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advise for a melee build

Posted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:33 am
by ShadowOnTheSun
Hello everyone :) i am new to the forums and this is the first time i am posting.

i was thinking about making a powerful melee build. i came up with a fighter 13/ frenzied berserker 5/ weapon master 7/ neverwinter nine 5. i was gonna give him weapon focus falchion and later on give him monkey grip so that i can equip a tower shield for good defence against boss enemies and the like. when i am fighting other enemies i won't use the shield and use power attack instead. what do you think about the build? can you guys give me other ideas for a melee build?

thanks

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:22 pm
by Loki[D.d.G]
I have advised this build before. Try Fighter 9/Bard 1/RDD 10/Berzerker 10. It has crazy melee stats and is capable of crushing enemies, perfect for powerplaying.

Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:35 pm
by Claudius
Your build will be good too.

FB - supreme cleave and insane improved power attack
WM - great crit multiplier on your power attack!
F- AB and possibly EWF/EWS feats! EWF is most important with imp Pow Att
NWN- dunno I guess 2d6 sneak and full BAB

consider

F8 WM 7 FB 5 Rogue 10????????????????????????????????????????????????

Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:43 pm
by KaaH
!!! Untested !!!

Aasimar
Bard 4 / Fighter 6 (last Fighter Lvl@30 to avoid XP penalty)/ RDD 10 / BG 10

Start with:
Str -> 14
Dex -> 16 + 6 on lvl up (4 pre Epic), finaly take 3x Gr. Dex feat (epic)
Con -> 12
Int -> 10
Wis -> 10 (Aasimar included)
Char ->18 (Aasimar included) + 1 on lvl up @ Lvl20

advance Bard / Figter to 3 / 2 alternating lvls, then take all RDD lvl's, after that 3 Blackguard (taking Divine Might feature@ Lvl 18), another 2 Figter lvl's (gain Weapon Specialisation@20; Epic WS@30)

On epic lvls just keep in mind to throw in last Bard (maximize tumble) and the second last Fighter lvl after that


Ending Stats:

Str -> 22 (8 from RDD)
Dex -> 25 (needed for Perf. TWF)
Con -> 14 (2 from RDD)
Int -> 12 (2 from RDD)
Wis -> 10
Char ->21 (2 from RDD)

This build has BAB of 26 -> 6 attacks/round -> doubled by Perf. TWF
Epic Divine Might (get that +9 Char Item to gain +20 Damage on every strike)
Cha Bonus to Saves

Feats to mention:
TWF
Impr. TWF
Gr. TWF
Perfect TWF

Cleave
Gr. Cleave

Divine Might
Epic Divine Might

WF
Epic WF
WS
Epic WS

Gr. Dex
Finesse

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:10 am
by Scottg
Some cautionary advice..

In the power gamer vein of thought - look for what a particular class does best - usually bonus like "additions" (..typically feat oriented). Note thought that often a particular class either needs to be almost pure OR requires only a few levels for maximum *character* potential.

Another critical element is: will those "additions" be useful in-game?

A good example here is the Weapon Master.. it requires a TON of feats and requires criticals for its "addition" (or bonus). Yes, criticals can be useful in both campaigns - HOWEVER, as you go higher in character level (within each campaign), they become increasingly less useful because the number of opponents become increasingly immune to criticals (shadows and spirits). For those two reasons I don't think I would ever recommend a weapon master build for the OC or MOTB. (..note that the "whirlwinds" are near useless for anything but criticals.)

Nearing the "end of the list" here, be wary of "buffing" characters. By the time you have finished your "buffing", the battle may already be over and you might not be the victor. IMO worse than "not being the victor" is that you didn't get a chance to participate. So if you have a "buff" or two (or 3 or 4 or 5), either make sure that "buff" lasts a long time (and is basically always on) OR keep your "buff" to 1 only.

