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I'm pretty new to NWN (just played through NWN and SoU for the first time). I have to wait for HotU till the end of March, but I'm very interested in the Weapon Master prestige class, and because I feel I won't be playing NWN too many times, I've come up with a plan. Basically, it's to play both NWN and SoU and make lvl 20, getting all the WM requirements along the way, as well as as many requirements as possible for the amazing HotU feats. My questions for now are as follows:

1. Do you think this would work? What I mean is, assuming I'm going to be playing a straight fighter, will I be wasting too many feats after taking all the necessary ones (going to lvl 20 without HotU, the ultimate goal is lvl 40 one way or another with the second expansion)?

EDIT: It's late and I might not be clear enough. My question is, seeing as I would need a str of 25, con of 21 and dex of 23, I will need to use several Great Stat (Str, Dex, Con) feats. They're all available past lvl 21, but would I be able to get enough of them along with the epic feats that these numbers are required for (if memory serves, it's Improved Whirlwind Attack, Overwhelming Critical, Epic Prowess, Epic Damage Reduction and Epic Weapon Focus/Specialisation).

2. How exactly do prestige classes work? Haven't had the time (or will) to try it out so far. What happens when you gain lvl 10 in a prestige class? Is that it and you continue with regular classes?

1.)

I severly doubt you will be able to get the stats via play through the single player campagins, that you are aiming for. They are very very high and would likely requiere quite a number of epic feats to accomplish, so I don't think you can attain them within the game.
The level cap of HotU is level 40 - but you don't reach level 40 based on the game as is. You need to play through several times with the same character to get to level 40.
Many of thoese feats you mention are made for multiplayer and such campaign.

And they aren't neasecary to take the weapon master prestige class. But there are however some HotU specific feats that are nesecary, so ........
while it of couse is possible to play through NwN+SoU with a pure fighter - that will likely not bring you to level 20 either and you will not have access to the neacesary feats, I don't recommend it.
This is because feats like Whirlwind attack, expertise and such can't be taken in the NwN+SoU withouth HotU, so you will still need to level some fighter levels in HotU.

Hmmm - hope this made some sence, otherwise - I'll try to be more clear.


2.)
For prestige classes - you can only go to level 10 in that class, untill you have reached level 10 in another (combination) of classes.
That means at level 20, you can max have 10 class levels in your prestige class. After level 20 (HotU) you can then level in your prestige class again as you level as an "Epic character"
(levels above 20 is epic)


Hopes some of this helps.

Thanks. It does help, but I still need to know more. There's only one HotU-exclusive skill and one feat needed for the WM, and that's 4 ranks in intimidate and Whirlwind Attack (both achieved at lvl 20 in the mentioned case, if I end NWN + SoU at lvl 19, assuming Intimidate is considered a class skill for a Fighter), so no biggie. Also, I played through NWN alone with a pure fighter and achieved lvl 16, so I think three or four levels in SoU are no sweat - especially with the huge exp bonuses for some very silly quests (like the wine one in the Ao Encampment). And I'm willing to play through some more times, if need be.

Anyway, I need to know this. What's the maximum level for a prestige class, HotU included? Is it 20 or is there no cap at all? Are there extra prestige-class only bonuses past lvl 10 in a prestige class (otherwise it would be stupid to go above lvl 10)?What happens to feats when you level up in a prestige class? Do you get the same progression as your base class?

Also, seeing as I'll be getting HotU (and therefore the manual) in late March, could someone tell me how many feats are there to be gained by a Fighter at levels 20 through 40? There are 19 of them in NWN and SoU (for a human fighter, including the extra feat you get at level 1). I'm actually trying to not go for proper power gaming, but get some role playing in there (but it's all hush-hush for now; not telling anything) and I need this info to be able to determine whether it will work or whether I have to wait till I get HotU.

EDIT
I've done some research, which might make life easier for those who would answer my questions. I'm talking about this specific build I have in mind, of course, and the before mentioned situation where I have no HotU at the moment.

NWN+SoU Feats required
Ambidexterity, Cleave, Improved Cleave, Dodge, Expertise, Improved Critical, Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Proficiency (exotic), Weapon Focus (exotic), Weapon Specialisation (exotic), Spring Attack, Power Attack

This is 13 in total, which is easily done and leaves 5 feats to be taken at will (saving throw related ones, for example) until lvl 19.

My stats after NWN + SoU would be 20,15,14,8,14,8 at level 19.

HotU Feats required
Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical, Epic Prowess, Whirlwind Attack, Improved Whirlwind Attack.

