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An overlooked dual-class

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 3:26 am
by Rodo
I recently tried out a REALLY nice new dual class: Mage (I used an invoker) 8 - Thief.
The thief reaches level 23 (max for a thief under the xp cap) and has mage spells up to level 4. You get tons of thieving points and therefore you can handle the loss of thieving points when wearing elven chain.
For this person, I rolled some REALLY good stats (STR-17, DEX-18, CON-18, INT-15, WIS-15, CHA-10) so I got maximum HP bonus, thac0 bonus and lore bonus (from the wisdom).
The only problem with this class is that hit points are a problem (mage's hit dice). This can be slightly rectified with a familiar but you only get a little over a 100 hit points (with max hit die rolls). There's always Vampiric Touch and Tensor's Transformation.

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:07 am
by Astafas
What so good about a Mage(8)/Thief? I for one would certainly prefer a Thief(any kit or none)/Mage.

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:12 am
by Astafas
According to my spell progression table, a level 8 wizard won't get any 6th level spells, thereby not being able to cast Tenser's. He won't even get any 5th level spells.

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 4:34 am
by Classic
Well, if you like to play a thief packing a few mage spells is always a nice thing, especially if you don´t sacrifice anything. However, since you can´t choose a kit for your thief you ARE sacrificing both additional powers and depth of character. Everyone should just make their own minds if the losses are worth it.

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 8:28 am
by Bruce Lee
I always found it quite useful to dual from a mage. However I usually dual at level 2. This way I don't lose any hps and I can still cast spells from scrolls and I get to use amulet of power and staff of the magi and wands.
Not very useful in ToB though since with a thief you get Use Any Item.
I can see the usefulness of what you are suggesting though. When you move in for the backstab you can have stoneskin up and then escape with an invisibility spell.

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 8:39 am
by Rodo
I chose this thing because of:
A) I like spells.
B) I want freedom in my weapon selection (hence not choosing a cleric).
C) I wanted a thief PC that was different from the norm.
D) I didn't want an uber all-powerful character.
E) I wanted the high level thief abilities (if and/or when I get tob), leaving the mage abilities to worthy NPCs (Edwin comes to mind...)


*About Tensor's, there is such a thing as a scroll.

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 9:03 am
by Astafas
Originally posted by Rodo:
<STRONG>
*About Tensor's, there is such a thing as a scroll.</STRONG>


Oh my, I had no idea of that... ;) But are there really that many of them?

I think it makes more sense to start as a thief, raise the thief skills you need, and then dual to a mage. Both Assassins and Swashbucklers make for excellent duals. I do confess that your PC, even if you get no thief kit, is original, though.

As to your stats, you know that there is no difference in HPs between 16 and 18 (for a Thief/Mage)?

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 11:52 am
by Xyx
Originally posted by Rodo:
<STRONG>A) I like spells.
B) I want freedom in my weapon selection (hence not choosing a cleric).
C) I wanted a thief PC that was different from the norm.
D) I didn't want an uber all-powerful character.
E) I wanted the high level thief abilities (if and/or when I get tob), leaving the mage abilities to worthy NPCs (Edwin comes to mind...)</STRONG>


A, B & E: I think you'd be better served with a Thief-Mage dual or Multi.

C & D: Indeed.

Originally posted by Rodo:
<STRONG>About Tensor's, there is such a thing as a scroll.</STRONG>


Yes, but how many? I saved each and every one I found and ended up with about 4 (never used them...). Still, you won't really need many, so perhaps you'll get by with that.

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 7:05 pm
by General
What's this about so few tensor's? I swear, I've sold 6 or 7 off already and I haven't even hit chapter 3

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 7:20 pm
by Gomez
Since I have ToB installed, I'm trying many dual class combinations with Thief, particularly those kits with armor or weapon restrictions so I can take advantage of the Use Any Item ability

IMO, the Use Any Item is the best of all high-level abilities!

