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We got a little side-tracked in the "What follows Death" thread. Since Fable already hinted at starting a separate thread, I thought I'd do so here. Underneath, you'll find some extracts from the thread mentioned. I left out certain parts I felt weren't related to this topic. You can always read the full text here.

What follows Death?

Originally posted by EMINEM
Judgment for the way you lived your life on earth. Definitely not something to look forward to (which might explain why so many refuse to even contemplate the notion), but I think being held accountable for what you've done and what you've failed to do, makes perfect sense given that good and evil, right and wrong exist, and we have freedom to choose between the two. If there is no form of judgment that takes place after you die, it makes no difference whether you lived like a saint or a devil.

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
I'm not so sure that good and evil, right and wrong do exist. It's all a matter of perspective. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by exterminating the Jews. Dubyah doubtless thinks he's doing the right thing in his policies. Hence it doesn't really make a difference how you lived your life except in how you will be remembered.
This is just my opinion, you understand, based upon my own experiences and observations.

Just out of curiousity, why is judgement a thing to be feared? Accepting a dual notion of good and evil, presumably if you live your life more good than evil you'll be fine come judgement.

Originally posted by Eerhardt

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Just out of curiousity, why is judgement a thing to be feared? Accepting a dual notion of good and evil, presumably if you live your life more good than evil you'll be fine come judgement.

Hence the problem. I don't know how Eminem feels about this, but I am lead to believe that good deeds weigh more heavily than evil ones. If you take into account every time you had a big argument, hurt somebody, didn't do enough to help your fellow man,... it would be very hard to keep balance, without all the good things weighing more. The Bible also states that every good deed you do will be rewarded 10-fold. I interpret this that a good deed outweighs an evil one (not necessarily by 10 times, but you get the meaning).

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Let's say that it's all based on intent, then. I'm sure there's some line in the bible that says something along the lines of it's the thought that counts, or somesuch.
In that case it seems to me that the number of "good" deeds would in many cases outweigh the number of "bad" deeds, and hence come judgement or whatever (I disagree with the notion of judgement too, but that's neither here nor there) many people will just cruise on through to their haloes and wings.

Originally posted by Beldin

Originally posted by EMINEM
Judgment for the way you lived your life on earth. Definitely not something to look forward to (which might explain why so many refuse to even contemplate the notion), but I think being held accountable for what you've done and what you've failed to do, makes perfect sense given that good and evil, right and wrong exist, and we have freedom to choose between the two. If there is no form of judgment that takes place after you die, it makes no difference whether you lived like a saint or a devil.

@Eminem: Just a question - do you (personally) really believe that your god is just some kind of "angry old man" who passes relentless judgement on you ? I seems kind of an "low" occupation for such a supreme being.
Aren't you doing your god injustice by believing he is nothing but a clerk, keeping track of how many lollies you stole as a kid ?

I'm not really a believer, but IF I try to imagine "my" god I just can't bring myself to see him as an accountant - if he (or she) is really a surpreme being which created us he's BOUND to forgive us - after all HE made the world what it is today, and therefore we can't be held responsible for HIS mess...

Honestly - an ALL-POWERFUL god has by definition ALSO to be an ALL-FORGIVING god. Otherwise he'd be nothing less than a PUNISHER, a HEADSMAN - an ANGRY god who hurls thunderbolts at mortals....a choleric (sp?) in other words, and I really can't imagine a choleric god..

Originally posted by Eerhardt

Originally posted by Beldin
...if he (or she) is really a surpreme being which created us he's BOUND to forgive us - after all HE made the world what it is today, and therefore we can't be held responsible for HIS mess...

Sorry for budging in, Beldin, but I'd like to answer to this too. The responsibility of man and God is a topic that has been discussed over centuries. Look at it this way: when God created man according to Christian Religion (I'm not debating the creation of man as such right now), he could have done so in 2 ways. Either he gave man no free will and turned him into a mindless puppet for worshipping Him/Her, òr he gave man a free will to accept or reject His/Her own existence and consequently carry the responsibility for his own actions. Then there's the subject of "why doesn't God intervene when things go wrong if He/She is supposed to be all-powerful?". Could man really have free will, if God would just intervene every time he did something "wrong" in the eyes of God? If he had God to guide him by his hand?

