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The Wall

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:55 am
by Delacroix
Today, I saw in the news that Israel is about to build a Great Wall to put apart the Cijordania Territory. ( I'll not put a link, since you will not have dificult to find it in the News).

Some problems are very dificult to solve, certanly. Maybe some others are impossible to solve, we cannot know.

But certanly, raise a Wall, as hystory show us, is never the solution. From the efemerical wall of Apartheid to the solid one of Berlin; passing to the hypocrite walls raised in the urban cyties to put apart social sects(Los Angelis, São Paulo...). The Walls are the most hypocrital and stupid way. Symbol of hate from the both sides. Symbol of Sharon and his politics. Also symbol of those who remain quiet while such things happens.

The only purpose of their existance, IMO, is to be broked.

It's very sad that in sec. XXI people still looking and acting for the past times.

Comments?

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 12:57 am
by Tamerlane
Well a Palestinian commentator summed up my feelings when he said

A bad fence creates bad neighbours

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:02 am
by Ode to a Grasshopper
I thought this was going to be a thread about Pink Floyd... :o

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:05 am
by Tamerlane
Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
I thought this was going to be a thread about Pink Floyd... :o
LOL

The problem with the wall is that even Sharons own members don't agree with it being in place. They see it as a possible future border for a Palestinian state, whilst the Palestinians or should I say those wanting peace see it another attempt by Sharon to avoid any peaceful solution.

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 1:16 am
by CM
My views are biased, to say the least, so this is my take on the issue. Sharon should have been hanged back in the 80s for war crimes against the Palestinians in Lebanon. Simple as that. He is not a leader, he is not a man of peace like Bush said so. He doesn't deserve to be leader and in many ways his policies are just moving the peace process back further and further. Before there were 7 dimensions to the peace process. This is number 8. He is dividing it even more, which will lead to resentment and even more reprisals. Look if people could get in before then can do so again. The wall is not going to stop anything. This is not peace this is pure and simple aparthied.

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 3:36 am
by Delacroix
By CM:
My views are biased, to say the least, so this is my take on the issue. Sharon should have been hanged back in the 80s for war crimes against the Palestinians in Lebanon. Simple as that. He is not a leader, he is not a man of peace like Bush said so. He doesn't deserve to be leader and in many ways his policies are just moving the peace process back further and further. Before there were 7 dimensions to the peace process. This is number 8. He is dividing it even more, which will lead to resentment and even more reprisals. Look if people could get in before then can do so again. The wall is not going to stop anything. This is not peace this is pure and simple aparthied.


@CM- Agree with you. So, I don't see your words as biased, or I don't see how is possible to be neutral towards the fact.



By Ode to a Grasshopper:
I thought this was going to be a thread about Pink Floyd...



Empty Spaces

"What shall we use to fill the empty spaces
Where we used to talk?
How should I fill the final places?
How should I complete the wall? "


Pink Floyd-The Wall

This song sound very related to the topic. :)
In Sharon voice.

Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2002 4:10 am
by Ode to a Grasshopper
Glad to see I wasn't totally wrong... :D

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 12:52 am
by CM
2 suicide bombers.
A wall going up.
At least 26 Israelis dead.
2 Palestinians dead.
Now in response, the Israeli govt.
Has decided that they will take territory every time there is an attack.

Link: http://www.iht.com/articles/61934.htm

This just can't get any worse.
Of course with the oil coming from the caspian sea
the US won't really care what happens in the mid-east

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 1:54 am
by Morlock
Originally posted by CM
My views are biased, to say the least, so this is my take on the issue. Sharon should have been hanged back in the 80s for war crimes against the Palestinians in Lebanon. Simple as that. He is not a leader, he is not a man of peace like Bush said so. He doesn't deserve to be leader and in many ways his policies are just moving the peace process back further and further. Before there were 7 dimensions to the peace process. This is number 8. He is dividing it even more, which will lead to resentment and even more reprisals. Look if people could get in before then can do so again. The wall is not going to stop anything. This is not peace this is pure and simple aparthied.
I totaly agree, but why doesn't anyone try this one:

My views are biased, to say the least, so this is my take on the issue. Arafat should have been hanged back in the 80's for terrorism acts against Israelis. Simple as that.

What I'm saying is, Sharon is a bad leader. Although I won't use your words, he should have held acountable in an international court for the massacares at the refuge camps.
Arafat is a terrorist. His own group has, and is, one of the most violent terrorist groups operating here.
CNN calls them militants.
militants act against soldiers. Terrorists act against civilians.

