Suggestion for spell selection on sorcerer

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lompo
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Suggestion for spell selection on sorcerer

Postby lompo » Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:35 am

I started a sorcerer and I partialy made up my mind on the spell choice, but some doubts remain both on the spell picks and spell order for some levels:
Lev.1: no doubts (Mag.Mis, Chrom. Orb, Spook, Identify and a fifth)
Lev.2: small doubts (Mirr. Im., Blur, Melf acid, Web and one between Invis. and Srinking cloud)
Lev.3: I'm thinking of Skull trap, MMM, Fire arrow, Remove magic and Slow; what do you think and which to pick for last?
Lev.4: I'm thinking of Stoneskin, Great. Mal. and Wiz. Eye for sure, minor sequencer and one between Fireshields and spirit armour, what do you think and which to pick for last?
Lev.5: my picks are breach, sunfire, lower res., spell imm. and Animate dead, what do you think and which to pick for last?
Lev.6: my picks are Chain light., Prot. from mag. weap., true sight, contingency and a fifth (any good suggestion?), what do you think and in which order pick'em (specially the first 3)?
Lev.7: Many doubts, I'm thinking of spell sequencer, Mordy. s., Project image, Ruby ray, limited wish, Finger of death, already too many, any suggestion of wich to exclude and the order of picks (at least first 3)?
Lev.8: small doubts, Abi D.h.w. first, then spell trigger, then P.W. blind and finaly summon fiend, what do you think (Simulacrum and pierce shield?)?
Lev.9: small doubts, Time stop first, then Chain Cont., followed by wish and spell strike, what do you think and which to pick for last?

I'm thinking to play with a six party with at least a mage (Sola) in the group, with Ascension with improved 5s, battle and tactic mod installed; do I need more mage /sorcerer (I can add either Kelsey or Tashia)?

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Postby nephtu » Fri Nov 07, 2003 10:24 am

Hmmm...

I'm just (slowly) running a two sorceror party through (PC + Tashia) - there was a thread about it a while back - Thread Here - if you have a regular mage, it's handy because they can supply the situational spells, but you can always fake them from scrolls. Fwiw, here's my planned spell lineup:

Spell Force Rankings - Two Sorcerors
Party: PC Sorceror, Tashia, VIconia, Minsc (Inquisitor), Jaheira (Ranger/Cleric) Jan (Assassin)

Level 1
Magic Missile
Armor OR Shield
Spook
Chromatic Orb
Identify / Shield

Level 2
Mirror Image
Glitterdust / Web
Blur
Web/Stinking Cloud
(Resist Fear OR St cloud) / Resist Fear

Level 3
Fireball / (skull trap OR Fireball)
Haste / Invis.10'radius
Remove Magic / Slow
Skull trap/ (Fireball OR skull trap OR Rem. Magic)
Melf's MM

Level 4
Stoneskin
Minor Sequencer
Wizard Eye / Teleport Field
Gr. Malison / Em. Hopelessness
Teleport field / Gr. Malison

Level 5
Spell Immunity
Breach / Lower Resist
Lower Resist / Sunfire
Sunfire / (Animate Dead OR Feeblemind )
(Animate Dead OR Chaos OR Feeblemind) / Breach

Level 6
Contingency
Pro MW / Mislead
Mislead / Pro ME
Improved Haste / Pro MW
Pro ME / Improved Haste

Level 7
M Sword / Project Image
Project Image / Mass Invis
DB Fireball / PW Stun
Lim. Wish / DB Fireball
Mass Invis / Ruby Ray

Level 8
Spell Trigger / ADHW
Inc. Cloud / Spell Trigger
ADHW / PW Blind
Symbol Stun / Bigby
(PW Blind OR Bigby) / Symbol Stun (may not get to this level with a full party)

Level 9
Chain Contingency
Timestop / Shapechange
PW Kill / Time stop
Shapechange / Imprisonment
Spellstrike / PW Kill (may not get to this level with a full party)

HLA
Planetar
Greater Alacrity
Dragon's Breath / Energy Blades
Energy Blades / Dragon's Breath
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Postby Xyx » Fri Nov 07, 2003 11:07 am

Completely agree with the low-mid levels, but for 7 and up I'd suggest...

Level 7
Project Image
Spell Sequencer
Mordenkainen's Sword
Limited Wish (will get you many things you can't otherwise replicate)
Mass Invisibility / Power Word Stun

Level 8
Simulacrum
Spell Trigger
Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Maze / Pierce Shield / Power Word Blind (these are nice but only needed for some special battles)
Unlikely that you'll cast much more than the top three, though.

Level 9
Chain Contingency
Time Stop
Imprisonment (most powerful single target killer, but there's not that much worth using it on that isn't immune to it... :rolleyes: )
Spell Trap (if you like having infinite spells :D )
Wish, if you get to choose it.
You'll get a load of level 10 spells at this level, too.

