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I was having a conversation with a friend on the porn industry and i was of the view that it was degrading to women. But his reply was a simple one that has me dumb founded. If the men and women chose this as their job, who are we to disagree with them. After all it is their choice. If we get to watch why should we bother?

So i am dumbfounded and have no rebuttal what do the smart folk of SYM say?

There is a convincing argument that porn is degrading to women; that it treats them as objects and submissive, because porn basically feeds the fantasies of men.

On the other hand, the women who are in porn often say that it is very empowering to them because they choose to appear in the films and that they can make more money having sex with men on film than they could working a regular job.

Interestingly HLD never spams always intellectual discussions. We need to fix that! But as it is their choice, is it really degrading that is what i want to get at. They chose they don't feel it is degrading so should we make comments on their behalf?

There are several economic and social factors that can make people do things they dont really feel good about. To encourage such behaviour is imo very bad.

There is also much critic directed towards the porn industry for promoting a very questionable picture of sex and relationships.

Originally posted by CM
Interestingly HLD never spams always intellectual discussions. We need to fix that!

I have been known to spam intellectual discussions, but usually only after the original point has been met/addressed or the thread devolves into an all out flame war.

But as it is their choice, is it really degrading that is what i want to get at. They chose they don't feel it is degrading so should we make comments on their behalf?

I think that while the starlets who appear in the movies may be empowered by taking control of their bodies and their careers, a lot of porn is degrading to women. They are often treated as the objects of desire or as sex-starved creatures. And that's the mainstream porn, not the fetish or more extreme hardcore porn.

I think that it is possible to have erotic, hardcore films. If you look at the body of work by Candida Royale or Andrew Blake, the films are very sensual and not only good porn, but good artistic films. Having said that, most porn is bad. The "acting" is bad, the "plot" is bad, the cinematography is bad. It's all about the money shot, and on balance, porn is not good for the self-image of women.

Originally posted by CM
Interestingly HLD never spams always intellectual discussions. We need to fix that! But as it is their choice, is it really degrading that is what i want to get at. They chose they don't feel it is degrading so should we make comments on their behalf?

Question: If you chose a job that you secretly feel ashamed of but keep because it makes you money...what would you say when people ask you if you feel degraded?? 'Yes, I feel degraded, I loathe myself for working at this job'? OR...'No, I CHOOSE to work here, there's nothing wrong with this job'? I would say I choose to work there and that there's nothing wrong with the job if I agree with that philosophy or not...it's better for ones self esteem that way...


HLD: My main problems with the porn industry center as to their depiction of women. Women with huge and rather grotesque breasts are the norm. The majority of the breasts I've seen on those porn covers are not only highly improbably for most women but not naturally possible at all.

While it IS possible to be a size 'D' while wearing a size 6 pants (though improbable and not representative of the majority of women) it IS NOT possible to naturally be a size ‘G’ or whatever and a size 2 pants. It just doesn't happen.

Do men like breasts that look so, well...odd? I would think, no, that men would like women who are proportional with natural type curves? But who knows, I'm not a man

The second type of woman I saw actually had smaller breasts, but the fact that her type looked fourteen and was wearing school girl type clothing lead me to believe that her type was there for pedophile fantasies...

But then I ran from the porn section when the scary man came back, so who knows, I’m sure I missed the artistic and well done videos

Am I against porn? Not at all. Naked bodies are all good. I just think that the industry iteslf tends to focus on ‘fake’ and ‘fetish’ too much.

Originally posted by HighLordDave
I think that it is possible to have erotic, hardcore films. If you look at the body of work by Candida Royale or Andrew Blake, the films are very sensual and not only good porn, but good artistic films. Having said that, most porn is bad. The "acting" is bad, the "plot" is bad, the cinematography is bad. It's all about the money shot, and on balance, porn is not good for the self-image of women.

I think he just whipped out his own library to post this...

I personally don't think it should affect those women who choose not to do porn. I guess I'm saying I don't think it degrading to women. I think along these lines becuase

A) It was that womans choice to do the porn, whatever the reasons, they still had the choice to do it, or not.
B) It's only degrading if talk down about it.

The way I see it, as long as the starlet feels good about herself, then there is nothing wrong about it.

I think that many of the people who appear in porn aren't ashamed of what they do; in fact they love it. They are lavished with attention and money.

Vivien is exactly right when the calls into question whether women are depicted positively in films because they are not. Women who appear in porn are by and large there for the entertainment of men. While they're on screen, most women are objectified. If you watch starlets (I refuse to call them actresses) as they advance through their careers (Jenna Jameson is at this stage right now), they often go about disfiguring themselves in order to keep their "look" through breast implants, collagen injections or other surgeries. It's clearly not healthy, either to them or the image of women that their viewers have.

