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Teen Evangelicals (no spam)

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 6:52 am
by dragon wench
I opened up the NYT this morning to discover [url="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/06/us/06evangelical.html?ei=5094&en=5519ede029c494c4&hp=&ex=1160193600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all"]this article[/url] on apparently waning teen evangelism in the US. Oddly enough, just last Friday I was speaking to a US friend and he told me about the movie [url="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/28/AR2006092801923.html"]Jesus Camps.[/url]...

I know it is normal for parents to bring up children with similar values to their own, and that includes religious beliefs, whatever they may be. Indeed, all faiths do so.
But... I have to admit.. I find the above articles..disturbing.
I'm not attacking Christians here, my personal feeling is that people should have the freedom to practice their religious beliefs in peace.. providing they are also tolerant of other creeds or views.
But... I found reading the above... unsettling... Perhaps because of the extremism that it can foster...

Any thoughts?

PS,
please keep this respectful.. I hesitated a bit before posting these articles because of their nature
;)

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:47 am
by VonDondu
I think I misunderstood what you were saying when I posted my first response. Parents want their children to share their faith. Isn't that universal? I'm not sure I see what's so disturbing about this.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:10 am
by Dowaco
I found nothing disturbing in the article. I am one of the 65% of baby boomers who did not become a bible-believing christian. Now that the number is 96%, the "faithful" are beginning to take notice. The dramatic decline in the numbers of evangelical followers is causing them to panic.

Note that this article is not about organized religion but about the TV ministries run by the likes of Falwell. This is a business/political group and I see it as equivalent to MacDonalds, Burger King and Wendy's getting together and reporting that less people are choosing fast food so we better make it more attractive and capture the demographic or our profits will suffer.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:47 am
by Chimaera182
Geez, when I first saw the topic title, I was thinking something completely else. I thought it was more along the lines of the growing threat of evangelical teens. I'm a little happier knowing it's the opposite.

My little Milton group often has some jokes on this, because whenever we talk about Paradise Lost (which we're reading right now) and we say, "Blah blah blah Satan, blah blah," we get some of the most outrageous stares. We decided we would just wait until some people were in earshot or we were wakling behind someone, and just say odd little things like, "Well, if Satan hadn't convinced Adam and Eve to eat of the apple, we wouldn't be here; so in a way, he did a good thing" (this actually was something one of my friends said in class one day, which elicited quite the sharp gasp from one classmate).

Well, that last paragraph was more a segway into this one, despite looking a tad off-topic. But the point is that if this so-called 4 percent is all that's left of evangelical teens, then apparently a vast majority of them are going to wind up at my campus because there is no shortage of Christians here, evangelical or not. For me, being an atheist in schools with such large populations of Christians was more like what they're talking about in the article; this fear that you don't belong, that you are made fun of for being different, singled out, and pressured into "joining." But they never care for the opinions or feelings of those who don't belong. :mad:

There are certainly parts of the article I agree with, though.
Trash cans filled with folded pieces of paper on which the teenagers had scribbled things like Ryan Seacrest, Louis Vuitton, “Gilmore Girls,” “Days of Our Lives,” Iron Maiden, Harry Potter, “need for a boyfriend” and “my perfect teeth obsession.” One had written in tiny letters: “fornication.”
I hate American Idol, I think women would be better off if they just carried grocery bags or didn't even feel they had to carry a ton of stuff at all, Harry Potter, perfect teeth, the need for a boy/girlfriend. I don't want to fault them for disliking such things that are cherished in our culture, as they are superficial (and in the case of things like Harry Potter, blatantly capitalist), but to me it seems more like they're trying to replace one superficial thing with another. And this need to look absolutely perfect, or carry expensive things to hold all your stuff in, is just inherently ridiculous.
...so teenagers will link their identity to Christ and not to the latest flesh-baring pop star
Now, I'm not at all for "flesh-baring pop stars," but who exactly are these people to say that the only thing to replace that with is Christ? Isn't it this kind of adamant yet not-entirely-thought-out thinking that is partly responsible for driving away the people they seek to bring back?
Jesus Camp" opens with an unsettling sequence, during which young Christians -- dressed in camouflage and with their faces painted brown and green -- enact a warlike ritual dedicating themselves to fighting for God. Soon after, we meet the film's stars: 12-year-old Levi, who wears his hair cut short except for a rat's tail, declares he was saved when he was 5 "because I wanted more out of life," and now aims to be a preacher...
:speech: If this movie is anywhere near accurate in its depictions (and I'm sure it isn't), I would be more than terrified. Children declaring jihad--but it's for Jesus, so of course it's okay :rolleyes: --and realizing at the age of 5 that they want to dedicate their lives to a religion they've barely even had the chance to experience... Eegads.
... who serves as a counselor at a summer camp called Kids on Fire in (wait for it) Devil's Lake, N.D.
I just wanted to quote that because it's so funny. Irony of ironies.
But those who find "Jesus Camp" frightening, Grady says, may be missing an important lesson. The evangelicals are "not doing anything illegal," Grady explained recently in a phone interview. "In fact, they're embracing and utilizing democracy to its fullest potential. There's no office too small, no political position that's insignificant [to them]. If I were to say I was scared of these people, then I'm scared of the very tenets of our political system."
(Godwin pending) This is supposed to comfort us? After Hitler and the Nazis tried the direct, military approach and were stopped, they, too, resorted to democracy. They, too, utilized democracy to its fullest potential; they curtailed some of their illegal activities (not all of them, naturally, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if groups like those depicted do some on the side as well). And this is supposed to comfort us? That they're working within the confines of the political system frightens me a whole lot more than if they were not.

I've seen groups like the Jews for Jesus on my campus; frankly, I find that that very concept boggles the mind. The very core of Judaism insists that Jesus Christ could not possibly have been the son of God; for a Jew to believe he was is completely against their beliefs. If they believe in Christ as divine, they are not Jewish. It's as simple as that. And a few weeks ago, some evangelist had begun parking himself near the center of campus and gathering a large crowd around him, talking about how "we" are going to Hell and how he has been saved. He spouts his dogma and gets shouted down by the crowd, maybe someone throws something at him, and suddenly those people in the crowd who were leaning his way feel more sympathetic now, and talk to him later, and there is his victory. Victory through subversion. Is this what those evangelical Christians are wanting? Is this what they're afraid of losing?

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:26 pm
by Magrus
Outside the arena in Amherst, the teenagers at Mr. Luce’s Acquire the Fire extravaganza mobbed the tables hawking T-shirts and CD’s stamped: “Branded by God.” Mr. Luce’s strategy is to replace MTV’s wares with those of an alternative Christian culture, so teenagers will link their identity to Christ and not to the latest flesh-baring pop star.
*gags* It's an advertising and money raising/ brainwashing campaign. Not some "save the souls of the children!" campaign. I'm sorry, I have no respect for the people that run around fretting that everyone hasn't been "saved". Doing seminars, handing out pamphlets, knocking on doors at dawn, etc.

I was tricked into going to a lock-in with a kid I knew from 3rd grade when he called me up again when I was in 7th grade. I say "tricked" because it was supposed to be an "event night", but it was a "convert your old friends night". Complete with preachers, bibles, and the whole deal. I demanded a quarter in order to call my parents so they could pick me up, they told me that I had to stay. I threatened to call the police for kidnapping, they locked me in a room by myself for the rest of the night so I couldn't call 911. Screw their brainwashing. :rolleyes:

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:36 pm
by Sean The Owner
i think everyone should be able to choose what faith they want to follow, if any, and practice as they choose, if the parents do raise their children into a faith, well i wont complain, but if their children want to change faiths because they dont believe in it, why shouldnt they be able to? i find this is more control than anyone should have on them, you cant just say "my kids are going to be christians or catholics, or any other religion when they grow up" because its a personal choice but then again this is completely my opinion so naturally someone will disagree

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:04 pm
by Magrus
Choice of religion is a fabulous thing I think. However, it has been my experience that those working for a religion will use threats, fear, social acceptance and lies as tools to convert people. I don't view this as anything else, and it disgusts me. I have my religion, and my beliefs, and they are mine. I do not go door to door, hand out pamphlets, lie to children, or kidnap them in order to spread my belief system.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:49 pm
by Ashen
Well it has been my experience that when it comes to religion people just well turn blind. Simply put, in 99% of the cases parents did try their hardest to present only their religion to their children and secure in those developmental years their 'succession' in the said religion. Very rarely did/do I see people who purposefully teach their kids history of religion and allow access to others and let their kids choose for themselves. This pretty much tells all for me.