Clones, clones, clones! Unless you think your sorcerer sux0rz and you think one of him is quite enough already. ;)

Sure you could pick all that Incendiary Cloud and Symbols stuff, but you wouldn't ever use them if you knew how superior the alternatives are.
[url="http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/SpellsReference/Main.htm"]Baldur's Gate 2 Spells Reference[/url]: Strategy, tips, tricks, bugs, cheese and corrections to the manual.

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Postby nephtu » Fri Nov 07, 2003 3:28 pm

Eek

I find myself obliged to disagree with the mighty Xyx, oh well, know I know how Martin Luther felt ;)

Level 7 Spell Sequencer is, I think, going to be available (as your second spell) only one level before you can get Spell Trigger, and I really don't think a sorceror should take a spell that'll be only useful for a brief while (unless no better choice is available), so I really think you should live without the sequencer.

ADHW really kicks in for super power when you can stuff 3 in a chain contingency, which is why I placed it after spell trigger.

I didn't put spell trap in because you get it from the staff of the magi :p - and, with a bag of holding, it has infinite charges.

Clones are so amazingly useful, I put them at or near the top of the stack.

Of course, my list is optimized for TWO sorcerors, not one sorceror or sorceror + mage. True sight is handled by the inquisitor & priest of helm abilities. The key theme is to select complementary abilities.
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Postby fable » Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:15 pm

Re: Eek

Originally posted by nephtu
Level 7 Spell Sequencer is, I think, going to be available (as your second spell) only one level before you can get Spell Trigger, and I really don't think a sorceror should take a spell that'll be only useful for a brief while (unless no better choice is available), so I really think you should live without the sequencer.


But it won't be available for just a brief while. You can maintain one active copy of each triggering style spell simultaneously.
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:38 pm

also you're going to NEED ruby ray if you plan on installing tactics mod...and smarmy liches...one of the few ways to outwit protection from magic weapons, spell immunity divination and abjuration and improved invisibility cast by liches...

i disagree with xyx about having simmy when you've got project image...

simmy is a fighting summon, and the easy to get helm of simmy early in the game will allow sola, your main fighter to essentially double his combat effectiveness..

i agree with nephtu about spell sequencer...its not all that useful, being limited to 4th level and below...and you can find several at trademeet, whereas you can't get spell trigger scrolls until you hit chapter 6...stick to the scrolls, and wait for the really good one, spell trigger...which you won't need a scroll for, sorcerors rock....

symbols are pretty fun with solafein, and ring of free action or resist fear, and a triple triggered on self, but not worth it for sorcerors...pword stun is ok, but i prefer pword blind...pword stun is for endless spell exploits, but pword kill works just as well, you just have to wait a long time to get it...

inc cloud is an ok spell if you don't plan on having aerie or jaheira...but firestorm does more damage, and cannot be zone of sweet aired...which makes it perfect for some naughty people in improved battles and tactics mod...

may i also suggest strength spell??? great for avoiding expending strength items until you get to chapter 6, and can be cast on enemy with over 18 strength to weaken them...

avoid pierce shield, it is stopped by spell immunity abjuration, which ruby ray is NOT...lower resistance will do more for you...the bigby hand at level 8 is quite good, unsavable hold can be pretty useful...maze also is a lot of fun, using maze targetted on SELF after unleashing magical hell via chain contingency can get your fragile sorceror out of line of fire while the tanks clean house...

you really don't want fiend spells at all...you can buy scrolls early in the game, and planetars later are much much better...got the incredibly useful dispell on hit ability just like a demon...also, improve haste a planetar, free action them, and have them cast globe of blades and attack for the ultimate summons attack...

:D :D :D
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Postby Xyx » Sat Nov 08, 2003 4:34 am

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly
simmy is a fighting summon, and the easy to get helm of simmy early in the game will allow sola, your main fighter to essentially double his combat effectiveness..
That would leave you with just Project Image, which gives you only two sorcerers. What would be better than two sorcerers? Four sorcerers! Plus this gives you yet another way to use your stacks of Scrolls of Time Stop and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting without expending them, for only one level 8 spell. Plus the Sims are more durable.
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Postby fable » Sat Nov 08, 2003 9:16 am

simmy is a fighting summon, and the easy to get helm of simmy early in the game will allow sola, your main fighter to essentially double his combat effectiveness..

