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Just beat PST for a 2nd time yesterday. What a mindblowing game, worthy of a nobel prize in literature....err...videogames

I played as a mage with Morte, Annah, Dak'kon, FFG, and Ignus in my party

Anyway, a few questions. This is based off the ending where you merge with TTO and go off to fight in the blood war (which i think is the most appropiate out of all possible endings, as it feels more "PST" like and complete than the other 2)

questions:

It was implied that Ignus and Vhailor have some sort of past connection to one of your previous incarnations, but I could never get the full story out of them. Anyone know what it is, and why they betray you in the fortress?

It was mentioned that Old Mebbeth and El Veine(sp?) actually *were* Ravel, and once you talk to Mebbeth about being Ravel after you come back from Curst, she is on her deathbed and said she forgot she was Ravel. I never understood how this worked; how you can be multiple people at a time existing in different locations. I was rather confused by Mebbeth's vague explanation. Can someone elaborate on this? Did she go to sleep only to wake up at night and wreak havoc as Ravel fight-club-esque style?

There were timeline inconsistencies with the Practical incarnation. He was the one who pulled Morte off the pillar. Morte has been with TNO for a looong time, it seems. Long enough to see dozens of TNO incarnations. Yet the Practical incarnation is the same one who sacrificed Deinorra. I was under impression since you meet Deinorra's father in the upper ward, the practical incarnation was around not too long ago. What's the deal?

If you have the bronze sphere you find out that the "Good incarnation" was the first incarnation. Ironically, the "Good" incarnation committed a crime so horrific it made the sum of all crimes made by later incarnations seem miniscule. Anyone know what this crime was?

I love the last few places in the game, including seeing your comrades fight to the death, fighting Ignus/Vhailor, talking to your previous incarnations and Deinorra, and finally ending the game by asking TTO Ravel's infamous riddle, which finally gets answered by you

The one thing I don't like is the lack of closure given to some characters, particularly Morte,Annah and Deinorra (sp?). I would have preferred an epilogue of some sort for all PCs. FFG said she would travel the planes eventually searching for you, and Dak'kon stated his debt was finally repaid, but what about the others? Any speculation on what Morte and Annah do in their free time (haha)?


Does Deinorra even exist as a ghost anymore, or did she finally lay to rest? Does the Fortress of regrets even exist now that its creators have abandoned it? And what of the shadows that once hunted you?

It was implied that Ignus and Vhailor have some sort of past connection to one of your previous incarnations, but I could never get the full story out of them. Anyone know what it is, and why they betray you in the fortress?

Not having used Vhailor, I can't say about him. But Ignus admits right up front that he received his initial "education" in pyromancy from the NO.

As to why they "betray" you, bear in mind that they represent extremes of behavior. You don't fit either extreme, so the appropriate avatar is summoned to attack you. As to whether it's really Ignus or Vhailor--I have my doubts.

Does Deinorra even exist as a ghost anymore, or did she finally lay to rest?

She's still there, waiting for you, having seen your possible futures. Presumably you would go to join her after death, if that was your strong desire; if not, she would no doubt confront your ghost in a not very pleasant manner.

Hi, agreed with what you said about Torment's superbness I'm glad to see someone posting such a nice discussion topic - I've been lurking for ages, but felt like I had to sign up and contribute a little now
*Lots of spoilers below*

About Ignus and Vhailor - Did you not get the memory flash where you remember Ignus approaching one of TNO's previous incarnations (the one who taught him) as a young boy, trying to talk to him about his connection with fire, and the previous incarnation rebuffs him quite violently? (thrusting his hand into the flames in the fireplace, I think)
I believe that memory is the most direct information you get on TNO's history with Ignus. It's also one of my favourite "memories" in the game - the brief description of Ignus as he was when he was human, this frightened boy who is already obsessed, really added a lot of depth to his character for me
Vhailor was a relentless and powerful Mercykiller when alive, who persued TNO's practical incarnation all over the planes. Knowing that Vhailor was a potential threat even to him, the Practical incarnation cleverly trapped him in the room where you encounter him in the game. You can get a memory flash about this, but I forget the exact dialogue option that leads to it. I think it's when you ask him to judge you.
So, both Ignus and Vhailor have plenty of reason to hate TNO as he was responsible for destroying both of their lives as humans. Perhaps he was indirectly responsible in Ignus' case, but it's still strongly implied in that memory I mentioned before that Ignus' power could have manifested itself differently if TNO hadn't been such a violent teacher.

