Enhanced bard song

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Bruce Lee
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Enhanced bard song

Postby Bruce Lee » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:54 pm

I am only wondering if anyone has solved the "bug" that this song doesn't help summons. I have tried but I wasn't able to.
I cannot figure out how the Skald song works because it benefits summons aswell as party members but within a certain range. Enhanced bard song benefits party members and has no range, but should IMHO also benefit summons.
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:37 am

Originally posted by Bruce Lee
I am only wondering if anyone has solved the "bug" that this song doesn't help summons. I have tried but I wasn't able to.
I cannot figure out how the Skald song works because it benefits summons aswell as party members but within a certain range. Enhanced bard song benefits party members and has no range, but should IMHO also benefit summons.


does skald song benefit party members in a certain range???

i know that both jester, and enhanced bard song has no range, its interesting that the skald song is ranged...

here's another similar bug...one wish spell option is improve haste the entire party, but it don't work on summons...sigh...

just a programming glitch...i suspect all bard songs should be range limited... :rolleyes:
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Postby Littiz » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:44 am

Hmm, I'd like to fix these problems in Refinements, if I get a global picture about how all songs should work. So I could fix them all in a coherent way, including the kit versions of the new HLAs table.

For bards we're using most of the new abilities made by aVENGER (with permission ;) ), but we've already fixed something too.

Would you mind posting some comments at our forum?
The problem is that to target summons that spell is (most likely) using a fake projectile, and that has to have a range, so you can't remove the range problem if you want to include summons.
So it's up to players' preferences.... target party without range, or target all with range?

Another option would be try to create a new projectile (actually this is doable).
But I'd need some more feedback, there could be some balance issues too.
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:11 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
Hmm, I'd like to fix these problems in Refinements, if I get a global picture about how all songs should work. So I could fix them all in a coherent way, including the kit versions of the new HLAs table.

For bards we're using most of the new abilities made by aVENGER (with permission ;) ), but we've already fixed something too.

Would you mind posting some comments at our forum?
The problem is that to target summons that spell is (most likely) using a fake projectile, and that has to have a range, so you can't remove the range problem if you want to include summons.
So it's up to players' preferences.... target party without range, or target all with range?

Another option would be try to create a new projectile (actually this is doable).
But I'd need some more feedback, there could be some balance issues too.


i'd personally say entire party, including summons, no range...but i am a naughty person... :)

i would guess that the intent was everyone, ranged...this will remove the uber naughty cheese about enhanced bard song, but will give you ability to have summons enjoy the benefits of enhanced bard song...a good trade, i would guess...urm...are you planning to tinker with mislead clones singing enhanced bard song??? i hope not..

:p :p :p :p :p
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Postby Bruce Lee » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:05 pm

If it can be fixed it would be great. I have been trying a bit myself but there is simply no option that fits. The target option is either global, global without party, party, self or pre-target. Maybe something could be done with the pre target option. This must be the same for the improved haste from wish.
I think it is reasonable that there should be a range limit. Perhaps if you pick this HLA twice you should be able to increase the range.
I will have to do some testing because I seem to recall it giving benefits to clones. If that is the case, then what is the difference between a clone and a summon or indeed a planetar.
Anyway good luck Littiz!
I think atleast that images and simulacrums should be able to sing, perhaps not clones :cool:
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Postby Bruce Lee » Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:07 pm

Hey Littiz!
I just posted a comment over at your forum. I dont know if that thread is still active. How do the improved bard songs work in the rogue rebalancing mod? Like the enhanced bard song or like the skald song?
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Postby Littiz » Sun Jan 18, 2004 4:43 pm

Actually you have posted in aVENGER's forum :p
No matter, User started a thread in our own forum, and I have already taken an arbitrary decision and fixed the thing :D
Let's try to do some order:

aVENGER's Rogue Rebalancing mod, among the rest, changes the regular Bards' song.
Original one seemed to do nothing, aVENGER's version does, and it also improves with levels, as it was meant to.

Each kit gets its own Bard song, too (Blades get the only one that does NOT improve with levels).
These fixes are ONLY included in aVENGER's mod (Refinements indeed is meant to be used together with it. Even though the two may live separately, our documentation will highly suggest to use them together).
All of these versions use a ranged, allies-including effect, except Jester's one, which affects enemies.

Then aVENGER created new HLAs for bards, a new Enhanced Bard Song, and two other versions for Skalds and Jesters (no enhanced version for Blades!). Enhanced versions are followed by Lingering Songs, which improve the duration of the effects after singing has stopped.
So there are three Enhanced Songs, and three Lingering Songs, for regular bards, Skalds and Jesters.
All of these songs use a simple "TargetParty" effect, again, except Jester's one. I assume aVENGER used this impostation since that was used for the only originally existing Enhanced Bard song.

Refinements was already using those new HLAs, with a few adjustments and rebalancing, and some other changes to the HLAs tables (ex: Skalds get two new, mutually exclusive HLAs: Blunt Weapon Specialization, and Bladed Weapon Specialization).
What I have done now:
I've modified ALL Enhanced Songs and Lingering Songs (except Jesters'...), so that they also use a ranged effect that targets allies.
In a word, if you'll install the Rogue Rebalancing Mod, and then Refinements, you'll finally have a normalized behaviour for all songs.

Of course all of these things must still face beta-testing :D
Further details will be given in Refinements' forum (link in my sig :p )
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Postby Bruce Lee » Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:57 pm

Sounds excellent! So what have you done about the range? WIth the original skald song it was maybe a bit small.
I think I will check it out.
Thanks
Oh and the normal skald song is a little unstable. I mean the effect comes and goes even when you are within range and the skald is singing. Can this be fixed? Sorry if I am asking to much here but I like bards. I think maybe blades got a bit of a bad deal in the rogue rebalancing mod. But they have been good for so long :)
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Postby Littiz » Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:47 am

hhmm..Don't know if I can do anything about that glitch, the way songs' effects are applied seems hard-coded..
I should be able to create that new "projectile", to raise the range.
I have still some doubts about balance though: enhanced songs are very powerful, and if they affect all of your allies, they need some weak point.

Blades are fine this way I think, Enhanced Songs are not for them, since they're not even able to improve the regular one.
With Refinements they get some of the new bard HLAs + Improved Ambidexterity.
If testing proves they have been weakened too much, I can always add Advanced Spins or something :)
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Postby Bruce Lee » Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:48 am

Yeah songs are powerful indeed. Someone over at the other forum posted something clever I think. It might be hard to implement but not all summons and allies should be effected. Spiders for example perhaps shouldn't be inspired. Maybe only beings with high enough intelligence... not sure.
Also I think the song should be interrupted if the bard takes damage. I dont think the bonuses should kick in straight away either, after three rounds of singing perhaps. That should make it more balanced, that and a line of sight range.
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Postby Littiz » Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:24 am

Ok, continuing on the other forum since this is a one to one conversation! :D
Anyway, I can do something about targets, but the I fear I cannot make it interruptable or something like that. The base mechanism of the songs is deeply hard-coded, to my knowledge...
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