Originally posted by Beldin
Honestly - an ALL-POWERFUL god has by definition ALSO to be an ALL-FORGIVING god. Otherwise he'd be nothing less than a PUNISHER, a HEADSMAN - an ANGRY god who hurls thunderbolts at mortals....a choleric (sp?) in other words, and I really can't imagine a choleric god..

Good point. We do believe God is all-forgiving. However, Christian doctrine does require you to feel remorse, in order to be forgiven. I know it's a delicate subject since it may seem like you can "get away with anything" this way, which obviously shouldn't be possible. But if you feel you "got away with it", would you feel genuine remorse? I wanted to clarify this from my personal, Christian POV. No worries (copyright@Beldin),
E.

Originally posted by Beldin

Originally posted by Eerhardt
Good point. We do believe God is all-forgiving. However, Christian doctrine does require you to feel remorse, in order to be forgiven. I know it's a delicate subject since it may seem like you can "get away with anything" this way, which obviously shouldn't be possible. But if you feel you "got away with it", would you feel genuine remorse? I wanted to clarify this from my personal, Christian POV. No worries (copyright@Beldin),
E.

No problem Eerhardt.... I like a good discussion...

What I was trying to say is that anyone who sees god as a "surpreme court" is in my POV belittling god... just because IF god is unforgiving he wouldn't be better than any of us. He would be - well - HUMAN.

Another thing that keeps nagging me is -if I choose NOT to feel remorse - and god casts me into hell - for eternal torment - wouldn't he thus violate his own commandments ? You know - like in "Thou shallt love each other" ? So he wouldn't be better than I am...

On a lighter note:
And what if I'm a believer in reincarnation... (even if I'was christianed and paid lip service in his churches) ...I wouldn't fall into his jurisdiction then...he can't pass judgement over me if I'm not accepting this court.....but that's just a joke of course....

Originally posted by Eerhardt
Thanks mate - first of all, if Fable feels we're getting side-tracked here, he can just PM me, and I'll save our posts to post in another thread, before deleting them .

Ok, I have already admitted that in Christian religion God is not the unforgiving bastard some think Him/Her to be

If you choose NOT to feel remorse, I suppose it would depend on the severity and the amount of acts you choose not to feel remorse about. I really can't say how many things you can do wrong without feeling remorse, before being sent to Hell (another abstract concept to me). Unlike another member of the forum, I have no intent of claiming to be God and passing judgement in His/Her name .

Even though it pains God, if you're incorrible God *will* send you to Hell or the purgatory, which is not to say that God doesn't love you. Even a loving father/mother punishes his/her children.

Then, on a last note, people raised by parents who don't believe in God can not be punished by God for not believing in Him/Her. I don't even think God will punish you for willfully rejecting to believe in Him/Her when you try to live your life in spirit of his will. Of course, this is where opinions will differ, even within Christianity itself (e.g. fundamentalists may believe you go to Hell for not believing in God)
E.

Originally posted by Beldin

Originally posted by Eerhardt
Even a loving father/mother punishes his/her children.
E.

BUT - and that's the point - a parent doesn't punish his child with eternal and painful torment.... but I'm just picking words now...

I'll wait for M&M's answer for somethng more elaborate....I don't want to repeat myself...

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
The way I see it, is if God truly is forgiving, then even if you choose to live according to your own morals it shouldn't be a problem, so long as those values are 'good', as in they don't cause pain or trouble for other people.
The Dalai Lama summed it up when he said people should just try to 'live well, and respect others' (IIRC).

Originally posted by EMINEM

Originally posted by Beldin
BUT - and that's the point - a parent doesn't punish his child with eternal and painful torment.... but I'm just picking words now...

I'll wait for M&M's answer for somethng more elaborate....I don't want to repeat myself...

My answer? Go read the Bible. It's all there in black and white.

Originally posted by EMINEM

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
I'm not so sure that good and evil, right and wrong do exist. It's all a matter of perspective. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing by exterminating the Jews. Dubyah doubtless thinks he's doing the right thing in his policies. Hence it doesn't really make a difference how you lived your life except in how you will be remembered.
This is just my opinion, you understand, based upon my own experiences and observations.

Just out of curiousity, why is judgement a thing to be feared? Accepting a dual notion of good and evil, presumably if you live your life more good than evil you'll be fine come judgement.

Hitler was doing the right thing by exterminating the Jews? Pardon my bluntness, but what planet are you from? I don't care what perspective you adhere to, but the murder of innocent people is evil and wrong no matter how convinced you are that it's not.

