Rogue relying on Strength?

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Rogue relying on Strength?

Postby Astafas » Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:38 am

I once read a character build discribing a Rogue relying on high Strength rather than Dexterity. The main advantage would of course be the damage bonus when backstabbing. However, I can't find the page anymore. I believe I read it on a Bioware page, presumably for Neverwinter Nights 1, but am not totally sure. Anyone able to help?
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Postby Lucita » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:24 pm

A rogue built on high strength is rather stupid. The damage bonus isn't that high to justify a high strength ( a fighter/rogue multiclass is another matter ).

A rogue allways needs high Dex cause of most of his skills and Armor Class, as he isn't wearing heavy armor.

The rogue's damage bonus from Sneak attacks are usually high enough anyway. Each time you get the bonus it increases by 1D6.
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Postby Tricky » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:30 pm

That makes some sense. One objection I can think of is the loss in sneak. Dex is its governing attribute, right?
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Postby Astafas » Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:37 pm

Lucita wrote:A rogue built on high strength is rather stupid. The damage bonus isn't that high to justify a high strength ( a fighter/rogue multiclass is another matter ).

A rogue allways needs high Dex cause of most of his skills and Armor Class, as he isn't wearing heavy armor.

The rogue's damage bonus from Sneak attacks are usually high enough anyway. Each time you get the bonus it increases by 1D6.


Well yes, I know all that. But when you've played the standard Rogue or Ranger/Rogue ten times or so, you get to a point where it would be interesting to try something slightly different. And I for one had huge problems with my Ranger/Rogue, even though hitting every time thanks to Weapon Finesse and light weapons, not making enough damage to pass through the ennemies DR by the end of NWN1. Aribeth for one was almost impossible to kill (finally managed to keep away with potions of Haste and shooting magic arrows).
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Postby Lucita » Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:54 pm

:D Well...if you want to make it hard for yourself...that's another thing...LOL
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Postby fable » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:09 pm

If Astafas wants to do an interesting and different type of PC, with more of a strategic challenge, that's his business. If you want to call it stupid or anything else, do so out loud to the screen, not here, because, newsflash--it doesn't answer his question.

Let's stay on topic.
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Postby Astafas » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:28 pm

I got it, I got it! Have a look at the [url="http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_devastatingrogue.html"]Devastating Rogue[/url] over at the official Bioware pages.
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Postby Magrus » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:49 pm

If you wanted to deal with a rogue that focuses on high strength, it will be hard to do. However, not impossible. If you sacrificed a high Intelligence for high Strength, you would have less skills, but you could have more of a combat presence. I just may do that myself eventually.
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Postby Fiberfar » Thu Nov 09, 2006 3:50 pm

Astafas wrote:I got it, I got it! Have a look at the [url="http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_devastatingrogue.html"]Devastating Rogue[/url] over at the official Bioware pages.


Isn't the level cap in NwN 2 level 20?
Neither level 40 or devastating critical hit will be available if the cap is 20.
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Postby swcarter » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:02 pm

Astafas wrote:I got it, I got it! Have a look at the [url="http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_devastatingrogue.html"]Devastating Rogue[/url] over at the official Bioware pages.


This is basically what I played, right down to the dual-wielding kukris. The build is a rogue / fighter, and so focusing on strength is a fine idea.

But note that the manual seems to be incorrect when it comes to some feat requirements. Two-weapon fighting requires 15 dex, and improved two-weapon fighting might require 17 dex (I never got my dex high enough to find out).

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Postby Magrus » Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:24 pm

Just a thought....

I know this was about a strength based rogue, however it seems as if it has been done before. If you are looking for something new, why not try mixing the warlock and rogue classes? I did that and I was tearing through whatever I came across. Picking the Hideous Blow eldritch blast "shape" as your invocation allows you to charge your melee blows with magical power. Rather than going fighter/rogue, you can try that instead. You wouldn't need a high Cha either, as there is no save to avoid that and Cha only affects the saving throw DC for your blast effects and invocations as a Warlock.

