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One article in the local newspaper made me wonder again the question in the title.

The article was about Finnish metal band Lordi (which at least some Europeans here probably know since it won the Eurovision song contest this year). There was also mentioning in several places in that article that there were as young as 4 and 5-years-old children watching the concert.

This not the first time at all when I have either read or seen that young children in heavy metal concerts. And every day there is more and more younger and younger dressed in total black, wearing a fanshirt of different famous' metal bands, such as Black Sabbath, Nightwish, Children of Bodom, Iron Maden...

Now, is heavy metal really something that young children should even know about, not to mention to listen regulary?

In my opinion no, since such young children can hardly understand the lyrics, and mostly metal music is, IMO, too agrressive to children in that age. If I could decided, no person under 16 should listen metal.

What do you think of this?


EDIT: Forgot to add "No Spamming" on the title, so if any mods could add it there I would be very happy

The language and subject matter of the lyrics alone would be a good reason not to have 4 or 5 year olds listening to the lyrics. I think 16 as an age limit is too far though, but if I ever have kids I think I'd try to keep them away from it until they are at least in their teens.

Personally - I can't see the problem.
In my view it is up to the parents to educate the child as to what the music or any other influence entails if they so feel the need.
However starting to "ban" such things will only promote the added curiosity because now it is also forbidden.

Besides, I doubt a 5 year old would learn better values form listening to popular music about sexual content with scantly dressed women or massively flirting "pretty boy" boybans withouth any guidance if they so need. Or any other genre for that matter as most music could be interpreated and over interpretated one way or the other.

And funnily enough, the majority of us growed up, haveing listen to various forms of music and are none the worse for it.
I listened to some hard rock when I was a kid, but it never sticked and my musical taste developed into other genres, yet I'm not agressive in any manner.

Music is just one of the scapegoats of society when bad things happen, so that instead of trying to find out what went wrong and asking the hard questions (such as if the parents are fit parents and raised the kid well enough to cope with issues) it is easier and more "comfortable" to blame it on the music, the games or TV.

I think there are a lot of good things to be learned from heavy metal, as well as some bad things. And it does depend on the age how they absorb these values. But I don't see it can do too much harm

Well, I don't say that there aren't good things in metal, as I listen it myself
It's just that that young are IMO more easily absorbing the bad things from it, in worst case satanism. I have seen too many young (12 and below years old) who have adopted the behaviour of metal bands in a bad way. Such behaviour includes talking suicide, hurting themselves and so on... and from the discussions I have eardropped (forced to do that since the discussion has been taken place in public) I have noticed that those things are caused by the fact that these youngsters believe that kind of acting belongs to the metal fan behaviour...

In the article I mentioned in my first post there was a comment where small child was crying that the band (Lordi) was playing too loud, but still he had to see the show, even if that happened from the corridor...

That's the one bad side of metal, the music is very loud and can easily damage the ears and hearing of young children, whose ears are still developing...

That last point is quite true.

The idea that the bad mannerisms are picked up from trying to 'fit in' isn't unheard of. Lots of Metal bands start gigs by telling people to pick up someone who falls over etc.

Up until my daughter was 2-1/2 and my son was 1 we had always played classical music in the house and car and on their radios when they went to sleep.

My ex-wife and I have always received compliments from people, mostly in restaurants, regarding how well behaved our kids are.

On a particularly long road trip we switched over to a bit of rock and heavy metal, which we are both fans of. We switched to classical music when my ex became pregnant due to the rumors that classical music helps kids develop faster. The next 2 days our kids must have been abducted by aliens because they were not our kids. In addition to the kids' behavior it turned out that my wife and I were also on edge and fighting (which was rare for us). On the third day of the trip my ex suggested we switch back to classical music to see if the music change wasn't the reason for the aggression that was so prolific in our once calm family. Within 6 hours of listening to classical music our kids were back to normal. It took my wife and I until the next day to return to normal but the difference was definitely noticeable.

This was by no means a "scientific" experiment but after seeing the effect that my beloved music had on my kids and our family I have had to limit my listening time for rock and heavy metal.