Originally posted by EMINEM

Originally posted by Beldin
@Eminem: Just a question - do you (personally) really believe that your god is just some kind of "angry old man" who passes relentless judgement on you ? I seems kind of an "low" occupation for such a supreme being.
Aren't you doing your god injustice by believing he is nothing but a clerk, keeping track of how many lollies you stole as a kid ?

I'm not really a believer, but IF I try to imagine "my" god I just can't bring myself to see him as an accountant - if he (or she) is really a surpreme being which created us he's BOUND to forgive us - after all HE made the world what it is today, and therefore we can't be held responsible for HIS mess...

Honestly - an ALL-POWERFUL god has by definition ALSO to be an ALL-FORGIVING god. Otherwise he'd be nothing less than a PUNISHER, a HEADSMAN - an ANGRY god who hurls thunderbolts at mortals....a choleric (sp?) in other words, and I really can't imagine a choleric god..

No worries,

Beldin

Your understanding of the Christian God, is, frankly, elementary, and very similar to that of the ancient Greeks and Romans. Yahweh is NOT Zeus. Jesus is NOT Hermes. He's unimaginably more complicated than anything man can ever hope to conceive.
Instead of trying to make God in YOUR image of what he should be, examine what he and his prophets have to say about him.

Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper

Originally posted by EMINEM
Hitler was doing the right thing by exterminating the Jews? Pardon my bluntness, but what planet are you from? I don't care what perspective you adhere to, but the murder of innocent people is evil and wrong no matter how convinced you are that it's not.

Please read my post again, I quite specifically stated he thought he was doing the right thing.
I'm reasonably certain I'm from Earth, but then again you and I seem to be living on two different worlds so maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe you are.
Perspective again, see?

BTW, how long ago did you move to America and how long have you been learning english for?

EDIT-I asked about EMINEM's english in the interests of ensuring a clear understanding of one another's posts, to avoid another misunderstanding of the same type as before. If english is his native language and he simply misunderstood my original "point of view" post then I apologize most deeply to him for my mistake.

Well whilst I won't be contributing to this discussion, I will be keeping an interest in it, provided it doesn't get closed.

Regrettably I can't stay and participate in what promises to be such an interesting discussion (good call @Eerhardt!) as I'm away from tonight onwards until next Saturday.
Just thought you might like to know that I've clarified my last post a little, @Eerhardt.

Originally posted by EMINEM:
My answer? Go read the Bible. It's all there in black and white.

[joke mode=on]

But Eminem - where's your missionary spirit ? (J/k) .

[joke mode=off]

As a matter of fact I haven't read the whole bible and have no intention of doing that - except reading up on the parts which are important or interesting at any given moment - be it for a discussion or because I'm looking up some reference.

I was "waiting for M&M's answer" because I know that your knowledge on the topic of christianity exceeds mine, and I value your input - even if I don't often agree with your POV. It might seem strange for some people on this planet, but I LIKE to hear what other people have to say. It helps me to learn more about "the world" in which we are living.

In fact - I was hoping for you to point me in the right direction WHERE to search for references to "our image of god" and if we are meant to see him/her as a "punisher" who "torments his children" or not.

Regards,

Beldin

Ok, Ode, I've added your comment since you have the right to respond to Eminem's remark. Before this thread is closed and Fable's thread ends up getting side-tracked again , I'd like to ask everyone not to attack other members personally. You are always entitled to a reply and can state your disagreement with other members' views, but there is no need to attack them personally. I know what it's like to have somebody make a sarcastic remark, plainly provoking a conflict and the need to get even, but I'm asking you to be the better man/woman and ignore it. [size=0]I'll go get some more shock treatment for my Mod Schizophrenia now[/size]

Beldin: keeping it as always -

Most references to God as a Punisher are from the Old Testament (e.g. punishing Adam and Eve in Genesis; destroying Sodom and Gomorra), while the New Testament (the Life of Christ ) preaches God as a loving father.

E.

Originally posted by Eerhardt

Beldin: keeping it as always -

I'll try my best. Just tell me if I'm getting out of my depth .

The "mod hat" suits you.... should I have a word with Buck ?

No worries,

Beldin

Nah, too much crap to put up with - seriously, I don't have the time and the mods are doing a great job as it is. It may not always seem that way when we're getting them drunk and (occasionally) make fun of them, but I'm sure we appreciate the work they do .