That mix would allow you to affect creatures like undead who are immune to criticals and sneak attacks, but not to magic. Allowing you to charge your weapon with magic power, sneak up and hit them from behind. Even if you do not deal sneak attack damage, you can still deal Xd6 extra magic damage with your melee weapon when you do that. You get 1d6 for every 2 levels with your blast, just like with sneak attack.
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Postby Astafas » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:25 pm

Magrus wrote:I know this was about a strength based rogue, however it seems as if it has been done before. If you are looking for something new, why not try mixing the warlock and rogue classes? I did that and I was tearing through whatever I came across. Picking the Hideous Blow eldritch blast "shape" as your invocation allows you to charge your melee blows with magical power. Rather than going fighter/rogue, you can try that instead. You wouldn't need a high Cha either, as there is no save to avoid that and Cha only affects the saving throw DC for your blast effects and invocations as a Warlock.

That mix would allow you to affect creatures like undead who are immune to criticals and sneak attacks, but not to magic. Allowing you to charge your weapon with magic power, sneak up and hit them from behind. Even if you do not deal sneak attack damage, you can still deal Xd6 extra magic damage with your melee weapon when you do that. You get 1d6 for every 2 levels with your blast, just like with sneak attack.


New for me will be just fine. And apparently the warlock and rogue classes have been mixed before ("I did that and..."), so by your own definition it couldn't possibly be called new. :D
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Postby Magrus » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:39 pm

:laugh: I was under the assumption you had done the strength based rogue before in the original NWN. If not, well then have fun with that! However as mentioned, you lose out on the majority of the benefits that are put forward under that build being limited to a 20 level build. You may want to rethink it as that is specifically tailored to be god-like at 40th not at 20th.
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Postby Astafas » Thu Nov 09, 2006 5:41 pm

It's correct that NWN2 only goes to level 20, so I have to make my own version of it. I chose the starting stats 16, 16, 14, 14, 8, 8 and plan to continue raising the Str all through the game.

The low Wis has been compensated by the feats Strong Soul and Iron Will. I chose playing as a Human in order to get an extra feat and extra skill points. The alternativ would have been a Wood Elf, I guess.

With a Cha of 8, Bluff and Diplomacy won't be among my stronger skills. I'll therefor use Intimidate all the way and took the Bully feat as background.

I have also taken a Fighter level and will take a few more later on (you gotta love those extra feats and HPs).

(Improved Two-Weapon Fighting only requires Dex 15 while the Improved Defense requires 17.)
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Postby Sardoniks » Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:59 am

So Astafas, how did this build go? I also did the Devastating Rogue back in NWN1 and had a good time with it, but in the absence of the Devastating Critical I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of the build.

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Postby Claudius » Wed Apr 23, 2008 10:22 am

The point of a strength rogue is to multiclass and use other classes that benefit from strength. The main one is fighter which is the ticket to high AB. In MoTB dex rogues are generally better with the intro of PTWF and Epic Dodge. Before MoTB in the OC strength rogues were actually a little bit better. More versatile against sneak immunes and not dependent on UMD to fight sneak immunes (again MoTB now theres epic precision). I designed a strengther in MoTB for roleplaying fun. Kind of a Conan style thief.

Smash 'Em Rogue (Fighter 12/Rogue 2/Assassin 8/FB 8)
Race:
Alignment: Non Lawful Evil
OC 1-30
God: No god

Advantages

4d6 Death Attack 1d6 sneak 3/2/2 attacks during frenzy so 3 DAs in first segment
Frenzy and Supreme Cleave
Full Stealth and HIPs
Rogue Lock and Traps Handling
Decent (but not tops) AB via fighter
Damage Sneak Immunes via Enhanced/Improved Power attack + Epic Weapon Specialization

Disadvantages

Frenzy is not so great with the +12 cap to str boosts (does stack with bulls strength/belt)
Not greatest saves
AC could be better
Missing some useful skills but you can drop the lock/traps and get em ;)

Base Attributes
STR 18 (option 18 int 16 str 14 con = -1 AB/damage, +30 HP fort save, 1 more skill and 1 DC death attack)
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 6

Final Level Distribution
Rogue 3
Fighter 14
Assassin 8
Frenzied Berserker 5 (take 2 more level of fighter for more epic feats 1 more rogue for sills + sneak attack and lose great frenzy)

Attribute Bonuses
4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28 increase STR