I am guessing there should be about 15 feats available from lvl 20 to lvl 40 (need info). In order to get all of the above, I'd need a strength of 25 and dexterity of 23. Using the regular stat bonuses until and including level 32, my stats would become 23,16,14,8,14,8. That means I'd need two Great Strengths and seven Great Dexterities, which seems doable. I'd pump Constituition at levels 36 and 40, but that's just cosmetic. Anyhow, it would leave me with 5 feats to be taken, and five is just the amount I need.

Is it doable? Or should I wait for HotU and play through the whole game then (I know it would probably be slightly better, even only for Whirlwind Attack earlier, but this is a what if question, not a what's better question).

My paladin played through NwN + SoU were L18 if I recall right at the start of HotU.

The level cap is 40 - but that you will not get unless you play through many times - my character ended around L28 as max (and I didn't miss much in form of XP/Quests), and I doubt you should calculate with much more (again unless you plan to play through multiple times with the same character).
I've said this often - planning a character for it should look at level 40 is not a good way, imo - because you will not reach 40 easily.

Futhermore - the only restrcition I know of (besides the 40 cap) is that you can't attain more then 10 levels in a prestige class before going epic.
(Which means for instance, at Level 20 you need to be maximum level 10 <something> / level 10 <prestige class> )

I've got the time and the will, so it's going to be hard to stop me. I realize I should wait for HotU and start all this then, but it's going to be a long time, plus a lvl 20 fighter before any WM levels makes more sense from a role-playing point of view in this case. I still don't have two of the most important questions answered, however.

1. Suppose I already am a level 10 Fighter/lvl 10 Weaponmaster, and I want to go epic, continuing my Weaponmaster career. How does it work? Can I be a lvl 10 Fighter/lvl 30 WM in the end, or is it more like 20/20?

Also, suppose my character becomes a lvl 20 fighter. I would then gain another 10 leves in WM, and what happens later? Can I continue gaining levels as a WM (and what are the bonuses past lvl 10 in any prestige classes)?

2. I really need to know the amount of feats at levels 21-40 for a pure fighter and I need to know how the WM prestige class affects feat progression.

Don't know anything against going 10 fighter/30 WM ...
the requierment I've seen in the documentation is that you can't level to 11 in prestige class before level 20 (that is for instance the 10/10 split).

Thanks for the info. I think I'll just wait until I get HotU after all (the 10/30 variant would be very sweet, given the amount of feats wouldn't suffer too much). Oh well, off to gaining lvl 20 with my Fighter and Sorceress and playing through the game with a Rogue/Shadowdancer to see how things work with prestige classes.

If anyone could supply info on the unaswered questions of mine, however, I'd be obliged.

As for the number of feats - I had to look that one up.

Any epic class gets a feat every 3rd level starting from 21 (21, 24, 27 etc).

Futhermore the epic WM should gain a bonus feat every 3 levels also.

This should - after my math mean that an epic WM would gain 2 feats every 3 level.

I've not played a WM so I don't know if it is correct, however that is what the manual says.

Damn. That makes it impossible for the 20Ftr/20WM build without HotU from the start. I'm going to have to do some more calculating if what I want is doable at all, but if it is, then it will be just barely. Thanks.

theoretically, a Fighter(20)/WM(20) wihtout HOTU from the start is possible. U can simply take all the fighter levels u cant first, then go more the WM lvls when it becomes available.

but i question the need for so many WM lvls. yes, u do gain a +1 attack every 5 levels, but iwonder is taking some other class levels like the Champion of Torm will not be better (for non-evil chars) for the divine wrath ability, extra +1 too all saves every 2 levels, not to mention that with some Cha adding items, the lay on hands can heal about 25% HP* with 10+ CoT lvls. I see no reason for taking fighter lvls, when CoT is availble, except for the fighter only feats, or that u already have 3 classes for the char.

* 25% is a rough number for those that do not try to get a max HP roll per level up. it is applicable to those who are content with a 8 HP from a 1d0 roll during lvl up. and it also requires that u swap the Cha giving items, then use LOH.

ps. i'm not sure if swapping Cha items work, but it should...

Unacceptable because of role playing reasons. Has to be a Fighter/WM and nothing else. The only question is balance between the two.

well, the WM class really has quite a little going for it to consider, since you get feats at 3 lvl intervals and a +1 To Hit bonus per 5 lvls. The fighter on the other hand gains a feat every other lvl, which is means that you will be sacrificing +2 To Hit with 2 feats. Considering that that at HOTU, I think the restriction of max bonus from attribute is no longer limited to 10, you might want all the extra points in Str, Con, SR etc..