As for the article about the movie above - I am disgusted really that this is allowed. Disgusted. I do not care whose moral sentiments this offends. In fact this violates the Declaration of the Rights of the Child in it's core.

I don't know, this is so beyond my experience that I suppose is an issue in and itself. I am so appalled that I cannot even discuss things like these which probably isn't vise but heck, this is just...

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 3:51 pm
by fable
I'm with Magrus in this, and I'm frankly surprised nobody here remembers the last time this ploy was tried...and the one before that, and the one before that. It seems that periodically cults need to scream about losing numbers to the paynim, in order to pump up recruitment. Nevermind that a year ago "Christian value" groups were crowing about record numbers and the huge clout they had with the powers-that-be. This isn't about realistic, representative figures. It's about driving the troops the extra mile to target non-believers.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 4:39 pm
by Chimaera182
Fable: I do recall. It wasn't that long ago that the Catholic Church was screaming the same thing.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:33 pm
by (old)Mandalore
You rang?





I have been gone doing other things.Just giving you a heads up that i'm still watching over you.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:48 pm
by dragon wench
@Mandalore,
I did ask for no spam....

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:51 pm
by fable
Let's keep spam out of this thread, just as the person who started it asked. There are plenty of threads around for spamming.

Fable: I do recall. It wasn't that long ago that the Catholic Church was screaming the same thing.

I see it as more of an evangelical cult thing, rather than specifically attached to one religion or another. -With the exception of the various Pentacostal churches, which are by nature evangelical. I apologize if this offends anybody, but the fact is that Pentacostals do believe that true believers are under threat, that they must convert the world, and that they are the agents of their god chosen for that purpose.

Posted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:07 pm
by Sean The Owner
fable wrote:I see it as more of an evangelical cult thing, rather than specifically attached to one religion or another. -With the exception of the various Pentacostal churches, which are by nature evangelical. I apologize if this offends anybody, but the fact is that Pentacostals do believe that true believers are under threat, that they must convert the world, and that they are the agents of their god chosen for that purpose.
umm i posted this before but it says i didnt so i dont mean to double post if it DID actually go through, but anyways,

i completely agree with you on this fable, you pretty much read my mind on this, but honestly, can we do anything about it? can anyone? (this is on topic still isnt it?)

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 3:22 am
by LordAce
I watched a little story about that movie Jesus Camps, and I must say I was horrified. Nine and ten year old kids crying about abortion? Are you kidding me? I too feel like people should have the freedom to practice whatever religion they feel like, or not if that's their choice, but this is brainwashing.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:56 am
by fable
Sean The Owner wrote:umm i posted this before but it says i didnt so i dont mean to double post if it DID actually go through, but anyways,
I don't know which disturbs me more, that you wrote this, or that I understood it. ;)
i completely agree with you on this fable, you pretty much read my mind on this, but honestly, can we do anything about it? can anyone? (this is on topic still isnt it?)
Nothing can be done about it. As long as there are people who believe their subjectively perceived theological impressions are objective in nature and more importantly, exclusive where truth is concerned, there will be zealots out to convert everybody else. And what's more, they will continue to use the dirtiest emotional tricks they can find to do so, even if this involves characteristics that most people agree in finding antisocial and repulsive: fear, hatred, arrogance, etc. There is really no way to stop this, except by making sure members of your family unit are emotionally and financially anchored, so they are less likely to become prey to these people.

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:09 am
by Sean The Owner
@LordAce, i think i should get around to watching Jesus Camps, although it may be disturbing i would still like to see it...

@fable, i was hoping you werent going to say that...but it is true

Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 8:27 am
by LordAce
Sean The Owner wrote:@LordAce, i think i should get around to watching Jesus Camps, although it may be disturbing i would still like to see it...

@fable, i was hoping you werent going to say that...but it is true
It certainly is an eye opener as to how much these kids have been brainwashed.