Believing your right vs Being right

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 8:31 pm

Looking at various cultures in the world, I'm often confronted with the view that if someone believes they are right in accordance with their culture, that they are indeed right.

This saddens me when I look at some middle eastern countries that believe that because someone else worships another god, that they are wrong and that gives them permission to hate them, and even go to war with them.

My question is this... Is there absolute right? Is it something that is easily definiable. In every situation, is someone going to be right and someone going to be wrong? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? What if the moral code you live by is different than someone elses moral code?

Quark · Post by **Quark** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:01 pm

You wanna become more depressed? Read a book called Ishmael, by Daniel Quinn.

You think the Middle East is bad? It's the whole freaking human race that's bad.

Oh, and it does answer adress the issue of right vs wrong. Quite simply, humans don't have the capacity, nor the right, to determine what is right and wrong, good and evil.

Azeroth · Post by **Azeroth** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:15 pm

Like you said I guess it's all realative to wear you are from. I mean who's to say that worshipping satan is bad? or going to war is bad? It's a very confusing issue and one that strains my poor little mind.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:19 pm

But looking at it, War is bad. Hating someone because of the colour of thier skin or choice of religion is wrong. Which leads me to believe that there has to be some absolute right and wrong out there...

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:27 pm

Originally posted by Vehemence:
Looking at various cultures in the world, I'm often confronted with the view that if someone believes they are right in accordance with their culture, that they are indeed right.

This saddens me when I look at some middle eastern countries that believe that because someone else worships another god, that they are wrong and that gives them permission to hate them, and even go to war with them.

My question is this... Is there absolute right? Is it something that is easily definiable. In every situation, is someone going to be right and someone going to be wrong? How do we know who is right and who is wrong? What if the moral code you live by is different than someone elses moral code?

A few things are crystal clear "right" or "wrong" such as needless murder, stealing, and a few other things. Then there are decisions that are not crystal clear. There is no definite line between right and wrong, merely a very large blurry grey area. One such thing is "is it right to judge people on how they judge others?"

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:53 pm

why does there have to be moral right and wrong implications for murder and other supposedly crystal clear bad things?
why can't the strength and cunning of a person be considered a good virtue?
the same goes with war, why can't it be celebrated as a clash of mighty people?
why should the trait of shying away and avoiding conflict be considered a good thing? that is avoiding the very nature of humanity, it denies everythign that we are.
nothing is ever gained by shying away.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:58 pm

Originally posted by nael:
why does there have to be moral right and wrong implications for murder and other supposedly crystal clear bad things?
why can't the strength and cunning of a person be considered a good virtue?
the same goes with war, why can't it be celebrated as a clash of mighty people?
why should the trait of shying away and avoiding conflict be considered a good thing? that is avoiding the very nature of humanity, it denies everythign that we are.
nothing is ever gained by shying away.

Because war is mostly fueled by the greed of people who want more for themselves by taking it away from others. It's companions are hatrid, anger and envy.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:06 pm

Originally posted by nael:
why does there have to be moral right and wrong implications for murder and other supposedly crystal clear bad things?
why can't the strength and cunning of a person be considered a good virtue?
the same goes with war, why can't it be celebrated as a clash of mighty people?
why should the trait of shying away and avoiding conflict be considered a good thing? that is avoiding the very nature of humanity, it denies everythign that we are.
nothing is ever gained by shying away.

Serious questions for you to answer:

What makes you think that you are right that war and fighting are the very nature of humanity?

What is so mighty about taking a gun and putting a hole in someone's head with a bullet, or dropping an A-bomb or nuke on a weaker country, or for that matter on a stronger country?

Unknown~
Anyone has the 'power' to take a life, but it takes true power to save a life.

What makes you think you are right?

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:07 pm

hatred anger and envy are all human emotions, why are they demonized over others?

do you think the world would be as far as it is today if envy weren't a driving factor for us to out do one another and continue to strive toward bigger and better things?

if we were all happy complacent people since the beginning of time, we would still just be sitting around a fire throwing spears at animals.

it was the fact that one man became stronger and took over tribes that other men would rise up against them. the constant struggle amongst man forces us to become better.

besides...a nice war today would be nice...get rid of a few billion people.

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:10 pm

i did not mean that only fighting are the only traits of people, they just happen to be the traits of soem people. and no matter who you are or what kind of person you are, what right does someone else have to assume that their abilities and traits make them a "better" person?

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:11 pm

and i do agree that guns are for pu$$ies.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:18 pm

Originally posted by nael:
hatred anger and envy are all human emotions, why are they demonized over others?

Ask yourself seriously, would you rather be hated or loved? Would you rather make someone angry or happy? Scared or comfoted? These emotions are demonised, since they have a nasty habbit of making others feel bad.

Originally posted by nael:
do you think the world would be as far as it is today if envy weren't a driving factor for us to out do one another and continue to strive toward bigger and better things?

How do we know that working together out of striving to find a way to help eachother isn't a better solution?

Originally posted by nael:
if we were all happy complacent people since the beginning of time, we would still just be sitting around a fire throwing spears at animals

If that made people happy, then you'd probably be right. But we're all trying to find something which makes us happy. Have you ever heard of war making people happy?

Originally posted by nael:
it was the fact that one man became stronger and took over tribes that other men would rise up against them. the constant struggle amongst man forces us to become better

Is that the only way though? Sure, it works for the monkeys, but that's a simplistic way of ensuring the survival of the species. Is that really relevant to a race like the human species? Are we that insecure of ourselves that we have to be better than everyone else? Why? What possibly makes people feel compelled to be better than the other person? Why not simply share ideas and grow that way?

