Party creation

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Fonteles
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Party creation

Postby Fonteles » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:32 pm

Hello all.

I never play a ad&d rpg before, and im trying the Icewind Dae series for now.

My question is how im gonna create a nice equilibrated party.

What can you tell me about a:

1)Figther/Tank - must not be a pure heroic palladin

2) Fighter/Thief to be my backstabber assasin. I will go hardcore on stealth

3) Archer/ Bard. Elf.

4)Fighter/Mage. Weapon Especialization in daggers and maybe slings. Woman

5) Fighter/Cleric to run with a cool mace.

6) Fighter/Druid. Woman.

And what is your planes to make a biography to your characters?

Tks, and sorry about my english, i guess.

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Bluestorm
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Postby Bluestorm » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:05 pm

Hi there and welcome...
ok this is just my take on it...if you have never played AD@D before then i would go with 3 fighters, 1 mage, 1 cleric and a thief....i know pretty boring, But it works.
Im sure there are others here who can give you a better brake down..but for 1st time keep it simple
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Fonteles
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Postby Fonteles » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:33 pm

Tks for the reply mate.

Dont you think that i need to have a Fighter/Bard to talk with the NPCs?

And dont you think that a archer/thief could be a possibility?

1)Pure Tanker.

2) Bard/Fighter to play with 2 swords.

3) Another Tanker.

4) Pure cleric.

5) Pure Mage, w/o specialization

6) Archer/Thief with the pickpocket thing or a mix of the 4 possibilities? I guess i dont need the open lock special because i remember reading in somewhere that the mage or the brute warrior can open the locks too.

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Bluestorm
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Postby Bluestorm » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:08 pm

Well not sure if you know but with icewind dale 1 and 2 are quite different in the rules, when you start no 2 you have to create a new level one party anyway... there is no 2 weapon fighting in the first one(maybe a mod out there).
Also the paladin will work (he takes all the money in the first game) I just trying to keep it simple for your first time playing... what i would do is give every one some kind of ranged weapon, make at least 1 fighter using 2 handed weapon and bow/thief bow and the rest slings.
for the thief i never used "pick pocket" but all the rest i bring up together
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Fonteles
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Postby Fonteles » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:35 pm

Hmmm i didnt knew that.

Ok. I ll take your advice and I will try to make it simple.

1)Dwarf Tanker.

2)Palladin - Diplomat.

3)Pure Warrior.

4) Pure Cleric.

5)Pure Mage.

6) Archer/Thief Elf.

Nothing fancy.

Ill practice IWD with the objective to play later the BG and Planescape games.

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GawainBS
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Postby GawainBS » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:42 am

First off, especially if this is your first time with the game: take the time to roll good stats and tweak them. This means that all the warriors (Fighters and their multi/dual classes, Rangers & Paladins) start with at least 18/51+ STR, DEX 18, CON 18. All other characters get 18 DEX & 16 CON + 18 STR if you plan on having them in melee. This ensures maximum Armour Class and HP and best to hit with ranged weapons and melee.
Clerics & Druids add an 18 WIS to this, Bards & Wizards an 18 INT.
Keep in mind that some races have racial modifiers to stats.
It's nice to have someone with 18 CHA (for early buying/selling).
Having a Bard, a Druid or Ranger and a Cleric or Paladin ensures that you can finish all (early game) quests. That one extra level can be VERY nice in the beginning. Moreover, none of those are poor choices.
A mix of 3 melee characters and 3 ranged characters works best, IMO. Early game, I'd even go 2/4.