I'd go for fighter(x)/WM(7), taking WM as soon as you can (though in your case, you might opt to take more fighter levels first) then return to fighter lvls after gaining the +2 threat range. Of course, it will be much better to take the 7 lvls of WM before your char lvl beats 20, so you can take most avantage of the epic feats (that should be) available to you on your fighter lvls when you become fighter(15)/WM(7). I'd choose to take the extra feat over the +1 To Hit. Sure, I might not hit as often, but I'm better elsewhere and as an overall. Especially valuable when you begin to take Energy Resistance making you quite a pain when you're shrugging off 20-30 dmg from fireballs etc, or Epic Thoughness for 200 extra HP.

That's my point of view.. yours may be different. and in the original HOTU campaign, u can barely hit 30.. so the difference is little unless you mean for this character to go far beyond that into other modules and peak a 40.

Thanks for the input. I'm doing some counting right now and it's not looking good. Or actually it is, but it will be impossible to achieve what I want without playing with HotU from the start. Not a bad thing, really, but I have to wait another month. The following question is very important and will determine whether I can succeed with HotU, or not even then.

1) I know for a fact that a Fighter gains 11 feats between level 1 and 10, and then another 8 feats between levels 11-20. What I would really like to know is what happens after I become a Ftr 10/WM 10, and then continue gaining Fighter levels. Between levels 21-30, will my feats be counted as if it was an 11-20 Fighter (8 feats) or as if it was a 20+ Fighter (5 feats)?

In the second case, it will be impossible to do what I have set out to do, and by lack of one feat nonetheless

2) Forgive the ignorance (the lack of HotU probably explains it), but seeing as a Fighter 10/WM 10 (or any other combo, but let's stick to this) is considered a lvl 20 character, does this work for the purposes of epic feats as well (i.e. will I be able to gain epic feats once I make, say Ftr 11/WM 10)?

3)Are Great attribute feats, like Great Strength or Great Dexterity, considered epic?

Thanks again for helping me out. I've separated the questions so it's easier for you to answer (and believe me, these three will determine the course of my would-be build).

a fighter(10)/WM(10) is considered an epic character, but you are neither an epic fighter, nor an epic WM.

so you will be able to have access to epic feats like Great Attr. (Q3?: yes, they are epic feats) when you level up, as you are already past level 20. note that this may not be a fighter feat, and you (might) get this only on character levels divisible by 3.

as for whether you can take epic feats at fighter(11)/WM(10) (Q2?) i'm not too sure there, as this is a little confusing, n i'm not sure how NWN handed it. technically, you can since you are an epic character, but you are NOT an epic fighter and hence, gaining a "fighter bonus feat" may not make epic feats eligible to you. the former is what i think would (and should) happen, but i never noticed.. Xandax?? anyone??

and a fighter gets a "fighter bonus feat" at every even numbered level regardless. so i don't see how you can get 8 feats between lvls 11-20. you will still get 5 only. unless you are factoring in the character feats which is available every 3 levels as well. to make things clear here are some of the rules in play:

- all character gets a feat at level 1,3 and all character levels divisible by 3 from here on after.
- all fighters get a "fighter bonus feat" (meaning that the feat list is slightly less than the full feat list available to you when you gain a character feat)

hence, between lvls 11-20, you gain character feats at 12,15,18 (3 in total) and fighter feats at 12,14,16,18,20 (5) in total for your 8 feats within these levels.

between lvls 21-30, you gain character feats at 21,24,27,30 (4 in total) and fighter feats at 22,24,26,28,30 (5) in total for a total of 9 feats within these levels.

hope this clears some things...

PS: with ref to my suggestion of taking fighter lvls over WM lvls beyond the "formative" levels (i hope you get what i'm trying to say.. ) just take fighter levels, as there is a feat that allows you to +1 to attacks (which i believe can be taken repeatedly for up to 10 times) meaning that if you take 2 of these feats when taking 10 fighter levels, and 3 others... you will end up being exactly as you would taking 10 WM lvls spending the 3 bonus feats the same way.

Great. Things might just work out then. Thanks I've already started playing, because even if I can't pass NWN + SoU without HotU at lvl 20 because of some wasted feats, I can still go up to level 9 (or 10, but without levelling up there). Hah. Just my calculations. Thanks again, anyhow.

After some more research, I've come up with two possible builds. The obvious one, like you stated, is Ftr(33)/WM(7), with the WM available as early as Ftr(8)/WM(1). And this is the one I'm going to use unless...