About Ravel as Mebbeth, Marta and Ei Vene - The way I saw it, Ravel doesn't physically become them in the sense where they exist as real, individual beings. Ravel is still mazed when you encounter her, and even though she says she can leave, it's obvious that she never left the maze physically before. That means that Mebbeth is not a shapeshifted Ravel in the flesh.
So either she takes temporary control of their minds, like a possession, or they aren't real people at all, but only images projected by Ravel, which is what I tend to think.
Because this is Planescape, it makes sense that Mebbeth would *feel* that she is a real person, although she is really only an illusion created by Ravel. That would also explain why she has only got a vague sense of how she could be both Ravel and Mebbeth at the same time.
Something which supports the illusion theory is that both Mebbeth and Ei Vene seem to be visible only to TNO and his party. When asking other Dustmen about Ei Vene they will say that they've never heard of her, and when you go to the market for Mebbeth someone comments that they've never heard of any midwife in Ragpicker's Square. That would lead you to believe that they aren't real, and didn't exist prior to their meeting with TNO.
One odd little thing is that Marta says that Pharod told her strip the items from the corpses. That would make it seem like she *has* had a life and interactions with the rest of the world prior to meeting TNO.

About the Practical incarnation - Like you said, the confusion must be due to timeline inconsistensies. Also (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) when Practical meets Deionarra he is preparing to travel to Baator (we learn that from Zachariah) presumably to question the Pillar of Skulls. This would mean that he is visiting the Pillar for the first time and has not got Morte with him yet, making the timeline even more messed up.

The First incarnations crime - I've played the game enough times to be sure that there is no way to find out what his crime was. I imagine the story writers left this out for the same reason they you never learn his real name: No matter what they told us, we would probably be slightly disappointed. Imagination is sometimes better than fact
This is pure fantasizing, but in the public sensorium there is a sensory stone which contains the experience of a war general who has burned a whole city full of innocents because he had orders to do so, and he experiences an overwhelming sense of regret. I always liked to interpret that line you get that "This has stirred some faintly familiar memory in you" (or something to that effect) to mean that perhaps the First incarnation's terrible crime was something similar to this.
There are a lot of hints scattered around that the First incarnation *was* involved in the Blood War somehow, as I'm sure you've noticed. Probably his crime was connected to that.

On character closure and the Fortress of Regrets - I think it depends on your own actions what precisely happens to Deionarra at the end. If you tell her that you don't love her and that Practical was only using her, she says that she will finally go to rest, as she remained only for you. If you say that you do love her, I agree with Fable that she remains a ghost for you.
As for the others, I don't really have any idea what they would do, but I like to think that Annah would find the opportunity to begin a better life. I think that having been exposed to TNO's dilemma of identity would have made all his companions think more about their own, and deal with them in ways they couldn't before. Also, her life in the Hive was uprooted with Pharod's death, so she has very little to go back to. I agree with you that it would be nice to have more closure on this, as I don't really see her ending up very happy, although she may have changed for the better. She had just learned what it meant to love someone, and then lost him.
I think Morte would enjoy finally having his freedom - I'm not sure I see him joining Grace on a potential quest to search for TNO. He was his friend, yes, but he had also suffered along with him for so long, and Morte's general views on life taken into account, I think he would want a life without any more torment.
I would guess that the Fortress collapses some time after TNO and his companions leave it, as it was sustained by his own regret and by his mortality only.

I hope it's okay to make such a long post - I guess it makes me look a bit obsessive seeing as how this is my very first post

Excellent reply.

I must say, I am surprised to see that there are still people playing this game. It is a superb game and I thought I was the only one that was left on Earth who still take this out and play it sometimes.

Anyway, you all have some very good points and here's my theory+a bit of research on the internet. And yes, this is my first post. I only registered to put my opinion on this .

With regard to the Practical Incarnation. I do believe that it is quite possible and not really time inconsistent. Remember the purpose of the crystal. It was created to separates TNO identities and imprison him. If you go to the dialog, it says that the Good Incarnation is the feeling at the back of TNO's skull warning him. So my theory is this. The Practical, Paranoid, and Good Incarnation has always been with TNO. When TNO touched the crystal, it separated out his three major identities. There's the Practical Incarnation (I believe this is the neutral one because he does what needs to be done, good or bad things), the Paranoid Incarnation (I think this is suppose to be evil because he killed so many people), and then there's the Good Incarnation who change his nature through regret. All three identities have been with TNO all the time. I like 3 person living inside you and each wanting to get out and take control. When those things happened, death of Deionarra, rescue of Morte and such, it was the Practical Incarnation taking control. This theory, of course, is based purely on my reasoning. But I think it's a pretty solid one.