Kipi wrote:Well, I don't say that there aren't good things in metal, as I listen it myself
It's just that that young are IMO more easily absorbing the bad things from it, in worst case satanism. I have seen too many young (12 and below years old) who have adopted the behaviour of metal bands in a bad way. Such behaviour includes talking suicide, hurting themselves and so on... and from the discussions I have eardropped (forced to do that since the discussion has been taken place in public) I have noticed that those things are caused by the fact that these youngsters believe that kind of acting belongs to the metal fan behaviour...

In the article I mentioned in my first post there was a comment where small child was crying that the band (Lordi) was playing too loud, but still he had to see the show, even if that happened from the corridor...

That's the one bad side of metal, the music is very loud and can easily damage the ears and hearing of young children, whose ears are still developing...

But so can it for all music.
There are "good" and "bad" values in most all music. I do not find it more comforting that little girls are dressing up like the scantly dressed popstars either. And popular music can be played to high anyway as well - it is not unique to heavy rock.

It is a choice you make as a parent, but I do not or can not blame it on the music. Not lest some scientific link can be presented.
It is about raising your kids with values and the knowlegde that it is music and nothing more.

Found one interesting thing that's linked to this discussion:
In other article, which I read today, there were interview of two 5-year-old boys, who were mentioning that they have been practising the "Lordi handsign". The description of the sign was the very same as the handsign of devil...

Firstly, the handsign which mr. Lordi uses in concerts ain't that, but the very similiar handsign that means "I love you".
Secondly, it's quite shocking that so young children uses such sign, when they don't even know what it really means, just because it's cool and Lordi uses it... :speech:

i think..

i dont think kids THAT yong should lisen to it. never the less as another mod said, 16 is too old. im 13 and i LOVE metal. but it is true with the handsigns. a lot of heavy metal bands make the devil handsign which most people(even adults)think is just the "rock on"sign. and ya know *sigh* alot of of metal and alot of signs have similar meaning. sad to see little kids doing it though. heavy metal can play a serious role in their minds, as they do whatever they see and think is"cool"

Apart from loudness damaging hearing, which is of course not related to type of music but only to degree of loadness, I can't see why heavy metal would differ from other types of music with similar structure.

Some studies have suggested that classical music would have a beneficial effect on learning, and it may be so since classical music has a complex structure which may exercise the brain in a way similar to language and maths. It is well known that talent in music, language and maths are related.

Popular music however, has considerbly less variation in structure, but this goes for heavy metal, hit-list pop, synth, techo, hiphop and a variety of genres. Looking at lyrics, I can't see how even the heavy metal songs that rants about evil and Satan would be worse than the pop rants about sex, love, drugs and sterotype gender roles that all popular music usually contains.

@Daemon: One possible explanation for your observations may be that your kids are used to classical music, so they may be conditioned to this. Heavy metal usually induces a higher arousal level than classical music (although one habituates to this after a while). If you kids were used to heavy metal, who knows, they may have been worried/gotten to high arousal level/more aggressive if they heard Wagner.

I find that any music I play tends to influence my mood. Though, equally, my mood will often dictate the type of music I put on in the first place. For example, if I'm feeling a bit aggressive anyway, chances are that I'm going to listen to music with a more aggressive sound.
Just guessing here, maybe there's a sort of chicken and egg thing at work as well?

I also tend to share Xan's view. As long as parents educate their kids about the content, I don't really see the problem. IMO, it's better that kids are knowledgeable about sex, drugs, violence etc... I think it's a bit like movies and TV.. While I draw the line at extreme graphic violence, I feel that most of this material can be listened to or viewed by kids with parental supervision and education.
As far as the lyrics themselves go, to my untrained ear, I have enough trouble discerning what is being sung, it's all a blur to me. I'd assume this would be even more amplified for a young child; thus, I question if the lyrics would really make any difference at all to them.

Finally,
if you tell somebody under 16 that they can't do something, it is likely you'll only encourage them to do exactly that.

C Elegans wrote:@Daemon: One possible explanation for your observations may be that your kids are used to classical music, so they may be conditioned to this. Heavy metal usually induces a higher arousal level than classical music (although one habituates to this after a while). If you kids were used to heavy metal, who knows, they may have been worried/gotten to high arousal level/more aggressive if they heard Wagner.

