighter. The robe of Vecna for instance improves casting speed by 4 - most of my main characters spells get off instantaneously. Then there's the wands. Someone mentioned summoning spells/scrolls. Then you forget about Wizard's eye and other spells that will allow the mage advance "intelligence". You assume that the mage and fighter would start off next to each other. Pah.

I've actually role-played (non-computer) a four v four mixed party of demi-god status (around lvl 19 main class) and I can tell you that the magic users whipped the fighters butts.

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mikel
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Postby mikel » Mon Jan 01, 2001 9:10 am

Ivanhoe, just one question:
Did that duel happen under the official rules of AD&D for that lvl which are also used at the Championship GenCon ?
It is *not* just taking the Player's Handbook and extend that to lvl 19

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Postby Chris Boney » Mon Jan 01, 2001 11:14 am

I believe the mage would win most often. Some spells are just to overpowered to leave the fighter many options, like mordekainen's sword, stoneskin (we are talking about high-level characters here (ie. 9 layers of stoneskin))
And on top of that, with all the protections against damage from his own spells (ie. fireprotection) it is just a matter of casting a stationary spell like incendiary cloud combined with invulnerability to fire, and all the mage has to do is walk in circles until the fighter is dead. And if the fighter flees, ranged spells will finish him off (like triple skulls with spell-trigger).
In reply to previous post, I don't think the mage will run out of spells.. there are so many chain and trigger spells which last for days... no.

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Postby Lich_Lord » Mon Jan 01, 2001 11:27 am

well A mage with chain contingency would have the starting advantage- protection from magical weapons, stoneskin, fireshield, lower resistance. Then he/she could summon insects as it drain health from target, cast mislead or invisibility, sanctuary ( as noone xcan attack it. then offencive it could cast power word stun and while the figher is wandering around the mage could hit him with some magic missiles and for finals cast imprisonment.
The figter/paladin could wait until protctive spells wear off( he could hide somewhere) and then smash the mage to pieces with a nice arsenal of weaponry, remember that each character is unique and the fights could go either way

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