Now the mystery of the Good Incarnation and the name part. I think maybe, just maybe, that TNO's name is really Adahn, even though there was another Adahn created when you said Adahn too many times. But we will never know, it's not possible. I did read something about the first incarnation joining the Blood War. Apparently, he did it because he wanted his village spared from the razing of Baatezu, by offering himself in service to the Baatezu, Fjull-Forked-Tongue. What exactly his crime was, I don't know. I don't think we could find out either. But I have a strong feeling that it has something to do with the Blood War.

Just adding my thoughts on a couple of things.

I have also just finished the game and thought to try to help answer some of the questions from my perspective. As far as the practical one goes, there doesn't seem to be too much of a inconsitency. Remember that the paranoid one mentions Deionarra as the ghost lady that haunts him. Also the nameless one could have died many times in between the Practical incarnation and the current one right. Morte prolly has seen several incarnations. Her father is an old man anyways and we dont know if he's fully human or even ages the same way. Personally i felt that the practical incarnation was more evil than the paranoid one, for several reasons. One the paranoid one strikes me more as chaotic neutral as he didn't really kill people for the sake of killing people and more for the fact that he was crazy and trying to protect himself. The Practical one used and abused his companions, was willing to sacrafice an innocent girl, willing to lie to you, killed people without feeling guilty, used random people, and many other crimes. If that doesn't constitue neutral evil i dont know what would. Chances are the shadows will dissapear along with the citedal, without you there to shape it. The shadows would finally be put to rest with you in one of the lower planes. As far as companions, i would think that vailor would journey about righting wrongs, if you didn't kill him that is. Annah might or might go looking for you depending if she's willing to work with fall-from-grace. Morte would never abandon you, who else would he be able to talk to if not for you. Ignus would end up dead even if you didn't kill him because there is no way, someone isn't going to kill him for setting stuff on fire. Dakkon can now return to Limbo now that his mind is sharpened and he knows himself. Falls from grace will keep her word and look for you. Sorry this is so long but i just wanted to try and be thorough. Now im going back and playing it through again.

There had been years since I played the game, but with regard to the Nameless One's incarnations, I agree with TheCrazdPariah's explanations.

And, back at the time I was playing the game, I had never felt there were any inconsistencies. More likely, going back and forth of time events than anything else.

This might clear out things:

" The following was found on a sheet of vellum shuffled in among a manuscript of Candrian's On Planar Travel bought in the Clerk's Ward. It is a history, believed written by one of his companions, of the man known by various names, but most commonly as the "Nameless One" in Sigil.

What of the original incarnation? There was an advisor, whose lying advice wrought betrayal. Hints of a contract signed. A crime was committed, one so awful the acts of all future incarnations are as nothing compared to it. The crime itself is unknown, save the implication that the planes are still slowly dying because of it.

He sought help of the night hag Ravel Puzzlewell, to grant him immortality, so he could escape his punishment and perhaps atone for his crime. And for love of him, Ravel granted his request, stripping his mortality from him. But a dreadful price was paid, since although the death of the body was no longer permanent, it did injure the mind, and memories were forgotten. Thus were born many incarnations, each starting with only fragments of memory of past existences.

There is also a sliver of another memory of Ravel, which seems to tie in with the myth of the three wishes. In the myth a man wishes for the awful knowledge of who he is. Perhaps this refers to a time when the original incarnation realized the full extent of his crime, and what the punishment must be?

There are only fragments from the many incarnations which followed. General of armies, a mage trained by a puissant sorcerer, a bloody-handed criminal chased by the mercykillers, a thief reduced to skulking beneath the streets of Sigil. Wandering many planes, acts of cruelty and kindness, chaos and law. One constant was the symbol of torment on his body, which drew other tormented souls to him. And many to their doom as well, no doubt.

At some point an incarnation which knew of the Fortress of Regrets, more accurately the Fortress of His Regrets, had a conversation with Trias the deva in which he described what he knew of the fortress.

One incarnation lead a revolt in what was then the prime ward, opening all the gates in the ward to the lower planes using an artifact known as the Shadow-Sorcelled Key. The Lady of Pain finally crushed the revolt. Could his scarring be explained by having fallen under the Lady's shadow? Could even an immortal survive that?

Several centuries ago Ravel attempted to open all the portals in Sigil. Whether it was to prove she could solve any puzzle, or as she later claimed to free the Lady from her cage, the Lady mazed her, removing a source of knowledge from access by later incarnations.

More than 200 years ago an incarnation was a member of the Sensates. Apparently this was a happy time for him, but he disappeared, with only rumors of his murder following in his wake.