You raise a very good point (as usual). While I have no way of knowing about the effects and reactions of my kids I have to ask about the effects on my ex-wife and I. I have listened to rock and metal for over 20 years and even played in 2 metal bands. My ex has listened for about 17 years. Any idea why I would suddenly become aggressive during that period and yet revert to my normal calm self once away from rock/metal music?

dragon wench wrote:Finally,
if you tell somebody under 16 that they can't do something, it is likely you'll only encourage them to do exactly that.

I have found that to be true for anyone regardless of age. Even my 3 year old son will directly do what I tell him not to. Instead I have to use redirection instead of saying "no" or "don't".

Imo

I listen to Metal and heavy rock every day. I find myself a very lovable and affectionate person. I mostly avoid fighting (except in rare cases :mischief: ) but there are a lot of metal songs that although they seem to be aggressive, the lyrics are actually talking about love. Disposable Icons' song Retina says "In fact I want to thank you, I want to love you" in the heaviest part of the song (though not easily understood). IMO I think it would be ok as long as the parents approve, to let children listen to Metel.

See, I listen to Metal and my wife listens to Rap. So, it is obvious that neither genre (in most cases) is that inoccent lyrics-wise. If I had a child and I let them listen to Metal I could just as easily talk to them and tell them that it is only music and that even if someone enjoys listening to something, doen't mean that it is right to do what is said. I would give examples, like movies and video games; they are for entertainment and do not represent real life.

IMO I think that it is the way a parent raises their child/children on how well behaved they are, not the music they listen to.

Rein wrote:IMO I think that it is the way a parent raises their child/children on how well behaved they are, not the music they listen to.

i totally agree with you

I have no problem with younger children listening to metal. I do, however, think that if I were a parent I wouldn't take them to metal concerts. 5 or 6 year olds as kipi mentioned in his first post, have no more business at a metal concert than they do a bar or a strip club. It's not the music I think is a bad environment, it's the shows. Note, I am not saying that the shows are bad, because I love them, but to me, it's just something that isn't really appropriated for very young children of that age.

@Kulnock...the "devil sign" is actually something that Dio picked up from his grandmother. It's supposed to ward off the evil eye, it's a gypsy type thing, I think maybe Romanian.

IMO, music is like food. What would you like to eat, kids?

Athena wrote:IMO, music is like food. What would you like to eat, kids?

What I say to that is, YUMMY! :laugh:


@bloodstalker: I agree, I think that showing kids something vulgar is probabily not healthy (up to a certain age). I would make sure that my kid understands that it is not the way you should act. I would say "Son/daughter, when you become a Metal entertainer then you can act that way if you want, but untill then leave it to the Metal bands." I would fully educate my children to like what THEY want but BEHAVE how they should. If you shelter your children, when they see things that have never been explained to them, they will act on impulse. If you teach your children about real life and some of the things that happen in real life, they IMO will be prepared and act accordingly.

Bloodstalker wrote: @Kulnock...the "devil sign" is actually something that Dio picked up from his grandmother. It's supposed to ward off the evil eye, it's a gypsy type thing, I think maybe Romanian.

I see I'm not the only Dio fan around here.


Anyways, Lordi isn't the worst for kids (As an example). Looking like mosters but playing that kind of "hard rock" will not affect one much IMO. Now, if you get deeper in the deepths of metal you'll find band like Gorgoroth and eventually Mayhem. IMHO you should stay away from at least Gorgoroth and Mayhem at that age (6-14), because those lyrics are bad, really bad (with the history of Mayhem being worse). There are probably bands with worse lyrics than those two, but I think I made my point clear.

I've seen children thinking they were satanists because of the music they listen to. I'd call it hobby-satanism

I don't think metal is bad for anyone, as long as they don't take the lyrics to seriously (when they sing about death and killing and what not). Don't take kids to a concert at that age however. The loudest band on earth plays concert at 129,5 dB, which is well over the threshold of pain. If anyone claims to be mentally affected from listening to metal, don't belive them

I think I agree with Xandax on this one, it's not worse than many other things.

I would rather have any kids of mine listen to something like Lordi than the average MTV hour. Whether music contains harmful values should be judged by the meaning of it, not by genre.

As for the satanist connection I find it very hard to see it as a serious problem. "I like satanism because I think it's cool"- people are usually very harmless beings that just look for subcultures to belong to, like many others do. It's far less destructive than being a christian neocon imo.