GameBanshee Forums

Greetings All,

I am no novice to D&D or 3E. I have played (some more then others) IWD/IWD2, BG/BG2, PS:T, and NWN. I have never played PnP however, and most of the previous games I have played walk you through a lot of the process of character creation and advancement. ToEE does not hold your hand as I'm sure you all are aware. I am not good with the math or the rules, but I do have a formula that works really well in IWD II and I would like to translate it somewhat to ToEE. Please advise me in any way you can on making these characters more fit for this game.

The area I'm mostly unsure about is the feats, because a lot of the feats I took/am taking in IWD II don't work exactly the same or as effectively in ToEE, or atleast, thats what I'd assume.

Basically my normal (6 member) party would go like this:

Human Fighter 4/Paladin X (Diplomat)
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Longswords, Greatswords (?)

Dwarf Fighter 4/Barbarian X
Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Axes, Hammers

Human Cleric
Domains: Sun, Healing
Feats: Combat Casting, Spell Focus Abjuration (?)

Human Ranger 6/Rogue X (Archer Primary, Sneak Attack secondary)
Feats: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Dodge

Human Sorcerer (Main Bombardier)
Feats: Evoc 2, Combat Casting

Human Wizard (Backup caster, non-evoc spellcaster)
Feats: ?

So obviously I have to ditch one of these characters. The wizard is the character of this group I don’t really care too much about, I mean, he’s useful, but if I’m goona fill a character in with an NPC, the wizzie is the one I’m most apt to do so with. If I did this I would just get Spugnoir to fill that spot. However, looking at his stats, I know I could build a far superior wizard with 18int, better feats/ect. I’ve heard Elmo is great, so I could always supplement the Barbarian with him… but the pally/barb tag team is kinda special to me

What do you guys think?

Re: Tweaking

Hi, love your party setup for IWD2, much similar to my own setup.

All your characters can be made in TOEE, but with a lvl cap on 10 you have to choose your feats and skills carefully

Paladin :

if multiclassed, take Paladin or Fighter lvls first, you cant lvl as paladin if you lvl up as anything else after class is chosen( i.e F4/pal x Or Pal6/F x) Take 2 levels of fighter if you opt for Improved Critical feat, 4 if Wpn specialization is important. ( a +2 on dmg for only one Wpn class is poor imo )

There's no HOLY AVENGER in TOEE, but lots of nice Holy weapons.
Focus on one wpn type and stick with it, you can create powerful weapons with your spellcasters. CLEAVE works wonders in TOEE, consider GREAT CLEAVE as well ( 2 fireballs then into the fray )
Diplomacy alone will get you through dialogs in the game

Dwarf Fgth / Brb

same as above, 2 or 4 lvls of fighter depending on your style. ( i recommend 2 ) Brb gain dmg reduction at lvl 7 and extra rage at lvl 8 ( both useful ) I would choose Half orc and use Great axe or Greatswords ( or any two-handed wpns ) Dwarves are Godlike in IWD2 but it doesn't matter in TOEE, there aint many hostile spells.

Human Cleric

In TOEE try Elven Cleric ( elves can use long swords & bows) and choose WAR as one domain power for free Wpn Focus:long sword feat. high dex for ranged, rest is opt but high STR & CON make for good backup fighter/ alt. Tank. You don't need to turn undead ( not many and all are weak ) Choose Domains with useful abilities. Combat casting CAN be useful but i'd skip it if high CON and maxed Consentration skill. Spell focus Abjur. is a total waste imo, better to chose item creation feats and/or 1-2 Ftr feats

For ranged attacks PRECISE SHOT is a must-have(else you get -4 on all shots)

The most powerful items can only be made by lvl10 char. so you need more then one maker or else you wont have enough spare Xp to spend. Xp comes slow at high levels. Creating your own stuff is one of the fun things in TOEE, u wont find lots of power items.