I totaly agree that the wall is wrong, but for different resons. The wall does stop bombers, as do military incursions. But they are wrong from a humane and political point of view.

2 suicide bombers.
A wall going up.
At least 26 Israelis dead.
2 Palestinians dead.
Now in response, the Israeli govt.
Has decided that they will take territory every time there is an attack.


This is unfair. Two suicide bombers do not account to to Palestinians. They are Palestinian suicide bombers. Just like Bin Laden isn't an Saudi, but a Saudi terrorist.

With the Hamas, Fatah, Jihad and PLFP all declaring open season to kill civiliens, issuing tapes on making bombs, advertising that 'if you die killing jews, Allah and the Koran promise you'll get to heaven', no response will kill more civilians.
I am just as much of a target as the people who are going to be evicted in Jenin.
I'm not willing to be a target any more.
This is not the mean Israelis against the poor Palestians. I won't say it's the other way around, but people here are, after 20 months, immune to caring about the Palestinians. After every single person in the country is within two degrees of separation of someone who was murdered, people want drastic measures to stop the bombers. The incursions worked, but again, were inhumane towards the Palestinians. Right now, most people couldn't care less about them.

This is not the walls fault.
Israels reactions were wrong, but they were REactions. If Israel stops it's offensive, the terrorist have declared that they won't stop there's. If the terrorists stop bombing, then there'll be no reaction.
Even Saeb Erakat, chief Palestinian negotiator, and, if you watch CNN/BBC, the Palestinian ambassador to the press, says that the terrorists only hurt the Palestinians, although he disagrees on the method.
The Palestinian Authority has algedly told Hamas to stop, as they're hurting the chances for a state.

I am getting very carried away here, as someone who is personaly suffering from terrorism, and although, I am much closer the voice of reason than most Israelis, that autimaticaly makes me biased.

And Last, but not least- I would like to explain to all muslim members of this board (CM in particular) that nothing I say is directed at you and I don't want anything I say to be the cause of ill will between us.

Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:17 am
by CM
Morlock I find the analogy between Sharon and Arafat interesting. But I have one question, would you consider Mandela a terrorist then? The ANC (Mandela's organization) was responsible for acts which will be categorized as terrorism today. How much happened with or without his knowledge who can tell? But there were incidents where the ANC commited terrorist acts. Does that make Mandela a terrorist? Hindsight of course says know.

Now i am not comparing Israel to the Apartheid govt neither am i calling Arafat a man of peace. Personally think he is really bad for the palestinian people and should be locked up if not something worse. But from my point of view, the Palestinian people have a legit claim to the west bank and gaza. These lands are defacto under occupation. Any acts in my opinion in these territories are a resistance movement.

This is how i see it. A premise was established in world war 2 where resistance movements in France, Poland etc. actively targetted german military as well as civilain installations. Yet after the war these very same people who killed innocents were called heros. As they defeated an invading army which was commiting vile acts.

The same can be said for the de-colonization period. Armed resistance movements claiming back their land from the colonizers actively attacked collabrators and heck europeans including family. These guys later on become leaders of the countries in most of Africa if not in India and South East Asia.

Using these two historical examples establishing the status quo, it is accepted to have resistance movements to territory that is occupied. The West bank and gaza strip are just that according to the UN, the US, the EU. The whole world agrees on this.

Thus in my opinion the resistance movement is legit. I don't agree with the killing of innocents from either side. I don't agree with suicide bombing, as I have stated before it is against the very laws of islam, where suicide is a sin. However I can understand the frustration and their need to do something against the israeli incursions.

Also to effectively check Hamas and the other radicals. Just 2 things need to done in my opinion.

A. Stop attacking Arafat and the PLO, they are Israelis only chance for peace.
B. If you stop the incursions you take out the rug underneath the extremists groups collective feets.

In the mid-90's the hamas had an all time low popularity of less than 20%. When the intifada started and the people were not happy did that popularity rise. When there is peace and economic prosperity these groups loose out on public support. That is what Israel should be doing.

I read this in a Tom Clancy book - don't know who he quoted - to attack an enemy, you don't attack its arms, you attacks its heart and mind. That is the Palestinian people.

And Morlock, this is a discussion, I will take nothing personally. If i do i will be sure to pm you so that we can clear up any confusion. Just hope you will do the same.