Let's consider for a moment a Ftr(9)/WM(31). The nine levels of fighter are needed for all the prerequisites (given I'll be dual-wielding - and this is certain) plus Weapon Specialization (unavailable to a WM). Now:

1) The WM gains 2 feats every 3 levels (1 character feat and 1 bonus feat), and the Fighter gains a character feat every 3 levels and a bonus feat every two levels. Counting 24 levels (33-9=24, the difference between the first build and this one), I lose only 4 feats (Ftr 20 overall, WM 16 overall).

2) However, over those 24 levels, I also gain +4 to hit. Not a big deal, but if I were, like you suggested, going to compensate for this with a Fighter taking Epic Prowess, I would in fact have no advantage over the WM considering feats. So yes, I will end up exactly the same, which means it doesn't really matter which class I take. The only thing the WM doesn't have access to that might be of some interest to me would be the epic Energy Resistance feats, but I probably wouldn't be taking them anyway.

Also, if the Weapon Master gets a +1 to base attack bonus every level like the Fighter, there is but one thing standing between me and the Ftr(10)/WM(30) build, which would be slightly more enjoyable (from a role playing point of view, not a power gaming one, in which it wouldn't matter). The question is this:

There's this little nifty feat called Epic Weapon Specialisation, which I mentioned earlier, and I absolutely must have it. Do I need to be an epic Fighter (meaning 21+ levels in the Fighter class), or is it enough that I would be an epic character with the total of levels over 21 (and take an extra level of fighter then to take that one feat?

If you don't know the answer for sure (which you probably don't, it's not the easiest question), but own HotU, please help me out by doing some DebugMode abusing to quickly level up to Ftr9/WM11 (Fighter first, getting the prerequisites for the WM as well Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialisation; remember the 4 ranks in Intimidate, a Dex and Int of 13+, and taking Whirlwind Attack at level 9 of Fighter), then level up once as a WM and get Epic Weapon Focus. And then, all you have left to do is level up one final time, take a level of fighter (making your character a Ftr(10)/WM(12), and tell me whether Epic Weapon Specialisation is available to you at that point.

PS. I fully realise I can wait till I get HotU to do this myself (and I will if no one helps me, of course, but it's another damn month ). However, thinking about this character is literally driving me nuts. I will be very greatful if anyone helps me out with this. This is also the last question I need to ask about this particular problem of mine (no more, I promise ).

it be true, that i do not knwo the answer to that question. looking at the feats description from gamebanshee, it merely states 21st leve, E wpn focus, n wpn spc. in the chosen wpn.

this seems to imply that you only need 1 fighter level to make wpn spc accessible.

however, i cannot be sure if NWN did implement it this way, or that the actual rules are mean to be this way (obviously the former is of more importance)

let me introduce you to www.forums.bioware.com and go to NWN - General Discussion and search for the answer there.

Great. Found it there. It's enough to be an epic character and take one more level of Fighter (correctly timed, i.e. to get a Fighter bonus feat) to be able to take Epic Weapon Specialization. Thanks

thank you for letting me know. so u MUST take a fighter level at character level 21+?

Well, it's a Fighter-only feat, so yes, you must take one extra level of Fighter when you want to get Epic Weapon Specialization. The 21+ mentioned in the requirements is for total character level, not a single class level.

As far as my choice is concerned, I'm afraid I'll have to choose one because of lack of time to play both builds. The choice itself, however, is much easier now, after some long calculations. Both builds are virtually the same (same feats, ability scores, etc.), but...

Fighter 33 / Weapon Master 7
Achieves the goal at character level 35. That leaves me with 4 epic feats to be taken (2 normal, 2 bonus), 2 extra regular feats sometime down the road and 2 free ability points (lvl 36 and 40).

Fighter 10 / Weapon Master 30
Achieves the goal at character level 37. That leaves me with 2 epic feats to be taken (1 normal, 1 bonus) and 1 free ability point (lvl 40), but also gives me +5 to attack.

If I were to take Epic Prowess once with the first build, and three Damage Reductions, I would have -4 to attack compared to the other build and a reduction of 9/-. Also, I'd have slightly better saving throws (2 extra regular feats) and slightly more damage (+2 str) or hitpoints (+2 con). If I took two damage reductions with the second build, I'd have 6/- but +4 to attack.

Question is, how big is +4 (+5) to attack? Granted I'll be having 6 attacks per round (4 main hand, 2 off hand), perhaps 7 (when haster, but not sure here), is the +4(+5) a big factor?

EDIT: Holy crap, just read up some more on the NWN forums and guess what? Past level 10, a Weapon Master gains +1 to attack every three levels, not five. That's another +4 extra in the second build, meaning an overall of +8(+9) over the Fighter!