Human Ranger/rouge

This is the one to skip, or replace one of the other Tanks. You dont need a rouge at all, or not many lvls of it. Sneak Attack is great but being able to hit at all is better. 1 level of rouge is great for social skills but if you include a Pal. he will do the talking.

Theres hardly any traps (only on a few locked chests) and the Knock spell opens all locks and also disables the trap if one is present. Anyone can sneak around due to Elven Boots and ELven Cloak and/or rings of invisibility ( + spells)

Elmo is a lvl 4 Ftr that lvls up as Ranger to 10 for F4/Rng6 and chooses Two-wpn style. He has A magic battle axe and you can make powerful weapons for him both normal and light wpns.
he can fill this slot, he's a good npc for good parties since he doesent loot (only a small amount of coins, nothing to worry about)

Human sorceror.

Powerful imo. i always have one as bombardier. spell focus isnt important, better to chose spell with no save and spell penetration for the heavy end fights. Ray of enfeeblement and acid arrow is great spells so i chose Point Blank shot and Precise Shot at lvl 1. (ranged touch attacks) 1-2 metamagic feats are also great (Empower spell, or Heighten spell,which lets you put Magic Missile in ALL your spell slots)

Sorcerors shouldnt make items due to poor spell selection and spell are prerecs for most items.

Consentrate on offensive magic. 2 spell focus feats increase DC for ONE type of spell by 2, 2nd lvl spell Eagle Splendor does the same for ALL your spells. Have a caster create a wand of it(20 charges)and you are ready for some action!!

Human Wizard

i always include one and NEVER specialize in schools. You dont need the extra spell slots, you'll need variasion. The mage will learn all spells then create scrolls & wands, wpns and armor for the rest of the party. Scrolls are cheap to make and give the mage lots of options in combat. where the sorceror has lots of castings but few spells the mage has the rest of the spells,ALL of them.
you can take a npc wizard such as SPUGNOIR ( hes good at high levels,adds nice feats and some nice spells) but youll make a far better mage on your own.

I recomend dodge and/or Combat expertise for mages(use Comb. Expertise at all times for a nice bonus to AC) You may take an elf or gnome but the extra feat at lvl1 is nice.

Try and experiment with the npc's , you may like some of them !

Finally i'll give you my favorite party Build

Human Rouge 1 / Fighter 9

takes Social skills at lvl1 (rouge)then Intimidade, Tumble and more social skills. FEATS : combat reflexes,power attack,cleave,exotic : bastard sword,wpn focus: bastard, wpn spes:bastard,gr wpn focus:bastard,great cleave and imptoved critical:bastard, combat expertise. Party TANK and SPOKESMAN.
+ best wpns (2 Artefacts) in the game are bastard swords.

WARNING : They are too powerful, might take some of the challenge away, but as you see i take wpn spes. for them since i've already wasted feats on them. If u dont like bastard sword go for improved critical for you wpn of choice

Dwarven Cleric 3 of Fharlaghn/Fighter 7

Domains: Luck & Travel.
Skills: Tumble,Survival,Spot,Listen,Heal,Use Magic Device
FEATS : Brew Potion,Craft Wndr Item,Power Att.,Cleave,Combat Reflex, wpn focus : warhammer(not crucial but i think its nice)Great cleave. Second TANK plus ITEMS & HEAL
Travel is a GREAT Domain for all chars.
You find some VERY good warhammers lategame

Elven Cleric 10 of Corellion Lathander

Domains: War & Good (combat bonus/heal bonus)
Skills: cons. spot, listen , heal spellcraft, tumble, useMagicDevice
FEATS: Combat expertise, improved trip, craft arms & armour, craft wand OR craft rod after CO8 patch ( adds more rods to create) Third TANK and HEALER plus ITEMS and RANGED
Uses the Holy Long Sword +1 (really +3)