My suggestion would be:

1. Paladin, Human (Longswords & Throwing Axes)
2. Cleric/Ranger, Half-Elf (Maces & Slings)
3. Fighter/Thief, Dwarf (Short Swords & (Throwing) Daggers)
4. Bard, Half-Elf (Longbows & Spears)
5. Fighter 7, dualled to Druid, Human (Slings & Daggers/Scimitars/Clubs)
6. Fighter 3, dualled to Mage, Human (Longbows & Twohanded Swords)

Things to keep in mind:
  • 2. Can pretty much take any other weapon allowed. Don't use a shield: Rangers who don't equip a shield get an extra attack.
  • 5. needs to start with 18 WIS & 17 CHA to be able to dualclass.
  • 6. needs to start with 18 INT, same reason.
  • Everybody has a ranged weapon.
  • In case of Fighters, the weapon listed first is the one I suggest putting all your points in.)
  • If you've got Heart of Winter, enable Sneak Attack: much more reliable than backstabbing. (I've made a succesful backstab perhaps 5 times in ALL of my Infinity Game playthroughs...) That also works with non-Thief weapons. (i.e. your Dwarf could use axes.)
Any questions, feel free to ask.

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Fonteles
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Postby Fonteles » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:32 am

Gawain, I read somewhere that when the moment to build a cleric (or a druid, a mage and a bard) we have to keep in mind that is better to start him as a figther or ranger and only later dual or multiclass him to a cleric. Do you agree with this statement?

Why everybody need a ranged weapon?(I liked the idea)

Tks in advance.

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Postby GawainBS » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:17 pm

You can not dualclass to a Bard.
It's better to start as a Fighter, because Fighters get their main benefits early on, while casters (Cleric, Mage, Druid) keep on getting more & better spells. After dualclassing the first class stops gaining XP.

Example:
Start as a Cleric, dualclass to Fighter at lvl 9, CON 16 (max benefit for non-Warrior):
STR = max 18, because not a Warrior. (= +1 to hit & +2 damage)
You have 9*8 + 2*9 HP = 90 HP
THAC0= 14
One star max. in a weapon.
Access to lvl 5 spells, never better.
Once your Fighter lvls surpasses Cleric levels, you can cast spells again (but not improve them) and your THAC0 keeps improving, you get more attacks and more weapon proficiencies. (See below)

Now, in reverse:
Start as Fighter, dualclass to Cleric at lvl 9, CON 18:
STR = Can be as high as 18/00 (= +3 to hit & +6 damage) (18/51+ is more likely, that's still +2 to hit & +3 damage)
HP = 9*10 + 9*4 = 126 HP
THAC0=10
Max 5 stars in a weapon = +3 to hit, +5 damage, +1 attacks.
For being Fighter lvl 7 + = + 1/2 Attack
Once your Cleric levels surpass Fighter lvls (And Cleric needs less XP, so it will happen sooner than above), you get ALL of the benefits above AND you can cast lvl 5 spells, which go on to lvl 6 & 7.

Due to the nature of the XP curve, it's almost as if you get the benefits of the first 9 Fighter levels for the cost of 1 high level Cleric level, on top of your regular Cleric levels.

Did this make sense? ;-)

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Postby Bluestorm » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:00 pm

Hi there Fonteles, hope you are getting somewhere the game...one thing i would like to add is i like the party that Gawain has given you to try out... now all i would like to say if this is your first ever time playing D@D i would keep it simpler to play the game, Know quit a few people who have given up on these games just because they would start with multi class (not getting high enough levels) not dueling at the right time.
Now don't get me wrong the party classes i gave to you will beat the game, but not as fun.. :)
But the party that Gawin has set out for you, follow his info and you will beat it and have more fun doing it... just need abit more managing.

about all having ranged weapon...my take on it is sometimes its better to fire at the enemy before you go hand to hand.
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Postby GawainBS » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:46 pm

Yes, especially early game, ranged weapons are king: bows get two attacks a round, and most characters have higher to hit bonuses when using DEX. The distance between you and your opponent works wonders as well. ;) Just have two meatshields.
Later on, as you get higher bonuses to damage in melee (proficiencies, STR, weapons,...), I'd shift one extra character to the front lines.

It might seem daunting at first, but take a good look at all the tables in the back of the manual: understandings the various statistics is key to getting the most out of the IE games, especially IWD with its (over)load of combat.

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Fonteles
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Postby Fonteles » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:43 am

Thanks very much folks.

I didnt start a game yet. I will read the manuals now, and later some stories of the forgotten realms lore to understand the vibe of this world. This will help me to improve my poor english too.