Come to think of it, was that buggy helm ever fixed? I tried using it in the standard patched SoA, and the spell kept failing against any character's magical save. :rolleyes:
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Postby Xyx » Sat Nov 08, 2003 10:40 am

You should install the Baldurdash fixpack. ;)
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:14 pm

Originally posted by Xyx
That would leave you with just Project Image, which gives you only two sorcerers. What would be better than two sorcerers? Four sorcerers! Plus this gives you yet another way to use your stacks of Scrolls of Time Stop and Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting without expending them, for only one level 8 spell. Plus the Sims are more durable.


true, and of course there is the infamous lesser/greater restoration cast on simmys so they can cast at the full level of the original.

you know i've always been an image person, and i don't hardly ever use simmys...just a personal preference...also, i found some new cheese...in the same way that keeping a mislead clone out of the sight range of an enemy casting true sight(it makes the misled spellcaster invulnerable to true sight), if the original is out of the sight range of the enemy with scripted true sight, a image cannot be true sighted unless the original mage/sorc is within the sight range of the caster. use farsight or wiz eye for major spell casting madness...

iompo, images are vulnerable to dispell magic, true sight (can be stopped by spell immunity divination and boots of preservation) death spell and wing buffet.

simmys are vulnerable to death spell and wing buffet(not 100% sure about that)...

however the simmy casts at several lower levels than the original...(acts like a level drained version of the original)

casting lesser or greater restoration on the simmy will allow them to cast at full level of the original...endless spells or wish spell abuse will allow them to regain spells once they are restored...see xyx's guide for details..

and despite descriptions, you can have multiples of both simmys and images, using images to cast simmys and vice versa. for a full description of the multi generational clone madness, see xyx's guide.

nephtu has an excellent point, using two sorcerors allows you to very very very carefully select spells for both, giving them the ability to mutually support each other and cover weaknesses inherent in a single sorceror. all you really need is two sorcerors, aerie/jaheira and a thief...

a party of 4 can absolutely do soa/tob, tactics, battles and ascention...you can add sola to be your only fighter/tank, or take jaheira to be cleric and fighter.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :p
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Postby lompo » Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:56 am

Thanks for the suggestion, you helped to clear my mind, I'll get two sorcerers. Now I have to decide wich one to take between Kelsey and Tashia (never tried any of them), can you give me please any info regarding the two?

Regarding simulacrum you can exploit the same technique of spelltrap: use the helm and bag of holding :D

My party is: Me- elf sorcerer, Jaheira (cleric-ranger), a Half-orc kensai-thief (created), Sola, Kelsey/Tashia (sorry for Imoen) and maybe Korgan (he is a berserker and is fun).

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Postby Ekental » Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:54 pm

These are the spell I think most sorcerors need to have. I've played almost exlusively the Wizzies and Sorcerors since I got MMORPGs and CRPGs. Though there is no real spell list to choose from for MMORPGS... (EQ, FF11)

Note this list is not a "this is my first choice, this is my second choice list," its just a list of what I think are useful spells

Must haves
LVL 1
Spook (Eventually they get a -6 penalty to saves!)
Chromatic orb(Death spell @ lvl 12 if they fail the save)

LVL 2
Melfs Acid Arrow (spell disruption)

LVL 3
Fireball (Killing those kamakaze kobolds that run your way)
Dispel Magic (Dispelling "things" that are cast on your party)
Remove Magic (Dispelling enemy buffs but not your own)
Skull trap (no Dmg cap like fireball)
LVL 4
STONESKIN (Must have)
Greater Malison (Lower Saves by 4, great for the Chromatic Orb death combo)
LVL 5
BREACH (Obviously to breach combat defenses so you fighter can nail the enemy spell caster)
Chaos (Great confusion spell)
Lower Resistance (Eventually if you get ToB everyone and there little dog has magic resistance)
??Cloudkill (Usefull, but I don't exactly list it as a must have, depends on your strategy)

LVL 6
Chain lightening (party friendly area affect, just about the only one)
Pierce magic (Take down enemy spell defenses for spell combos)

LVL 7
Delayed blast fireball (Useful trap)
Mass invisibility (Some tough monsters just don't have a true sight)
Spell Sequencer (Stores spell for you, great for instant kill/defense drop/etc.)
Project image (The spells the image use don't afect the spells you have, so after its over you still have all your spells!)
Khelben's warding Whip (this is an ammendment, it removes 3 spell protections)


LVL 8
Spell Trigger (More Spell storing, great for any situation/ bosses)
Incendiary cloud (One of the best area affect clouds, drop into a room and close the door)
Abi Dazhalims Horrid Wilting (You need this...)
Simulcrum (Ammendment, its great when used with restoration)

LVL 9
Time Stop (Of course)
Chain Contingiency (3 spells...3 horrid wiltings?)
Wish (Instant rest with 18 wisdom)
Planetar (This is really a powerful ally, always is hasted, lots of spells, globe of blades, and you can summon 2 with project image!)

Since it seems the whole world and their grandma seems to disagree with me on simulcrum, I went ahead and added that one in there too. Yeesh sometimes an opinion is a bad thing at forums.