Human Sorceror ( female ) 10

Skills : Bluff, cons, spellcraft, tumble, listen, spot
FEATS : Point blank shot, precise shot, heighten spell, empower spell, spell penetration
Focus on Offensive Magics all the way + some defense
1 : M.missile,Ray of Enfebl,Shield,Charm person,Burning hands
2: melfs acid arrow,tashas laughter,scare,mirror img.
3: Fireball,Lightning bolt,Haste
4: Ice Storm, Confusion
5: Cone of cold
With Heighten Spell Feat u can cast 30+ Magic missiles each day at high levels, hits everything !! Main BOMBARDIER
Enchants her own Holy Heavy Crossbow Of Fire,Of Frost + 3

Human Wizard 10
Skills : Appraise,consent, spellcraft ( maxed ) Tumble,spot, listen
FEATS: Combat expertise,combat casting,spell focus : enchantment (2), craft wand, craft arms&armour,craft wondr. item
Spells: Will learn all spells and focus on enchantment (Suggestion
& Charm monster are great) Always have 1 Teleport memorized for fast exit from the temple ( at lvl 9-10) Doesnt need to focus on any Wpn but enchants a nice + 3 crossbow for himself when not using wands or spells.

This Party has worked wonders for me, hope any of this will be of use to you.

Jatsu, your post totally bugged me out - I replied to it (or so I thought), and then my reply was gone - and then I realized you had the same exact thread on the Atari forum - and that's where I replied.

Tricksy hobbitses...

I’ve decided to listen to all the advice and drop the rogue. So instead I’d either make an elf-dex-fighter-archer, or make the cleric an elf of Correllon with archery feats. For Item Creation I was told the cleric would be a good character for that, I mean, in my experience wizards eat up a lot more feats the clerics do, what do you guys think? Of course, if I took archery feats with the cleric I might not be able to also take Item Creation. Hmmm.. what if I drop the Sorcerer, take a Druid for crafting, but also craft some with the wizard and cleric, the cleric being the archer as well…?

Below I organized all the viable options for each character. The pally and barb are pretty open and undecided, whereas with the cleric I’m weighing what to specialize in.

Paladin
Vanilla Fighter
Vanilla Paladin
Fighter 2/Paladin 8
Paladin 2/Fighter 8

Barbarian
Dwarf or Half-Orc?
Vanilla Fighter
Vanilla Barbarian
Fighter 2/Barbarian 8
Barbarian 2/Fighter 8

Fighter
Elf Archer

Cleric (Good, War)
Item Creation
Elf Correllon Archer Cleric

Sorcerer

Wizard

Druid

Asside from the various builds of each character, the possible parties look like this:

Paladin, Barbarian, Archer-Cleric, Druid, Wizard
Paladin, Barbarian, Archer-Cleric, Sorcerer, Wizard
Paladin, Barbarian, Archer-Fighter, Cleric, Druid + Spugnoir (only takes scrolls, takes Item Creation feats on his own)
Paladin, Barbarian, Archer-Fighter, Cleric, Sorcerer + Spugnoir

I’m totally ADDed out right now, got a million things running through my head, so if anyone has any advice or renditions on these combos and what not, please do tell!!

*bump*
I hate to do that but I could really use some more help with this!

Paladin, Barbarian, Archer-Fighter, Cleric, Sorcerer + Spugnoir

this is the best one in my opinion. instead of having a archer-fighter however, have a ranger and take the Archery feature at level 2


instead of doing a fighter 2/paladin 8 and a fighter 2/barbarian 8
or vice versa do this:


have a human paladin level 6 and figher 4. have him take power attack and cleave at level 1and do not get great cleave.

then have a Half-orc Barbarian level 6, fighter 4 take dodge at level 1 and get all the prerequisites for whirlwind attack

for both these classes (barbarian and paladin) they stop learning really special abilities at level 6 then just get more of wut they already got. the barb damage reduction is useless when u get that high level. with these two tanks u will be unstoppable in this game. make sure the barb is chaotic good so he can get the chaos sword.

