Suggestion for spell selection on sorcerer

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Littiz
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Postby Littiz » Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:23 am

pierce magic is an abjuration spell, it will be stopped by spell immunity abjuration, which makes using them on smarter mages a no-go...


That's not true, "spell removal spells" like Pierce Magic are an exception.
Dispel Magic is indeed stopped by Spell Immunity: Abjuration, but a simple Secret Word will take that down!
(not for liches since they're immune to that level of spells)

BTW, I think smarter liches are a bit cheesy, but worth a try. Not really a tactical challenge, more a matter of... resistance :D (but, good tactics to survive some rounds are needed :D )
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:20 am

Originally posted by Littiz
That's not true, "spell removal spells" like Pierce Magic are an exception.
Dispel Magic is indeed stopped by Spell Immunity: Abjuration, but a simple Secret Word will take that down!
(not for liches since they're immune to that level of spells)

BTW, I think smarter liches are a bit cheesy, but worth a try. Not really a tactical challenge, more a matter of... resistance :D (but, good tactics to survive some rounds are needed :D )


yeah, but will a pierce magic take down spell immunity abjuration on a lich???

i thought only ruby ray worked on smarter liches since they're using spell immunity abjuration spells...or is pierce magic low enough to be affected by lich immunity???

i do distinctly recall hitting a smarter lich with khelbens warding whip, and it didn't kill the spell immunity...or was i wrong???

I may need to retest smarter liches component... :p
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Postby Xyx » Wed Nov 12, 2003 5:43 am

Ruby Ray and the like sux0r. Why? Because the stuff they remove isn't worth removing (Tactics mods aside). What are you going to throw at an enemy that you need his Spell Turning removed first? Magic Missile? Are you going to waste a round and a level 7 spell (Ruby Ray) just to hit someone with a Magic Missile? Just chuck some area damage spell at them instead, and save your level 7 slots for the stuff that matters.

Melf's Acid Arrow seems like a waste of a Mirror Image or Knock to me. Unless you like having a thief in your party (which I personally don't), in which case it's just a waste of a Mirror Image. If you want fast, cheap damage, why not grab a wand?

And who cares about the level of a Simulacrum? The thing gets your quickslot items! Having another pair of hands to read Time Stop scrolls and summon several Mordenkainen's Swords from another stack of scrolls is worth a level 8 slot, if you ask me.
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Postby Ekental » Wed Nov 12, 2003 10:49 pm

Since lots of liches seem to be immune to elemental dmg and since lots of Area affect spells are elemental dmg... isnt that a reason to use a spell like Ruby ray of reversal??? I never choose it but just wondering hypothetically.
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Thu Nov 13, 2003 12:57 am

actually the only spell protection removal you need in an unmodded game is remove magic and breach...xyx is quite right, you only need those two....

tactics mod uses nested mutually supporting defenses that cover itself with only one exploitable weakness with smarter liches...

and for that using ruby ray and chain contingency is the only way to break thru...

littiz, i destinctly remember testing spell immunity abjuration with khelbens and pierce shield...does not remove spell immunity abjuration...

ekental, a smarter lich will cast

protection from magic weapons
protection from energy (twice on itself, stacking itself...illegal, but completely immune to energy attacks)
improved invisibility
spell immunity divination and abjuration


this makes a smarter lich almost completely invulnerable...an improved invisible target may not be targetted with spells, its protection from energy makes it immune to elemental based area effect spells, and you can't true sight it since its got spell immunity divination... :p :p :p
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Postby Littiz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:25 am

@User: try casting Secret Word on a character (not the same caster) with SI:Abjuration and see.
If Pierce Magic doesn't work on liches (it has no reasons not to work) then it means Weimer made them immune to it (actually I think it's likely, being even a damn easy thing to do :D )
and you can't true sight it since its got spell immunity divination...

This is where Detect Illusions of thieves becomes handy :p

@Xyx: as you know I admire your quest for perfection and efficiency, but you'd end using the same 2 or 3 moves for the whole game, every time you play the game! :D :D :p
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:45 am

Originally posted by Littiz
@User: try casting Secret Word on a character (not the same caster) with SI:Abjuration and see.
If Pierce Magic doesn't work on liches (it has no reasons not to work) then it means Weimer made them immune to it (actually I think it's likely, being even a damn easy thing to do :D )

This is where Detect Illusions of thieves becomes handy :p

@Xyx: as you know I admire your quest for perfection and efficiency, but you'd end using the same 2 or 3 moves for the whole game, every time you play the game! :D :D :p


have you USED pierce magic, pierce shield on a smarmy lich and did it work???

i'm sure i sprayed an improved lich with khelbens via chain contingency, and the true sight didn't work...sigh... :rolleyes:
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Postby lompo » Thu Nov 13, 2003 3:56 am

first, does the cloak of non detection protects an invisible char. from true sight?
It should not, reading the description of the true sight spell, but sometimes when the spell are a property of an item they work a little differently.

Second, Littiz how come the thief's ability detect illusion work on an invisible char protected with spell immunity: div.?

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Postby Xyx » Thu Nov 13, 2003 6:01 am

Originally posted by lompo
first, does the cloak of non detection protects an invisible char. from true sight?
If I'm not mistaken, Non-Detection works only with nonmagical invisibility (from stealth). True Sight will kill magical invisibility (from spells or items) regardless of the cloak.
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Postby lompo » Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:03 am

Originally posted by Xyx
If I'm not mistaken, Non-Detection works only with nonmagical invisibility (from stealth). True Sight will kill magical invisibility (from spells or items) regardless of the cloak.