Let me pose another question: Does the way women appear in porn (with their charicatured bodies) affect the self-image of women any more than mainstream media outlets (ie-TV, magazines, etc.) who offer up an idealised female form that is not typical of how most women look? I don't think that porn is any more damaging to the mainstream depiction of women in terms of their body image; our society does a fair job of encouraging eating disorders and plastic surgery without porn.

Aegis,
Just a question...

How do you feel about porn that depicts rape/murder, sex with minors or any of those things? I'm talking the graphic kind here. Is it okay then if the starlet 'feels good about herself' after making that movie? Do you think porno's like those are good for women in general?

Ok, valid question.

As I said, though, I said that if the starlet feels good about herself, then I got no problem about it. To be honest though, when I responded, those particular pieces had slipped my mind. While I am against even considering those types of the depictions, they are for the most part just that, depictions. Thus, the starlet still must agree to do that particular movie.

Originally posted by Vivien
How do you feel about porn that depicts rape/murder, sex with minors or any of those things? I'm talking the graphic kind here. Is it okay then if the starlet 'feels good about herself' after making that movie? Do you think porno's like those are good for women in general?

That's a loaded question, Vivien. So let me ask the flip side of that: If a movie shows hardcore pornography, does it necessarily degrade women? Does a movie that depicts gun violence necessarily glorify it? If a TV show has Ted McGinley in it, is it necessarily bad . . . oops, bad example . . .

There can be (but often aren't) depictions of rape that do not glorify the act. Jodie Foster in The Accused is a prime example. Saving Private Ryan was horribly violent and graphic, but I don't think you'll find a single person to claim that is glorifies war or gun violence.

When you talk about the extreme end of porn: fetish, pedophilia, rape, beastiality, snuff films, etc., you're getting into the areas that are out of "mainstream" porn and into behaviours which are generally considered deviant. I think most acts in those films degrade everyone in them, not just the women.

Originally posted by HighLordDave
I think that many of the people who appear in porn aren't ashamed of what they do; in fact they love it. They are lavished with attention and money.

I think you are wrong. Whereas the porn industry wants to propagate this image, sociological studies reveal another image. Studies where porn actors and actresses are anonymously interviewed, instead show that a majority of them have social and emotional problems as well as drug addiction problems. A majority of the women have been vicitms of sexual abuse as children or very young. This IMO poses questions about why people choose this line of work, and how their career affects them. Whereas I'm sure some people are happy with being porn actors, it is obviously not a majority.

Let me pose another question: Does the way women appear in porn (with their charicatured bodies) affect the self-image of women any more than mainstream media outlets (ie-TV, magazines, etc.) who offer up an idealised female form that is not typical of how most women look? I don't think that porn is any more damaging to the mainstream depiction of women in terms of their body image; our society does a fair job of encouraging eating disorders and plastic surgery without porn.

A recent study of Fiji, where Western TV was introduced just a few years ago, demonstrate highly interesting results relevant for the question of how media affects self-image. From having had 0% incidence of eating disorders, and a culture where a curvy body shape in women was encouraged, bulimi has now risen to 11% among young girls, and an increasing number of teenagers say they feel "fat". I can post the original article if someone wants to see it.

Whereas I don't think the porn industry is worse in this particular respect than mainstream media, I absolutely don't think "two wrongs make a right", ie just because mainstream media has a negative effect on self-image, the porn industry can't be excused and accpeted. Instead, efforts should be made to reduce all this negative influences.

I think you are wrong. Whereas the porn industry wants to propagate this image, sociological studies reveal another image. Studies where porn actors and actresses are anonymously interviewed, instead show that a majority of them have social and emotional problems as well as drug addiction problems. A majority of the women have been vicitms of sexual abuse as children or very young. This IMO poses questions about why people choose this line of work, and how their career affects them. Whereas I'm sure some people are happy with being porn actors, it is obviously not a majority.

@CE pretty much said what I would have, had I seen this thread first. Leaving aside the question of what the films try to depict, the porn business itself is a seamy, exploitative one that frequently preys upon those it displays. Curiously, I was reading a piece of fanfiction recently that briefly touched upon the matter with intelligence and dignity, and spoke of it in terms not too different. Here is the relevant passage. The work is by Chris Jones, and the conversation is between two martial artists--Soun and his mid-teens daughter, Akane, whom he's caught with some lesbian photo-zines:

"I know that you've been experimenting," he said, "and that you will probably continue to do so, but I'd like you to consider something before you buy anything else like this," he said. "Do you know what you're paying for here?"

Teary-eyed, Akane shook her head. "I thought I was just buying a magazine," she admitted in a quiet voice.

"And why do you think these girls do this sort of thing?" he asked.

The answer was very easy, but Akane had never thought about it before. "Money," she guessed.