I know that there are a LOT of people out there who feel that the rogue is a waste of space, but I have thoroughly enjoyed mine. He is an Elven Rogue at level 10 with a +3 longbow of frost. He has improved initiative to help him get sneak attacks on enemies while they are still flat footed at the beginning of the fight, and my sorcerer has improved invisibility to cast on him to keep the sneak attacks coming in longer battles. I average about 30 points of damage per shot (2 shots per round), and each hit takes 2 strength from the enemy that I hit (rogue special ability "Crippling Strike"). If the foe manages to survive that initial damage, then the crippling strike has them at -2 to hit and -2 to damage. He also rarely misses - his chance to hit is only 3 below a fighter at level 10. Throw some +6 gloves of Dexterity in and it continues to improve his chance to hit.

The lower hit die of a D6 can be a problem, but that is why he stays out of melee and just shoots the bad guys from a distance... I agree that a melee rogue is not the best option in this game, but a ranged attack rogue (especially an elf with free longbow proficiency) can be quite a helpful addition to a party. His/her lockpicking abilities can also save your sorcerer/wizard from needing to waste a spell slot on Knock. Just some thoughts.

BTW, my party (I don't like multiclassing):
Paladin lvl 10
Monk lvl 10 (In my opinion, the best tank in the game if the amulet of mighty fists wasn't bugged)
Cleric lvl 10
Rogue lvl 10
Sorcerer lvl 10

see i cant decide between my monk and my paladin which i like the best. but even with flurry of blows my monk does on average all together if he hits every time 30 damage. and my paladin does on average 40 damage with a masterwork greatsword. im gonna have my cleric add holy and lawful to it so it will be even better.

Actually, I agree with Keill Randor about rogues, although melee rogues can be quite good. I had a halfling rogue who dual weilded daggers (both +3 Frost Burst daggers) and by level 9 when he got four attacks per round, he'd devastate in battle. Just get him behind the enemy, fighter charges, wizards casts haste.....on the next round the enemy gets hit by five sneak attacks all at 1d4+6d6+5 (average of 30 per hit....150 per round). Not too shabby if you ask me. Plus, with great dexterity and whatever the best elven chain is called, along with good constitution, the rogue could stay through a round or two of heavy beating. Another option for rogues is to give them Combat Expertise and Improved Feint for an (almost) sure chance of sneak attacking every round.

Archers can get super powerful with an expensive enough bow and some time. Before magic bows and precise shot, you may as well give them a longsword and send them in hacking. Clerics can be great archers, but only for as long as their spells last (Divine Power and Divine Favor specifically).

All in all though, I think the absolute most powerful class is the bard.........hah......just kidding.

I like fighters. So what I do is create a paladin-like fighter (spokesperson skills), a ranger-like fighter (tracking feat, heal and search skills), a barbarian-like fighter (survival, spot, listen), then I throw in a monk (really just because I love their combat animations) and a wizard with rogue skills (open lock, etc.).

I arm my fighters with the most powerful melee weapons (greatsword, falchion, and greataxe), give 'em each a longbow, let my wizard (quarterstaff) cast spells and my monk does cool moves.

I stock up on healing potions and scrolls (avoiding the need for a cleric), and have my wizard craft awesome weapons as well as performing any stealth stuff.

Re: Greywulf

Have you taken this party to the Nodes?

I would love to Know how they managed there, especially against the Balor and in the Earth node.

Well, close to it - I've beaten the game twice, but I didn't have the monk then - I had a fourth fighter dual-wielding longswords once and the other time a fighter with a heavy flail.

But on the two aforementioned trips, I did defeat all the node bosses (the Hezrou always gave me the toughest time).

Note: I rest in dungeons to generate encounters and xp so that my parties have always been 10th level across the boards with maximally enchanted weapons, armor, and wondrous items.

Awesome !

Its seemed impossible to me at first to beat this game with just fighters, but i guess they pack quite a punch.

i've always been a fan of variety though...

Oh well, back to the Temple for more carnage

Onwards !!