The Great Flood is an example of God being both a punisher and being merciful. He let Noah build the ark, thus saving him, for living a good life and punished those who had had turned on their fellow man and lived a life of sin and murder by drowning them. Even then, God felt sorry for those who had drowned and let the rainbow become a symbol for the pact he made with Noah that he would never flood the earth again.

I myself am interested where the image of the "long-bearded white-haired father figure" originated from. Did the Catholic Church portray him this way? If so, when did it first do so? Was it first conceived in the New Testament, with Jesus referring to God as his Father?
EDIT - found a thread treating this subject in the gender/race of God

Originally posted by Eerhardt

The Great Flood is an example of God being both a punisher and being merciful. He let Noah build the ark, thus saving him, for living a good life and punished those who had had turned on their fellow man and lived a life of sin and murder by drowning them. Even then, God felt sorry for those who had drowned and let the rainbow become a symbol for the pact he made with Noah that he would never flood the earth again.

@E-Man - you are missing my point here -> God flooded the earth and KILLED the people and animals - nad AFTER he killed them - he threw them in hell ? Not even the WORST legal system punishes TWICE for the same crime... ( I know that sounds agressive, but I'm lost for the correct vocabulary here.. sorry )

No worries,

Beldin

Ok, I can see that, Beldin. Not the best example, I admit. What I'm trying to say is that he is merciful for promising not to flood the earth anymore, no matter how bad people are and for sparing Noah. The image of the rainbow is used to emphasize this. If he was really only a Cruel Punisher he could have just flooded Noah and his family too and have taken them to Heaven when they were dead. As for those people going to Hell, they deserved it in His/Her eyes. The act of killing them and sending them to Hell should not be viewed seperately, but as a single punishment. This is why he ìs also viewed as a Punisher. Like I said, you'll find 2 different aspects of God in the Old Testament and the New Testament, which are difficult to link at times.

I'm sorry for missing your point , so can you tell me: are we talking about the fact that God should only be seen as a Punishing, Vengeful All-Powerful being or the severity of his punishments?

Originally posted by Eerhardt

I'm sorry for missing your point , so can you tell me: are we talking about the fact that God should only be seen as a Punishing, Vengeful All-Powerful being or the severity of his punishments?

No need to be sorry, E-Man . I'm struggling myself to put my mind into the correct wording... .

I'm talking about that the RC church (as an institution) has for the last several centuries heavily relied on the image of the "punisher" to further fear and thus achieving a flock of sheep, following the mighty herders (i.e.: the priests & bishops & ...) .

In my opinion the institutionalized RC church has it all wrong. . . there WILL be no punishment. If I'm allowed to use such profane terms in this discussion - there might be some kind of "Psychotherapy" to make you see your faults and failures and make you suffer "internally" but I think the picture of the punishing, angry god is just kept alive by the church for the gullible who prefer to have their thinking done by others - be it the church or any other autoritarian organisation or person.

( BTW -I won't dispute gods existence in THIS thread - since that would end my participation of this discussion... - no god = nothing to talk about )

Another thought which is bugging me:
God gave us the "free will" - but in giving it to us he has given up any right to judge it - otherwise it wouldn't be "free" - if I had to fear punishment I would be inhibited in my desicions.
THIS way the only one who can judge me is ME . The longer I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that "heaven" and "hell" are just allegories (sp?) meant to make us THINK about ourselves and our behaviour.... maybe "heaven" is in our minds....maybe the Hindus (is that the correct term ? ) which believe in equilibrium and the "nirvana" - the eternal peace "within" - have it right... ??

- but of course this is free to discussion .

No worries,

Beldin

Good point, Beldin .

I agree with you on the Catholic Church as an institution exploiting the image of the punisher to drive fear into its followers. This probably has its origins in the Middle Ages, when some of the clergy helped the nobles to keep the peasants at bay. Belief in "judgement" and "punishment" is just that: belief. I don't think anyone can "prove" God will punish you and send you to Hell or reward you and send you to Heaven. More so, because no-one knows what "Heaven" or "Hell" really is. Like many things in the Bible, a lot is open to interpretation.

Since I got blasted and no reply last time...

Alright @eminem...

Since ya got your shot off via the other thread. I didnt reply doing to Fables best wishes, that anti starwars evil person(kidding, kidding).