I already have my Kensai 25/Thief 27. Now I'm trying Assassin 25/Fighter 26, and other combinations like Shapeshifter/Thief, Barbarian/Thief, etc.

Too bad you can't dual a monk! :cool:

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 8:05 pm
by Bruce Lee
I didn't think druids could dual to thief. Or that Barbarians can dual at all. Can they?

Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2001 11:48 pm
by Rodo
No, they can't.

About the amount of scrolls, that is truly completely random. I for one, found a scroll of Horrid Wilting and a scroll of Spell Trap in chapter 2 (same game too, in the graveyard).

About the constitution thing, I put in extra so I wouldn't be affected by the "sacrifice" in the asylum dream. Perhaps I should have invested some more of my constitution or strength into wisdom for the lore bonus, but I checked I got up to 77 lore within the experience cap (and I can always wield Balduran's Sword for 10 popints more).

About the multi-class being better, I say that no multi-class can get up to level 23 thief under the SoA experience cap.

Besides, I like the invoker class. I never dominate/confuse/greater maliason. The only enchantment spell I think I ever used is "Magical Weapon" to make +3 weapons.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 12:15 am
by Xyx
Originally posted by Rodo:
<STRONG>About the multi-class being better, I say that no multi-class can get up to level 23 thief under the SoA experience cap.</STRONG>


What's so special about level 23? If it has to do with high level abilities, don't worry; multis get them as soon as they get to 3 mil XP.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:34 am
by Astafas
Originally posted by Rodo:
<STRONG>
Besides, I like the invoker class. I never dominate/confuse/greater maliason. The only enchantment spell I think I ever used is "Magical Weapon" to make +3 weapons.</STRONG>


Chaos is a great spell, if ever there was one. Magical Weapon on the other hand is completely useless, as you normally have +3 weapons by the time you can throw the spell.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:42 am
by Astafas
Originally posted by Gomez:
<STRONG>I already have my Kensai 25/Thief 27. Now I'm trying Assassin 25/Fighter 26</STRONG>


Haven't you ever tried to dual a bit earlier? You're not really taking advantage of the dualing as you regain your first class only in the end of the game.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:57 am
by Rodo
@Xyx - Sure, but I want a powerful thief (this is my dirst thief PC)

@Astafas - There are no +3 maces and only one +3 longsword until you get Skullcrusher +3 and Equalizer/Blackrazor/Drow Longsword, respectively.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 4:43 am
by Astafas
Originally posted by Rodo:
<STRONG>There are no +3 maces and only one +3 longsword until you get Skullcrusher +3 and Equalizer/Blackrazor/Drow Longsword, respectively.</STRONG>


I give you right for the maces. I never use them myself, with the exception of Mace of Disruption against undead every now and then. As to the longswords, I beg to differ:

You've got Blade of Roses +3, available at Copper Coronet (also gives a +2 to CHA). Then there is Daystar, which gives a +4 against evil creatures (it doesn't count as a +4 weapon when determining what it can hit, though). Most ennemies in BG2 are evil so this is a winner. Finally, there is Flame Tongue who gives a +3 against cold/fire creatures and a +4 against undead, thereby hitting even Kangaxx.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 7:17 am
by Rodo
Flame Tongue can harm Kangaxx?!?!

If so, defeating him is even easier than I thought.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:56 am
by Xyx
Astafas, did you really manage to hit Kangaxx with Flametongue? I thought it counts as only +1 when determining what it can hit. All weapons with variable enchantment levels seem to use only their "base" level when determining what they can hit.

Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2001 11:18 am
by Astafas
Originally posted by Xyx:
<STRONG>Astafas, did you really manage to hit Kangaxx with Flametongue? I thought it counts as only +1 when determining what it can hit. All weapons with variable enchantment levels seem to use only their "base" level when determining what they can hit.</STRONG>


I've killed him many times with this very weapon as you can get it for free early in the game. What you say about base level might very well be the truth for other weapons but not for Flametongue. Makes it great for vampires, too - love to dual wield it with Daystar.