One final concern is that the character faces a fair bit of dialog in both campaigns, and particularly so in the OC. Moreover such dialog options often require fairly high levels in diplomacy and occasionally other interaction skills like intimidate, bluff, (and less often - taunt, lore, and spellcraft). Builds that are almost exclusively melee oriented often suffer from low hit skill points and are usually limited to intimidate alone - and frankly it isn't enough. Good "pick-up" melee classes are warpriests and blackguards (though neither have good skill points). Bards, Harper Agents, and Rouge (and rouge-like) classes can provide more skill points ..and particularly the Ranger is well suited for this task (because it has high skill points AND is a high attack class).

As far as a suggestion is concerned:

I like KaaH's basic build premis.. BUT, I'd take the drow instead (and in fact I try to take the Drow race for virtually all builds except a Monk). That spell resistance they have is just AWESOME.

Also, ALWAYS try and calculate the amount of xp you'll loose for a specific build if you use more than one base class (..that doesn't have a racial "out").

In the end though the best overall melee build isn't specifically a melee class: the Monk.

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:27 am
by KaaH
playability was the reason for Aasimar over Drow^^

I took Drow for a lot of builds... it's nice(in theorie), but ECL is not :-)

The Build is meant to take a big 2h weapon @start (taking Pwr Attack and Cleave early on) and than make the transition to 2 weapons when BAB (penalty) and TWF feats are bearable...

it should be playable in the OC and X-Pack

Cha bonus to saves should make the loss of SR less painful (may take Resilance feat and being fire/stun/paralysis imune helps too)

:-)

nodding in agreement to the things said by scottg

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:00 pm
by Scottg
KaaH wrote:playability was the reason for Aasimar over Drow^^

I took Drow for a lot of builds... it's nice(in theorie), but ECL is not :-)

The Build is meant to take a big 2h weapon @start (taking Pwr Attack and Cleave early on) and than make the transition to 2 weapons when BAB (penalty) and TWF feats are bearable...

it should be playable in the OC and X-Pack

Cha bonus to saves should make the loss of SR less painful (may take Resilance feat and being fire/stun/paralysis imune helps too)

:-)

nodding in agreement to the things said by scottg
You know - I've never had a problem with the character level penalty for the Drow.. even for my Warlock (which is overall a fairly weak character until in the "teens" level-wise). However I've found that the spell resistance just allows for a lot of "immunity" to what seems like *everything* (though immunity to paralysis and fire is very nice). Conversely high saves do NOT seem to be what they should be. Saves in the OC are OK, but saves in MOTB seem broken.

Also after playing a dual-weapon character vs. a two-handed weapon plus tower shield.. I like the two-handed weapon plus tower shield better - its a lot more defensive and overall works better for most of the game-play. Both are fun though. ;)

Hmm, I may work up a "recommended character" (need to do some testing though)..

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 1:28 pm
by Soontir Fel
Divine Dragon is the perfect melee build with ridiculously high saves -get Epic Resilience feat and you will never fail a save, 500 something Hp, and Epic Divine Might is just not fair!

Divine Dragon (P9/Src1/RDD10/DC10) - NWN2Wiki - a Wikia wiki

But I play with a fighter 4 / bard 1 / red dragon disciple 10 / weapon master 5 out-side Mulsantir dealing with Okku.

Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:09 am
by Scottg
Soontir Fel wrote:Divine Dragon is the perfect melee build with ridiculously high saves -get Epic Resilience feat and you will never fail a save, 500 something Hp, and Epic Divine Might is just not fair!

Perfect? I don't think so. ;)

Again, you can certainly fail saves in MOTB. (..that Warlock character I mentioned had MUCH higher saves then the "divine dragon" - and failed saves all the time in MOTB. Ok, I didn't so much "fail" the saves but rather the damage persisted DESPITE the saves. Spell resistance on the other hand worked with a lot of traps and against most spells.)

Anyway..

I did find a problem with the initial build proposed by ShadowontheSun - that the additional damage for improved power attack via the Frenzied Berserker at level 5 does NOT work with a 2 handed weapon AND a shield.

