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I don't know the situation in the Netherlands, but it sounds similar to what we have here in Sweden.

I'm not much for the presence of an "elite" at all, but what have happened here is that issues of democracy have been seen to be contradictory to professionalism, which it IMO isn't.

I definitely think we should have a referendum about whether to sail to Washington or Beirut, but whether we should take left or right of the rock is the experienced sailor's decision.

When it comes to an elite as a guiding role model I'm not entirely sure about what you are after, I think there are a lot of role models to choose from should you like one.

ik911 wrote:But that's a about it. Well, and squids hugging brains... They're just silly.

Behind your rugged exterior I know you are just a sweet boy thinking about me IK. It's touching.

Here in Belgium, royalty has become merely a formality, aswell.
They have no real say in politics.

From what I gather your vision of the elite are rich rolemodels with the power

ik911 wrote:to set the norms and moral standards

Doesn't this mean that he/she can define right and wrong

ik911 wrote:and correct the people when they're doing wrong.

thus enforcing his/her vision on the nation?
That sounds a lot like a dictator to me.

Ah, but ofcourse, I forgot, the elite has to be a friend to the people.
But then again, Hitler had the support of his entire nation...

ik911 wrote:The Netherlands is flat. Not just the geography...

The nobility does not play it's dominating role anymore and politics has become a people's sport. Elite?? BAH! Go wash your mouth with soap for saying such a dirty word. There is just people... Everywhere. Normal people.

This is about politics and society and stuff like that, is it? If so what else is there? What else could there be?

People Politics

The people speak! They occupy our government, talking for and as the common man. Accessibility has become a trend in politics since Pim Fortuyn. The people wanted to understand politics, so the politicians stopped being high above the people. The proletariat asks, and it gets.

However, who is there to decide what is not only good for the people right now, but for the country and the future? Those are not the politicians that give the people whatever they want, those are the politicians that make decisions out of love, respect, attention and care for their nation and their people. Above the people, but not away from the people.

If the people want to understand politics and take an interest in it properly then there is nothing intrinsically wrong in giving them what they want. Politicians are no more likely to know how to make good long term decisions than everyone else. People practice deferred gratification all the time: they are not children. This seems a very patronising sentiment, to me

Iceberg ahead!

Holland has become a ship with only sailors. A captain would be pretentious and a nuisance. The captain of our ship bows to it's sailors and asks them how they want it. Well, 15 sailors combined should know more than one captain...

But who will decide which way to avoid the iceberg? Maybe vote for it? Left it is. They hit the iceberg. Those who voted against pull their hands off, because it wasn't their fault. And there the others go again, into another voting over what to do next... Jump ship or fix the ship? After 15 minutes of heated debating over the votes and arguments with the voters who said they should've gone right, the completely submerges and all the sailors die.

Sometimes, a clear decision is required about a certain pressing matter.

What is this? Hardly any political decisions need to be made quickly. In fact it is often a bad thing when they are (dangerous dogs act, anyone?). Most countries have some provision for taking emergency powers in case of war or disaster where there do need to be quick decisions. So this part does not seem to me to be anything but a self serving bit of rhetoric. What for?

Hail to the guide!

Who are our rolemodels? It's been on discussion here before... But this question has a lot to do with the position of the elite. High above the common man, they are the ones to guide us, be our rolemodels. They should lift us up by just being up there and showing us that the sky is open. Elite! Show us the path! By following eachother, we're going nowhere!

Aye. Bring on the folk who are good at everything. Let us follow them blindly. Let us listen to musicians' views on economics; and medical doctors views on architecture. That is bound to make things better

I'm elite, and so is my wife!

It is unclear at present who is the elite. The queen could be, but she has no power. The political power, as I said is in no man's or every man's hand. The cultural power is somewhere completely else and the economic power is in the blue corner, waiting for a red corner to appear, perhaps.

So, again, there's no telling who is in control. Who decides what's gonna happen?

I think you will find they are ones in the black helicopters, at this rate

Mind your own business!

Those with money and power can make a difference. In contemporary society though, that's not being done.

Oh? I must have missed that. I was busy last Tuesday. That must have happened then, I take it?

The social responsibility is no longer felt by those with money and power. Perhaps because they don't feel like they're the appointed people to do it, or perhaps because it is assumed that everyone can just take care of themselves. Either way, the lack of an elite to give the right example seems to be the underlying cause.

Certainly! Nobody starved when we had a proper class system. The utopia that was the 19th century. The rich were all philanthropists and that is why none of them are famous because of that quality. I wonder why we bothered bringing in any kind of social welfare provision at all. Must be because the elite died out?

It is the elite that can bring forth major changes. But when there is none, you're going to have to rely on the common man... And if someone isn't feeling any responsibility for the common man, it's the common man... And snails... And giraffes. But that's a about it. Well, and squids hugging brains... They're just silly.

I didn't notice that either Here was me thinking that ordinary people fought for the vote; and the elite gave it to them as one of their "major changes" without even being asked? You live and learn

The elite is in the position to set the norms and moral standards and correct the people when they're doing wrong. They will be the ones the common man watches.

Too true. It is well known that ordinary people have no moral values at all. They are always just leaving their kids to starve while they go out having parties in the street. They never look after their parents when they get old unless some member of the elite reminds them either. Good job the elite is there really.....oh wait. It isn't. Doh!

Elevate, guide, watch!

The people needs someone good to watch and I'm not talking about this good tv show. A rolemodel, a guide, a friend to people... But above. Managing the masses as it lives their own lives.

I am persuaded. Now who is going to choose this role model? Should be easy enough to reach a concensus....... No? Oh well

( All the above is food for discussion and petridish for thought. Written after an article in the newspaper. )

I suspect I have missed the whole point of this Ik. What is it about?

Edit: And I have messed up your colour scheme too, I see. Sorry about that

The urge to have a strong voice to follow, a shepard for a flock, is what that article is about. In times of undue stress, sometimes people wish that there were strong leaders--elites --to get things done and done right. Reminds me of Hamm and Clov, in a way...

Hardly any political decisions need to be made quickly.

I'll disagree with this only on one count. Sometimes, to show that the government is doing something, they may feel compelled to come to some kind of decision quickly concerning some usually low-level point (which has of course already been looked over, but maybe not as thoroughly as it should have been). Bad laws have resulted from this kind of thing, but it's really just a show of solidarity and power. And really, are all laws which have been painstakingly debated and researched good ones? I'm not saying it's a good thing, but a government may feel it needs to make a decision quickly to appease the people, especially if that government is in a sore spot at the moment. Sometimes, it's just comforting to see a strong government in action, knowing that things are getting done.