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What makes bards so great?

Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:16 pm
by krunchyfrogg
I've only really had CRPG experience with the baldurs gate series. I understand bards are a lot better in this game.

What makes them better?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:30 am
by DaveO
Re: Bards

The power of a bard is based on whether you have the Heart of Winter expansion pack or not.

Bards get a number of songs that benefit a party. I don't know exactly which ones, but a search in this forum should give you that information. I think Bards are worth it for their Lore ability to ID items which frees up a mage's level 1 spells(more chromatic orbs to cast).

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:14 am
by Endugu
Ill just add some points why I like bards in Icewind Dale (assuming you play with Heart Of Winter):

- Bard-only-items. Thorughout the game youll find some usefull items that your party cant use otherwise.

- Spellcasting. From what Ive seen here, most players use a bard as a replacement mage, i.e. give him the spells that the wizard already has.
However, I almost never include wizards in my party (personal preference) and found the bard to fill the niche of the wizard quite well. Granted, they dont get many spells per day (make sure the bard got a high intelligence), but theyll level faster than any wizard. Therefore, they can sometimes be even more powerfull than a wizard. For example take the spell Mordenkainen's Force Missiles: A bard at level 25 casts 7 missiles and needed 3,300,000xp to get there. A Mage would need even more xp than that (3,375,000) just to reach level 19, where shed cast only 5 missiles.
This goes for all spells with level-dependant effects (like chromatic orb...).
Of course, the mage makes up for this by beeing able to cast more spells per level per day, but still, I think many dismiss the bard to easily as a "support caster".
Also, with How installed, bards can learn up to level 8 spells, leaving only two level 9 spells that they cant learn.

- Bards gain ranks in pick pockets for free, meaning your thief doesnt have to invest ability points in it.

- Bards gets new songs at level 1, 3, 5, 7, 9 and 11. More info about them can be found in the HoW manual...let me just say that the 9th and 11th songs are very usefull.

- While only be able to put one proficiency point in a weapon category, they have no restrictions on which weapons they can use, making them ideal as a party member whom you can give the weapons that your fighter(s) didnt specialize in. Since the bard is not that tough (only 1d6 hp), shes probably more usefull as an archer or with ranged weapons (spear, twohanded sword, halberd), though with the right buffs( like "Mirror Image", "Stone Skin", "Haste", "Tenser's Transformation") a bard can be a very good front line fighter. Theyre practically mage/fighters rolled into one class.

- Since bards need a minimum of 15 charisma anyway, theyre also ideal diplomats and party leaders.

Of course, thats just my opinion. :)

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:01 pm
by krunchyfrogg
[QUOTE=DaveO]The power of a bard is based on whether you have the Heart of Winter expansion pack or not.

Bards get a number of songs that benefit a party. I don't know exactly which ones, but a search in this forum should give you that information. I think Bards are worth it for their Lore ability to ID items which frees up a mage's level 1 spells(more chromatic orbs to cast).[/QUOTE]

1) I do have HoW.
2)Is Chromatic Orb really better than Magic Missile?

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 1:02 pm
by krunchyfrogg
[QUOTE=Endugu]Ill just add some points why I like bards in Icewind Dale (assuming you play with Heart Of Winter):

- Bard-only-items. Thorughout the game youll find some usefull items that your party cant use otherwise.
[/QUOTE]
Are there stat requirements or alignment requirements for any of these items? I want to be able to use as many as possible (or at least the best ones).

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:30 pm
by Endugu
Cromatic Orb vs Magi Missile
It depends: In the beginning, memorizing magic missile over chromatic orb might be more useful, as the orb does only 1-4 points of damage on first level (rises to 2-16 at 7th level), while the missiles deal 2-5 damage. The missiles' damage maxes out at 9th level with 5 missiles doing 2-5 damage each.
After the caster reaches the fifth level, I generally prefer chromatic orb, since from then onward, it also has the chance to stun (blind, paralyze and even kill on higher levels) the enemy, making it very useful as e.g. an immobilizer or spellcaster disruptor - if the enemy fails its saving throw, which is of course not a given. :)

As for your second question, as far as I know there are seven instruments (all the bard items are instruments) and none of them have any requirements besides that the user must be a bard.