............................................................................

Now for my proposed build (which WAS tested):

The "Intellectual Barbarian". :D

Race Drow:

Barbarian: 19, Frenzied Berserker 10, Fighter or Cleric 1.

First 13 levels are as a Barbarian. Next 5 are as a Frenzied Berserker. Next 6 are back again as a Barbarian. Then 1 level as a Fighter or Cleric. Finally the remaining 5 as a Frenzied Berserker.

Starting Attributes: Str. 16, Dex. 10, Con. 16, Wis. 8, Chr. 10.
Level increases in nothing but Constitution.

Feat selection (in order):
Able Learner, Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Resiliency, Greater Cleave, Extended Rage, Improved Power Attack, Epic Damage Reduction 3/-, Epic Damage Reduction 6/-, Epic Damage Reduction 9/-, Extra Rage, *Blind Fight.

Rational:

First off - the Drow is IMO a no-brainer. That spell resistance is something you just won't be able to get any other way with a melee character (besides the Monk). Furthermore, the net attribute point distribution is the highest of any race (though it isn't particularly well suited to this build). Finally, it has some actually USEFUL racial "spells" and bonuses other than spell resistance. Note that *some* players may find it difficult to play this character, but frankly its pretty easy to play melee build characters already - so there is some compensation here.

The "Intellectual" part of the Intellectual Barbarian is there strictly for "padding" your skill points. It allows you to increase non-class skills. Furthermore, the 1st feat should be Able Learner - which cuts the net cost on those off-class skills, and effectively allows for moderate proficiency in a LOT more skills.

The Barbarian class was chosen for several reasons. Number one - its a high BAB class. Number two - its one of the highest hitpoint classes. Number three - it does provide attribute enhancement via Rage. Most importantly (number four) - it has damage reduction (in addition to 1-3). Number Five - its a medium skill point class with 4 points (plus intelligence modifiers) every level, thats *twice* the number of skill points per level when compared to most other melee classes. Number six - it has bonuses to trap saves and will saves where any melee character is traditionally weak.

Numbers 1 & 3, provide excellent offensive capability. Moreover the offensive capability scales well throughout the character's level progression. Because the class's BAB is high - Power Attack (needed for the Frenzied Berserker class) will likely be "ON" all the time and *still be effective*. (i.e. your higher BAB compensates for Power Attack's hit penalty.) Note that Power Attack would be your second feat selection (at level 3). For those rare opponents that have higher AC's early in the game - you have Rage (which should modify your Strength enough to be able to hit them WITH Power Attack ON).

Numbers 2 & 3 & 4 - all provide excellent defense. In particular that damage reduction is "SPECIAL". First of all its doesn't have any negating feature (like Magical, Alchemical, or Cold Iron), rather it works *all the time*. Next it stacks with epic damage reduction (..and only the Dwarven Defender has this same feature). Finally, at least some of this protection can be had early on. In this build the first point of damage reduction is acquired at level 7. At level 9 you should choose the "Greater Resiliency" feat for another point of damage reduction. At level 10 you'll receive one more point (..3/- in damage reduction at level 10 is pretty outstanding). At level 13 you'll have one more point (total 4/-) until you get to epic character levels. At character level 21 you'll have another point of damage reduction from the Barbarian class AND you'll grab the epic feat damage reduction for another 3/- (..total 8/-). At 23 another epic feat damage reduction of 3/- (..total 11/-). At 24 your final point from your final level as a Barbarian (..total 12/-). At 25 your final epic feat damage reduction of 3/- (..total 15/-).

The Frenzied Berserker was chosen because it can add to Rage, but more importantly for its effect on Power Attack and Improved Power Attack - ESPECIALLY WITH *2* Handed Weapons. The "bulk" of this Power Attack Improvement coincides with your selection of Improved Power Attack at level 18 and nets a staggering +20 damage per hit with 2-handed weapons (..at a time when you can take the "shaving" of - 6 to your attack).