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:30 pm

who cares if others feelings are hurt? those are the weak ones. we have all been victims of hate or ridicule, what separates the strong from the weak is how you handle it. do you mind steppign on an ant?

you keep mentioning sharing and loving and helping...that is fine and dandy for you to value, but why do you insist on trying to make the antithesis of these morally "bad".

people have made war and such "bad" because they are too weak to comprehend it.
if a sheep says to a wolf that it is bad, does this make it bad or is the sheep wishing to demonize what it cannot be, which is the stronger.

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:39 pm

Originally posted by nael:
who cares if others feelings are hurt? those are the weak ones. we have all been victims of hate or ridicule, what separates the strong from the weak is how you handle it. do you mind steppign on an ant?

you keep mentioning sharing and loving and helping...that is fine and dandy for you to value, but why do you insist on trying to make the antithesis of these morally "bad".

people have made war and such "bad" because they are too weak to comprehend it.
if a sheep says to a wolf that it is bad, does this make it bad or is the sheep wishing to demonize what it cannot be, which is the stronger.

Look at nature. Is it there to compete? Does the sheep really want to be a wolf? There is balance in nature. There are billions of organisms that work together to form a comlex living ecosystem where each survives based on the other factors in it's environment. The sheep eats the wolf to survive. However, it's also serving a purpose by limiting the number of sheep. This helps control the sheep from completely eating the grass which in turn is a way of providing for the insects etc etc.

Humans seem to have this idea that they are the most important species on the planet and they can do whatever they like. If they continue to do this, then the balance will be destroyed and in the end, no life will be able to be sustained.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:44 pm

Originally posted by nael:
hatred anger and envy are all human emotions, why are they demonized over others?

do you think the world would be as far as it is today if envy weren't a driving factor for us to out do one another and continue to strive toward bigger and better things?

if we were all happy complacent people since the beginning of time, we would still just be sitting around a fire throwing spears at animals.

it was the fact that one man became stronger and took over tribes that other men would rise up against them. the constant struggle amongst man forces us to become better.

besides...a nice war today would be nice...get rid of a few billion people.

Nice...war...how...contradictorily oxymoronic...

One simple way to judge what is right and what is wrong, though even this is not always right, is "desctructive = wrong" and "constructive = right." If a war were to occur now, it would be far more destructive than constructive. There is only one point to war. That point is to show the survivers that peace is better. War comes about when we become forgetful of the last war and the horrible tragedies that resulted of it. Some might descriminate against what I've said because of what I'm about to say, but the anime Gundam Wing does a good job of explaining this, especially as the series reaches the end. (Note: I had already figured this stuff out for myself long before I ever watched Gundam Wing).

Hatred, anger, and envy...hatred causes destruction. Envy leads to hatred and anger. Do not mistake "healthy" ambition for greed.

Anger...you really shouldn't have mentioned this because now you've got me started. As I've mentioned before, I'm part Irish and if there's anything in my behaviour(irl) that proves it, it's my good ol' "Irish Temper," though mine's worse than most. A VBS teacher thought I was demon possessed once because of my temper. The schools made my parents take me to a psychologist and have lots of tests done on me, thinking that my temper was the result of some sort of chemical emballance, though they were wrong. Anger can be constructive, but is more often destructive.

Constructive Anger: Someone does something wrong and you become angry and rectify the situation in a constructive away.

Destructive Anger: Someone does something(usually wrong) and you rectify the situation in a destructive way.

I'm not very big, but I'm stronger than I look, especially when I've lost control of my temper. I've dented metal walls and put holes in sheetrock walls when angry. I once attempted to throw a schooldesk at someone.(lucky for them, I'm not even close to THAT strong.) I stabbed someone's hand with a fork. I've bitten people. All done out of anger. All instances were the result of provocation. I have never gotten mad at someone without first being provoked. All of them destructive situations. In fact, I'm typing slower than usual right now because the knuckle where my the little finger on my right hand connects to my hand is in quite severe pain because I got mad today and punched the wall. A very stupid, and very wrong, thing to do, especially since we have walls as hard as concrete instead of sheetrock.

More often than not, anger is destructive and more often than not, anger is wrong. Everything I have ever done out of anger has been wrong. No matter how much you try to "rationalize" it, it's wrong.

*hides in the corner, protected by her Silence Wall, to avoid the flames*

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:46 pm

so, you admit that good can come from war and fighting...humans are grossly overpopulated. i completely agree with your last statement...however you said that "when a sheep eats a wolf"...just giving you a hard time.

Georgi · Post by **Georgi** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:49 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Hatred, anger, and envy...hatred causes destruction. Envy leads to hatred and anger.

"Fear leads to hate... Hate leads to suffering..."

Sorry. Carry on...

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:52 pm

Originally posted by nael:
however you said that "when a sheep eats a wolf"...just giving you a hard time.

You know what I mean

The trouble with the war getting rid of people, is that it usually get's rid of the wrong people. The innocent people suffer due to the stupidity of others. That to me is not right either.

nael · Post by **nael** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:53 pm

thank you yoda

Vehemence · Post by **Vehemence** » Thu Aug 30, 2001 10:57 pm

Originally posted by Georgi:
"Fear leads to hate... Hate leads to suffering..."

Sorry. Carry on...

Oh dear, who let yoda in here?