Hope this helps. Perhaps somebody who has played more mages and bards than me and is more into the mechanics of the game can give you more elaborate answers. :)

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 6:53 pm
by DaveO
Bard items in Icewind Dale

HoW character changes include the following:
* Paladins get new abilities:
Smite Evil - Column of holy light that does 1d6 + (1d6 / 3 levels) damage
to evil enemies.
Divine Courage - At 3rd level, immune to fear. (Also immune to disease)
Earlier Spell Access (at level 6 instead of 9)

* Rangers get new abilities:
Tracking - Ranger checks to see what monsters are in the area, and often
where the monsters are. +5% chance per level, +5% per point
of wisdom.
Earlier Spell Access (same)

* Druids get new abilities:
Druidic Shape Chance - now available at 5th level, gains a new for every
other level after that. Some HP healed with the change.
Elemental Form - At 11th level, the Druid can transform himself into a
Fire Elemental. At 13th, Earth elemental, at 15th a Water
elemental.
Immunity to Poison - At 9th level.
Timeless Body - At 15th level, no longer get tired.

* Thieves get new abilities:
Sneak Attack - An alternative to backstabbing (must be switched in the
options menu). Doesn't require being in shadows, merely that
you are behind or to the side of the enemy. The damage is an
extra 1d6 for every 4 levels of experience. Critical hits do
not double the sneak attack damage.
Evasion - At 7th level, thieves can evade effects (such as Fireball,
Lightning bolt, etc.), the thief can Save to completely evade
the spell (as opposed to Saving and getting half damage).
You cannot evade your own effects (such as a Mage/Thief
casting fireball right in front of himself).
Crippling Strike - At 5th level, thieves learn how to cripple their
opponents. Crippling only works WITH the Sneak Attack. A
successful cripple causes the victim to suffer a -1 to attack,
at 9th level -2 to attack and damage, at 13th level -3 to
attack and damage, etc. (every 4 levels another -1 to attack
and damage)

* Bards get new songs:
The Ballad of Three Heroes - Allies gain +1 to hit, damage and Saving.
The Tale of Curran Strongheart - 3rd level. Removes fear.
Tymora's Melody - 5th level. Allies get +1 luck, +3 saving throws, and
+10% to lore and thieving skills.
The Song of Kaudies - 7th level. 50% chance to evade sound-based
attacks.
The Siren's Yearning - 9th level. Chance of enemies becoming Enthralled
(unable to move for a minute or so, or until they take dmg).
War Chant of Sith - 11th level. Allies get +2 bonus to AC, +10% res. to
slashing, piercing, crushing and missile attacks, plus
regenerate 2 HP per round.

You'll encounter a number of bard only items in Icewind Dale:
The Merry Shorthorn (casts Bless once per day, Bards)
Owain's Lullabye (casts Cone of Cold, bards)
There's also a bard item you can buy from the mage shop which provides extra spells IIRC

I only have the Icewind Dale game, so I can't tell you what bard items are in HoW. For HoW, I'm sure there are even more bard items and benefits to having one. And by having HoW, you may still be able to download the free Trials of the Luremaster.

Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:01 pm
by krunchyfrogg
Cool, thanks guys! Awesome post DaveO!

What slot is an instrument placed in? A weapon slot?

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:23 pm
by DaveO
The instrument takes a hand slot, so you won't be able to use two handed weapons(Now that I think about this more, it may be the shield slot). However, you could always use the bard item for one round or more and switch back to a two handed weapon. I don't know how this affects extra spells. I know one place near the end of the game where cone of cold is useful. You may get more mileage out of it in certain encounters near the end game. BTW, I found Trials of the Luremaster at the following link: http://www.ausgamers.com/files/details/html/548.

Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:36 pm
by Aerich
The most important bard item (available in vanilla IWD as well as with HoW) is the Horn of Valhalla that can be bought in Kuldahar - from the storekeeper, not the blacksmith. It summons berserkers, who are excellent fodder/distractors. They can also kill low level enemies quite easily.

I seem to recall a harp in HoW that casts Heal once/day. However, it requires a 13 Wisdom.

It's not good to switch item slots when one of the items grants spells. You lose the extra spells when you remove it - the loss even applies to weapons (mage dagger, various cleric maces) if you merely switch weapon slots but leave the special weapon equipped. :(