So a stealthed char. with the cloak should be safe against true sight?

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Postby Littiz » Thu Nov 13, 2003 9:49 am

have you USED pierce magic, pierce shield on a smarmy lich and did it work???

No, I'm taking your word that it doesn't.
If it doesn't work, then it's cheese (maybe built-in), since relatively to the spell system it should work.
Or maybe, they just have a Spell Shield active! :eek:
Which, actually is altered by many mods (all those that use Detectable Spells)
I've discovered that the version used by Detectable Spells is ABSOLUTELY BUGGY, (wrong portrait icon, and mostly, it has unlimited charges!!!)
EDIT: must be a ToB bug. Unpatchable.
Second, Littiz how come the thief's ability detect illusion work on an invisible char protected with spell immunity: div.?

Well, first, it's hardcoded, second it should work anyway since it's "thievish smartness", not magic ;)
Technically if you changed the flags of True Sight and made it schoolless, it should bypass SI: Divination as well.
If I'm not mistaken, Non-Detection works only with nonmagical invisibility (from stealth). True Sight will kill magical invisibility (from spells or items) regardless of the cloak.

With an exception: invisibility gained from the Staff of Magi. Last time I checked at least :D
With both the cloak and the staff, you're really undetectable. A bug, maybe.
So: thieves, and mages with that staff, have a good reason to use the cloak.
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Postby nephtu » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:04 am

More..

Stealth (thief or ranger) plus the cloak will defeat true sight, unless it's the innate type (Dragons, demons, ilithids, liches, etc.) who see through everything.

I've got to try using the staff, that would be cool.
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Postby Xyx » Thu Nov 13, 2003 10:40 am

Dragons and the like don't have True Sight, they just see invisible people. True Sight kills illusions, thereby exposing invisible people but also destroying Mirror Images or Project Images.
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:08 pm

Originally posted by Littiz
No, I'm taking your word that it doesn't.
If it doesn't work, then it's cheese (maybe built-in), since relatively to the spell system it should work.
Or maybe, they just have a Spell Shield active! :eek:
Which, actually is altered by many mods (all those that use Detectable Spells)
I've discovered that the version used by Detectable Spells is ABSOLUTELY BUGGY, (wrong portrait icon, and mostly, it has unlimited charges!!!)
EDIT: must be a ToB bug. Unpatchable.



I'm assuming you're talking about improved battles "detectable spells" component...so spell shield used by those bums has unlimited charges??? not that it matters...a triple strike by chain contingency, which can hit improved invisible enemies will still take it down...

i'm aware wes likes spell shield...that's why i typically use triple ruby ray to get rid of smarmy lich spell immunities...

neph, if you place a mislead clone out of sight of the enemy casting true sight, since the clone is out of sight range of the true sight, it can't dispell the mislead of the mage...bug in the game engine...unfixable...

i've also been told that a caster attacking via project image, where the original is out of sight of the enemy casting true sight is also undispellable by true sight...dispell and death spell of course still works...but an image attacking, guided in by farsight or wiz eye cannot be killed by true sight if the spell casting original is far away from the enemy...must test soon.

and of course the infamous spell immunity divination always works...

:p :p :p

btw...so does boots of preservation in tactics mod... :) ;)

oh hey guys, xyx and littiz....

here is a truely evil bit of cheese i was going to test soon...as soon as i can drag myself away from sid meier's alpha centauri that is...

the wish spell timestop will freeze timestop immune enemies!!!!!!!

i've been told that it works on demo, mel and other really naughty timestop immune creatures... ;) ;) ;)

which makes sense, since the .spl file is completely different...

i am now nominating wish as the cheesiest spell ever, even worse than chain contingency...
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Postby nephtu » Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:30 pm

Ok

Originally posted by Xyx
Dragons and the like don't have True Sight, they just see invisible people. True Sight kills illusions, thereby exposing invisible people but also destroying Mirror Images or Project Images.


Point taken, I stand corrected.
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Postby Ekental » Fri Nov 14, 2003 12:19 am

Originally posted by UserUnfriendly

ekental, a smarter lich will cast

protection from magic weapons
protection from energy (twice on itself, stacking itself...illegal, but completely immune to energy attacks)
improved invisibility
spell immunity divination and abjuration


this makes a smarter lich almost completely invulnerable...an improved invisible target may not be targetted with spells, its protection from energy makes it immune to elemental based area effect spells, and you can't true sight it since its got spell immunity divination... :p :p :p


OK... well in that case ill wait a bit before I dl that mod..
BTW I though protection from magical energy protected you 100% from energy... cause it seems to work with my characters, regardless of what the spell description says
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Postby UserUnfriendly » Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:47 am

Originally posted by Ekental
OK... well in that case ill wait a bit before I dl that mod..
BTW I though protection from magical energy protected you 100% from energy... cause it seems to work with my characters, regardless of what the spell description says


well, tactics be a naughty evil nasty bugger of a mod...i like it, of course...i even wrote many sections on my cheese guide on battling specific encounters in tactics...

energy will only protect 75%...you probably had some sort of protection item equipped when you had that energy attack, like the ring of fire resistance, or the cloak of reflections....and most likely most of your chars have helms of defense, right??? the helm gives you elemental resistance....
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Postby Ekental » Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:32 pm

err... no I tried it with just nothing but starting clothing etc. and It said 100...not my main character either I tink it was minsc
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