At some point after this was the time of the 'practical' incarnation, who, but for one, came closest to defeating his enemy. A cold, ruthless incarnation. He kept detailed notes, and had tattooed instructions on his back to future incarnations. He tricked Pharod into a quest for an object he could not be bothered to find himself, and imprisoned the mercykiller Vhailor in a cell only he could release him from merely on the chance that Vhailor's abilities might one day be of use.

He commissioned a dream machine from Xeno Xander, to force the dreams which he could not have. He also commissioned from the Godsmen a portal to reach Ravel in her maze. In the end, he did not have time to make use of either item.

He attempted to thwart his unknown enemy with false bodies, by hiding on outer planes, even building a tomb which was both a trap for his enemy, and a repository of knowledge for future incarnations.

Nothing he could devise could throw off his enemy, so he decided to seek his enemy in his lair. To that end he gathered companions to himself.

He sought knowledge from the pillar of skulls in Avernus, and freed one skull from the pillar who he named Morte. Then he nearly killed the skull when it could not answer his questions. Unfortunately Morte still cannot wholly escape his past, and embroiders the truth. Thus he is not a very reliable source.

He tracked down a githzerai named Dak'kon in Limbo, because of the Karach blade he wields. He saved his life and gained his sworn service by cynically offering the words of Zerthimon. Words which meant nothing to this incarnation.

He enlisted a blind archer, Xachariah, one who could still see by other means, and whose arrows always found his enemies' hearts.

He professed a false love for Deionarra, so he could bind her and make use of her abilities.

Finally, a little more than fifty years ago, he and his companions traveled to the Fortress of Regrets, to scout his enemy, his Mortality. The first part of his plan went well. Deionarra was allowed to die, her love for him anchoring her to the fortress in death, and her powers gaining her insight into the fortress that no other could have provided.

Otherwise it was a disaster. He and his companions were separated. Dak'kon and Morte managed to escape, although wounded in faith and courage. Xachariah and the 'practical' incarnation died, although their bodies returned to Sigil. Possibly his enemy, after defeating him, transported him back to Sigil before killing him for fear that his dying in the fortress would be the end of himself as well?

What was likely the next incarnation was insane, quite likely because of his experiences in the Fortress of Regret. In his insanity he viewed his other incarnations as his enemies, as body-thieves. Although only extant for a few years, he was not unclever.

He destroyed his previous incarnation's laboriously constructed journals, a great loss, hardly balanced by the maunderings he inscribed in his previous incarnation's trapped tomb, and his own rambling journal. He also tried to burn the legacy left by this previous incarnation with Iannis the Advocate, but failed.

He left many traps for his other incarnations, the most devious of which was a sensory stone in the Festhall with two experiences, one overlaying another, the second a snare which only another incarnation could trigger.

He kept a journal, written in the tongue of Uyo, a tongue he guaranteed no one would be able to speak by murdering his teacher, Fin Andlye. This was not enough protection, so he required opening a puzzle box to access its contents, and trapped it besides.

This incarnation was also responsible for an amazing discovery. He found someone who told him his mind was weakening with every death of an incarnation, and who, somehow, was able to prevent memories from slipping away upon death. Unfortunately, this discovery would only benefit a future incarnation. Predictably, the 'insane' incarnation butchered his helper.

In fact, this incarnation viewed anyone who seemed to recognize him as a threat, and threats were all too easily eliminated. Even being mazed by the Lady did not stop his rampage, since he managed to escape his prison. His murderous fury was finally quenched when he met unexpected resistance from one of his victims, and plummeted to his death. This was roughly fifty years ago.

Of the next few incarnations little is known, although one was a powerful mage, and tutored an apprentice named Ignus who loved fire.

Finally there is the last incarnation, who awoke in the Dustmen's Mortuary, the one whose memory is not veiled at death. Curiously, the person who found this incarnation's body and took it to the Mortuary was drawn to the remains. How drawn? Was it Fell? His enemy? Possibly even the mark of torment, drawing another tormented soul even in death?

This last incarnation set out on a quest to backtrack figures from his past, a path which eventually led to his enemy, his Mortality. This was mirrored by his enemy's desire that he follows the path, so that remaining clues to his enemy's location could be eliminated.

He fought Ravel, Trias and his Mortality. He also faced three of his former incarnations. Interesting examples of the Rule of Three.

He and his companions defeated his Mortality, and undid the separation which made him immortal so long ago. His long delayed punishment caught up with him, and he was sentenced to serve in the Blood Wars. "