Later I will post the inevitable questions that will apear about the customisation of the caracters.

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Postby GawainBS » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:55 pm

Customisation of the characters? What's there to know that we haven't talked about yet? Or do you mean the technical aspect of installing custom portraits & soundsets?

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Postby Endugu » Thu Oct 17, 2013 5:11 am

I agree with Bluestorm: GawainBS' advice is great and they obviously know what they're talking about - but if you're playing this game for the first time, I'd really advice not to play with dual-class characters.
Save those for a later playthrough! :)

Reasons are that it can be fairly annoying to roll the right (high) stats for a character to even be able to dualclass. Also, the ability to "switch roles" properly depends a lot on the player's knowledge. Knowledge that probably won't be yours if it's your first session of Icewind Dale.
I'm referring here both to the mechanics of the game (i.e. dual-classing at what level bring which benefits?) but also to knowing the game's areas and encounters.
The latter should be kept in mind if one's about to "temporarily retire" a class. Or in other words, dual-classing your fighter to a mage (e.g. turning him from a level 9 fighter into a level one mage) might not be the smartest choice if the next dungeon your party heads to would greatly benefit from having a frontline warrior instead of a weak caster. Or having someone who can disarm traps, or heal, etc.

Of course, I'm a bit biased in my opinion: I greatly prefer multi-classing demihuman characters to dual-classing human ones.
Which is probably another reason no to dual-class: It's simply not necessary in order to beat the game.

Of course, if you think you can only have fun playing with the most "optimized" builds or like to roleplay a devout veteran fighter-turned-priest, rock on!
It's all about enjoying the game the way you want to in the end. :)

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Postby GawainBS » Thu Oct 17, 2013 7:36 am

The Dualclassing suggested above takes into account that you never will be without a vital role.
The Druid could just as well be a multiclass Fighter/Druid.
The Mage really benefits from being single- or dualclass, since high levels mean more and better spells. Multiclassing your only Mage in a six-character party is gimping yourself, since his Mage levels will only receive half the XP, which in itself is already divided by six. The three levels of Fighter are, XP & advancement-wise, negligable after the first dungeon, but they do provide a nice cushion of HP and solid backup in the form of archery. The same thing goes for the Druid to a certain extent, but Druids get their best spells quicker (max lvl 7 spells) and they need less XP to advance, so the impact is less severe.

P.S.: An actual Fighter/Mage is less suited for beginners, since they work best as spell-buffed warriors, which require the player to know the best defensive spells + their uses and where to search/manipulate the game to get the proper equipment. Don't get me wrong: It's my personal favourite AD&D class.

P.P.S.: If you've got Heart of Winter, install it. The gameplay benefits it brings are worth it, even if you won't be touching the expansion areas anytime soon. The only disadvantage? The game uses more of BGII's less attractive sprites, IMO.

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Fonteles
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Postby Fonteles » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:36 am

Gawain, why the bard needs to be a half-elf?

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Postby GawainBS » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:46 am

If you're not dualclassing (which Bards can't anyway), Humans have not a single advantage over other races. Half-Elfs at least have infravision. Personally, I also like the slender half-elf avatar better than the bulkier human one.

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Postby Claudius » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:53 am

Don't half elfs get a bonus to sleep and charm attacks? They also got a bonus to pick pocket in the pen and paper.
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Postby GawainBS » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:12 pm

Claudius wrote:Don't half elfs get a bonus to sleep and charm attacks? They also got a bonus to pick pocket in the pen and paper.


Those too! Thanks for reinforcing my point! ;)

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Fonteles
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Postby Fonteles » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:30 am

Tks a lot folks. you really helped me out.

I think Im prepared to play BG (I never played).

Ps: Im not using any mods at all. If i install one (easy to use) could this crash my game?

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Postby GawainBS » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:17 pm

Well, the mod COULD crash your game, just as you COULD get hit by a meteor.
I'd very much advice you to install the ease-of-use mod. It really reduces the "work" and increases the fun, without changing the game.