Leveling Guide and Feat Distribution
Level 1: Rogue 1: Bully, Able Learner
Level 2: Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (Scimitar)*, {Tower Shield}
Level 3: Fighter 2: Power Attack, Cleave*
Level 4: Fighter 3
Level 5: Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)*
Level 6: Assassin 1: Blindfight, {Use Poison}
Level 7: Assassin 2: {Uncanny Dodge, Ghostly Visage, Poison Save I}
Level 8: Assassin 3
Level 9: Assassin 4: Great Cleave, {Poison Save II}
Level 10: FB 1: {Toughness, Frenzy}
Level 11: Assassin 5: {Improved Uncanny Dodge, Darkness}
Level 12: Assassin 6: Extra Rage, {Poison Save III}
Level 13: Assassin 7: {Invisibility}
Level 14: Assassin 8: {HIPS, Poison Save IV}
Level 15: FB 2: Extended Rage, {Supreme Cleave}
Level 16: FB 3: {Frenzy 2}
Level 17: FB 4: {Deathless Frenzy}
Level 18: FB 5: Improved Power Attack, {Frenzy 3, Enhanced Power Attack}
Level 19: Rogue 2: {Evasion}
Level 20: Fighter 5
Level 21: Fighter 6: Epic Prowess*, Expose Weakness
Level 22: Fighter 7
Level 23: Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)*, Great Strength 1
Level 24: Fighter 9
Level 25: Fighter 10: Epic Weapon Focus (Scimitar)*, Great Strength 2
Level 26: Fighter 11
Level 27: Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)*, GS 3
Level 28: Fighter 13:
Level 29: Fighter 14: Epic Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)*, armor skin
Level 30: Rogue 3


Final Attributes
STR 28 or 26
DEX 16
CON 12 or 14
INT 16 or 18
WIS 8
CHA 6

BAB 27

40/35/30/25/20/15 (mundane scimitar) [based on 26 str...my preference is more skills]

* +7 scimitar with elemental, keen, holy, whatever
* +8 str belt for another 4 AB
* frenzy if no access to str belt for 1 extra attack, +10 str, and damage to him each round (6)

Damage (presenting mundane stats) crit 17-20 x2

1d6 + 14 scimitar and shield
1d6 + 18 scimitar
1d6 + 19 scimitar and shield PA
1d6 + 28 scimitar PA
1d6 + 24 scimitar and shield IPA
1d6 + 38 scimitar IPA

*+7 scimitar with keen, element, holy, whatever
* +8 str belt
* total +12 str while frenzying (or 10 if no belt/bulls)
* additional damage due to death- (4d6) and sneak- (1d6) attacks: avg damage 17.5 per hit

AC 15 naked
18 studded leather
19 studded leather and small shield
20 mithril breastplate
22 mithril breastplate and mithril heavy shield

Other potential bonuses: +7 dodge boots (if available to class), +7 deflection ring, +8 dex for a bonus of 2 AC wearing mithril breastplate, +7 armor, +7 nat ammy, +7 shield

Top AC (with all that): 59

Also a HIPster if in a mess.


Final Saves
Fortitude 18
Reflex 17
Will 7
+1 from Spellcraft Vs Spells

Hitpoints: 366

Skillpoints: 211 (* 33 more skillpoints if you take int 18)

Disable Device 33, Hide 33, Move Silently 33, Open Lock 33, Spellcraft 5, Search 33, Spot 21, Set Trap 4, Tumble 10, Use Magic Device 4

Skillpoint Distribution
Level 1: Dd 4, Hi 4, Ms 4, Ol 4, Sc 2[xclass], Se 4, Sp 4, St 4, Tu 4, UMD 4, save 4
Level 2: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sp 1, Tu 1, save 2
Level 3: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sp 1, Tu 1
Level 4: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 5: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 6: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Tu 2
Level 7: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Tu 2
Level 8: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sc 2
Level 9: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sc 1, Sp 1
Level 10: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 11: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sp 2
Level 12: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sp 2
Level 13: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sp 2
Level 14: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sp 2
Level 15: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 16: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 17: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 18: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 19: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1, Sp 6
Level 20: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 21: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 22: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 23: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 24: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 25: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 26: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 27: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 28: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 29: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
Level 30: Dd 1, Hi 1, Ms 1, Ol 1, Se 1
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Postby bushwhacker2k » Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:08 pm

fable wrote:If Astafas wants to do an interesting and different type of PC, with more of a strategic challenge, that's his business. If you want to call it stupid or anything else, do so out loud to the screen, not here, because, newsflash--it doesn't answer his question.

Let's stay on topic.


Just wanna thank you, fable... ticks me off when people post just for the sake of burnage.

Anyways - Strength Rogues are manageable, their main disadvantage is their lack of dex skill bonuses. Strength rogues are good if you want to use a weapon that isn't included in the finesse feat.
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