The Fighter or Cleric is pure "gravy". Foremost either selection provides access to Heavy Armor. In truth this isn't that big a deal because there are excellent Medium armors available .. but its there if you want it. 2nd the Fighter provides an extra Feat without penalty to your base attack. Conversely the Cleric provides 2 Feats via the Cleric Domains - some of which you can NOT choose from your standard feat list. For instance my preference is for the Cleric (over the Fighter) taking the Cleric Domains: Good or Chaos & Water. "Good" gives the Paladin "Aura of Courage" feat (..fear immunity). "Water" provides Evasion (which works well with the Barbarian's "trap sense"). The "Chaos" domain (as an alternative to the "Good" domain), gives "Slippery Mind" which works well with the Barbarian's will bonuses via Indomitable Will and Rage. The only negative with the Cleric is a net reduction of one point to the character's BAB. Also note that the Cleric "opens up" the Diplomacy skill to higher skill levels.

The specific progression (i.e. "when" the Barbarian was multi-classed), was chosen for several reasons. First - it had to accommodate the feat Able Learner at the beginning. Even with that accommodation we could have structured the crossover to a Frenzied Berserker at character level 10 - BUT we wouldn't have had a high enough BAB to really make use of the class's Power Attack enhancement, nor would we have had Improved Power attack. Most importantly however we would only have had 1/- in damage reduction - which really doesn't balance the character's offensive and defensive qualities.

*Note that Blind Fight is chosen last.. not only does this character have the highest listen skill to "see" opponents that might be hiding or invisible, but the Drow also has the spell "See Invisibility", so IMO the feat is the least important of the group and as a result is basically a "bonus" at the end.

......................................

So whats the builds final "tally" (at level 30)?

Good skills values and number of skills, in particular a 16 in "use magic item" can allow the use of most spells via scrolls. Also, *all* of the dialog-type skills can be at *least* at moderate levels (for a given character level).

At *least* 550 hit points (depending on fighter vs. cleric and choosing epic constitution when selecting the fighter class).

15/- Damage Reduction.

Spell Resistance 41.

High Fortitude save of 25.

Good Trap saves.

Good Will saves with Rage ON.

7 Rages & Frenzy.

With a "one level Cleric build":

With Improved Power Attack *ON* and unarmed attack:
25/20/15/10/5/0
1-3 +15

With Improved Power Attack *ON* but with the *two handed weapon* Great sword (basic with no bonuses):
25/20/15/10/5/0
2-12 +28

..as above but with Rage in addition:
28/23/18/13/8/3
2-12 +33

..as above and adding Frenzy:
31/26/21/16/11/6
2-12 +37

- Again, that is without any enhancement bonuses OR attack/damage modifiers of any kind (..which is HIGHLY unlikely). And of course *all* of those modifiers would stack to these figures.:mischief:

So where is the character "weak"?

Without "Slippery Mind" and Rage "on", non-spell mental attacks (like stun from an illithid) can sometimes work.. BUT chances are most opponents that can perform such "attacks" usually can *not* overcome the character's damage reduction when they start to physically attack. Actual "Will" type spells however rarely penetrate the character's spell resistance.

The character can still be knocked down.

The AC level even with good full plate is at best moderate. Of course with damage reduction of 15 its a fairly moot point. 10 in Tumble can also add a + 1 to AC.

The exceedingly rare "deafening" effect coupled with some sort of concealment could pose a problem. But again though, when will that happen that spell resistance won't prevent it? Moreover, the concealment is often via hiding or invisibility - and for that you have a racial spell.

Of course spell casting is limited, it *is* a melee build after all. However spell casting is NOT eliminated (because of the skill points in "use magic device").

Finally, (and most notably), without *any* additional enhancement bonuses to hit, 3 of your attacks per round may not make contact. With Rage and Frenzy you can usually get that down to -2 or -1 (..overall 4 to 5 attacks per round instead of 6). Again though, that is *without* any additional hit modifiers.