Anyhow back to my lovely comment.

I ask all to visit http://www.biblebabble.com and read through it, then cross check it to the actuall bible indeed like I did.

And Eminem, If I am blindly being led by my faith, a faith in myself and no real "church" or "god" in the sense of a flying invisible old man god.... then your right. I am led by myself and no one else.

thank you

thug

Originally posted by Eerhardt
Ok, Ode, I've added your comment since you have the right to respond to Eminem's remark. Before this thread is closed and Fable's thread ends up getting side-tracked again , I'd like to ask everyone not to attack other members personally. You are always entitled to a reply and can state your disagreement with other members' views, but there is no need to attack them personally. I know what it's like to have somebody make a sarcastic remark, plainly provoking a conflict and the need to get even, but I'm asking you to be the better man/woman and ignore it. [size=0]I'll go get some more shock treatment for my Mod Schizophrenia now[/size]

*Sheathes claws*
Don't worry @Eerhardt, I was being well-behaved. I simply answered EMINEM's question as he put it to me. Read the post again and see.

On that theme...

Everybody is entitled to an opinion on this, one of the most personal, factually unverifiable topics of all. We'd like to see everybody have a chance to explain their views, and focus only on that; but if you (meaning anybody) feels the need to question someone else's views, remember to keep the side trip short, and pleasant. Consider that if somebody thinks you'll be torn to pieces for eternity or vanish into nothingness, this is neither fact, nor have they a vote in your ultimate destination, assuming you have one. Shrug off flack good-naturedly. As long as they don't misrepresent or revile you, they aren't harming you.

I'm not religious.
I know little of religions.
But as I said in another thread, what's the point in acting good, if you do so in fear of a possible punishment??

I'm not saying that all religions imply this. Maybe none does.
But many people I know DO act this way.
They seem only interested in their affairs, then they find something wrong done in the last week, so they have something to confess in Sunday with the priest.
And they're CLEAN again.

Surely many people follow their own religion in a deeper and involving way, I'm not blaming anyone.
Yet, there's something wrong at the origin IMHO..

Well, as most of you know, I'm an atheist. So you can pretty much guess my opinion on this.

My own opinion, for what little it's truly worth: I don't see "judgement" entering anywhere into a post-mortem picture. Judgement implies a scale of values, and deific judgement would imply a perfect scale of such values. However, there are quite a number of religions that presume to offer such a scale, and they all differ. At best, only one is right, and all the rest are wrong. Alternatively, they are all wrong.

(This is not a reflection upon these religions. I hope it's understood that I'm considering only this presented scale of values, not a religion itself, and that I'm using simple logic to outline a condition: If A claims to be right and all others wrong, and B claims to be right and all others wrong, than either A is right, or B is right, or both are wrong. I'm not the most logical of people by a longshot, but even I can perceive this.)

Are we to conclude that some god or goddess or pantheon waits for each soul, sees if they joined up to the right religion; and then hear, "You were a dutiful son, raised your children with love, made difficult decisions to best of your knowledge; but alas chose the wrong religion, and so, will go to eternal torment"...?

Or should we conclude that joining the right religion isn't the core guiding fact defining one's placement after death (although several religions insist it is), but how one lived one's life? I don't see why or how people can be judged by lives spent in a world where there many holy books and holy men and women preaching contradictory solutions to the same problems, and where daily dilemnas of life prompt internal voices that again pull in different directions. Nor do I find the holy books in question without internal inconsistencies, sometimes on a massive scale in so far as guiding conduct is offered to humanity, both by example and direction.

(Please note that my questions above are not meant to be addressed to anybody. They are merely hypothetical. In fact, I'd rather they not be answered, since that will take us away from stating our series of opinions on this issue.)

If there is such a thing as deific judgement, perhaps each is judged by the deity to which he or she holds. Alduous Huxley speculated that the soul, after death, can either accept its own obliteration in the entirety-which-is-god, or flee back to another form of life. I find that too pessimistic; maybe, as I've suggested before, flaws which form the self are simply burnt out after death, for as long as that takes.

I honestly don't know. Haven't a clue. Interested in finding out, though, someday.

Fable

I too am horribly curios about finding out, you first though.

thug

Re: Fable

Originally posted by RandomThug
I too am horribly curios about finding out, you first though.

LOL! I suspect that'll be the case, given my age, unless someone gets the spelling police after you, first.