Again these are the spells I feel are VERY important for a sorceror and is suited for all tactics and situations. Note I didn't fill up all the choices you can have, simply I got the important spells down. The rest really depends on what tactics your party uses (Webs not that useful if your party is 5 kenseis and 1 mage)
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Postby Ekental » Mon Nov 10, 2003 1:57 pm

BTW simulcrum sucks...You only get 60% level of your character... Instead project image gives you 100% level of you character (Though admittadely your original can't move) but your image gets ALL the spells your original does and after he expires you still have all your spells - one level 7 spell you used to summon your image

OK since I got nailed for this comment ill go ahead and say that Simulcrum is a fricken magically wonderfilled spell that everyone should use in concert with restoration.

Happy now Nephtu?
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Postby Sytze » Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:27 pm

Check UU's or Xyx's reaction somewhere....

You can restore the spells with (greater) restoration, which makes the simmy just as good, or IMO even better then a project image...
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Postby Ekental » Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:49 pm

Why use greater restoration?
So ok, you can use 2 spells and you get fatigued to make simmie better than project image...
*yay*
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:59 pm

Originally posted by Ekental
Why use greater restoration?
So ok, you can use 2 spells and you get fatigued to make simmie better than project image...
*yay*


well, lesser restoration would indeed work to restore one simmy to full level...

but g restoration would allow you to restore ALL your simmies...

urm...wait, the game engine doesn't allow you to have multiple simmys...right??? sniff...wwwwwwaaaaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!

never fear, xyx is here!!!

having a project image cast simmy allows you to have multiple simmys...ALL of whom can be g restored...

btw...

in your spell selection, you mentioned using skull trap for attacking liches???!!!

liches are immune to 5th level spell and below...skull traps have no affect on them at all...it might spell disrupt them, but nada...

skull trap is a great spell, one of the must haves...its not capped like fireball, and having both magic damage spells and elemental spells are one of the key elements to any offensive sorceror's armaments...(inc cloud and abi dahzims are both must haves)

I'd recommend tashia...i like her a lot , and she is just cool...and her pet, peanut, is immune to timestop... :p :p :p
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Postby Sytze » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:02 pm

Wanna go in that direction dont you??

Ok, here is the disadvantage, you use 1 restoration spell (whow what an investment), but when ure cleric has enough constitution or is at high enough level he doesnt become fatigued

Advantages= Your simmy is more durable, like Xyx said, they cant be dispellen with True Sight, you can still use your own Sorcerer instead of leaving it vulnerable (well, you can "negate"this advantage, by simply preparing urself)
But theres no reason for me to tell this again, just check UU post and Xyx's spellguide, like I've mentioned before ....


Edit: Crap, UU beat me to it *note to self; type faster...*
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Postby nephtu » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:07 pm

Simulacra

Ekental, you're badly mistaken. Simulacra do not suck - but they're mostly useful for melee types (including Solaufein), since they are able to fight, where PIs are spellcasting clones. I rather wonder if you've actually read the entire thread.

You use greater restoration on simulacra because they can then fight as a non-level drained version. Fatigue is not an issue because you can
1) give them Hindo's doom so that, they can restore themselves
2) Use a PI to summon a planetar/deva and have them do it.

Your spell list is just wrong - some examples:
Melf's acid arrow is a worthless spell for a sorceror, because it doesn't scale.
Chromatic orb is a killer (literally) if it sticks, but it never seems to stick in most of BGII - it was incredible in BG1, though
Dispel magic is a poor choice compared to remove for combat, leave dispel to the priests (or, better, inquisitors) - it is absolutely not advisable to learn both.
Cloudkill is unecessary - you have wands for that.
Chain lightning & pierce magic? Surely you jest
DB Fireball as your first level 7 choice? /boggle
yadda yadda yadda

Have you ever actually played a sorceror in BG2? The list you provide suggests not.

Lompo - the powergamer will probably want Tashia, as Kelsey has less-than-stellar stats.
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Postby Ekental » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:08 pm

OOPS sorry about that skull trap thingy then, when I killed my Kangaax I thought I nailed with the skull traps but I guess its Yoshimo's traps that killed it and not my skull traps, doh what a waste of 8 glyphs and 7 skull traps!

BTW I'll take back what I said about simulcrum being crappy and move it to (good) but I still think there are other spells that are more useful.
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:08 pm

oh yeah...since the 9th level spell wish was mentioned...here is a new bit of evil sick and truely nasty bit of cheese...

i've been informed that some tob bosses, like (deleted) and (deleted) that are immune to timestop, are

NOT IMMUNE TO WISH SPELL TIMESTOP!!!

someone told me that using the wish spell timestop, they were able to bombard the eclipse bozos and the (deleted) at the end of tob... :p :p :p

wish spell is even cheesier than chain contingency or project image, or simmy... :D :D :D
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