Soun nodded. "I'm certain some of them are doing it for a thrill or for some other reason, but I think that most of them do this for the money. What do you think girls like this do with that kind of money?"

Akane was silent.

"I bet that a few of them are just living a very high lifestyle with nice clothes and fancy electronics." Soun said. "I understand that it pays fairly well. I'm certain others are taking advantage of their bodies in order to pay for tuition, rent, or debt. There may even be a few who are using it to support their families. I think that there are quite a few girls who do that because its the only way they can support their habits, Akane."

The girl gulped at the statement.

"Of course I don't know for certain. I've never been involved in that sort of thing," Soun admitted, "even as many times as the master tried to convince me of how wonderful it would be. I understand that its a very exploitive business and that its very easy to become part of a dark, dark world. I imagine that at least some of the people who are involved in producing this sort of thing can be very unscrupulous and misleading.

"I know from experience that its very easy to get someone to do something they don't want to do if you promise enough of something they do want," Soun continued. "In my case, mastery of the martial arts came at a price that I wished I never had to pay. For a long time, I even thought that I managed to leave it behind me, but it still came back to haunt me. How many of these girls do you think will feel the same way when they're a little bit older?"

Originally posted by Vivien
But then I ran from the porn section when the scary man came back, so who knows, I’m sure I missed the artistic and well done videos

Am I against porn? Not at all. Naked bodies are all good. I just think that the industry iteslf tends to focus on ‘fake’ and ‘fetish’ too much.

Well, taste differ, but I did not find Candida Royal's and Andrew Blake's movies much better than the standard stuff, so IMO you haven't missed anything. People look a bit better, light and scenography also look a bit better, but so far, I've only seen the same old stereotypes and patterns. I'd like to discuss these stereotypes more detailed, but I'm not sure what is suitable on this board, since Buck is in the US. What is viewed at natural or educative in Sweden, is often illegal in the US

Like Viv, I think naked bodies and sex are all good, but the problem with the porn industry is the unrealistic and stereotyped, almost ritualised way they depict sexual behaviour. This is IMO what is degrading, and it's degrading to both men and women.

Dottie also brings up a very import issue: the effect porn has on the viewer. Again, sociological studies show that porn movies affect people's view of sexual behaviour, relationships and the opposite gender. People with less real sexual experience are usually more prone to influences. Many people feel forced to perform certain acts and like certain things because they believe it's "normal and expected".
Much of our sexual behaviour and what cues turns us on, are learned behaviours. By watching a lot of porn (especially if masturbating simultaneously), a person unconsciously learn his/her body to trigger on certain cues. The person becomes dependend on these cues, and in worst case, a highly unflexible and limited sexual behaviour pattern develops.

CE and Fable *hug* Thank you for that information.




Okay, I'll stay in this debate a bit longer, but plan on getting out if I let my feelings on this issue get in the way. I get too involved emotionally in issues like this and don't want to lash out. I did level a loaded question at Aegis *hugs Aegis* but it is because I feel strongly about certain issues involving porn not being healthy in the least. It doesn't make me respect the women who would let themselves be 'play raped' or the people who would watch that sort of thing.

I also think the way media portrays women in general is not healthy. Is it good that every single one of my female friends thinks that they are fat, though they are all thin to average?

Edit for bad spelling, I'm tired and heading home as well

HLD:
CE answered part of your comments with more information than I have, but I do agree with part of your statement. Porn can degrade both men and women.

Edit: In reading through my statements I seem very anti-porn. I don't consider myself against that, I like sexuality, like new ways to explore it...porn should be one way to explore that...

But I guess it can reinforce certain stereotypes that are not positive...can exploit...hmm...hard to have a firm opinion...

Originally posted by Vivien
Edit: In reading through my statements I seem very anti-porn. I don't consider myself against that, I like sexuality, like new ways to explore it...porn should be one way to explore that...

But I guess it can reinforce certain stereotypes that are not positive...can exploit...hmm...hard to have a firm opinion...

I have a question in return (And by the way, I don't mind the loaded question. It gave me something to take my mind of my other problems). You mentioned that porn can give a negative sterotype idea towards people, but how is that nay dfferent from peer pressure among teens and friends? Being a 16 old male, I know all too well what the pressure is like. When I took Cait (My date to the prom) to the prom, and subsequently to a hotel afterwards (as a social thing with a few other friends), there were a ton of coments about how we didn't do anything. Now, most people would lose face with peer pressure like that, and it would lead to very negative things. Now, is that any different then porn? And if so, how?

Originally posted by Aegis
When I took Cait (My date to the prom) to the prom, and subsequently to a hotel afterwards (as a social thing with a few other friends), there were a ton of coments about how we didn't do anything. Now, most people would lose face with peer pressure like that, and it would lead to very negative things. Now, is that any different then porn? And if so, how?

Your friends are indulging in some less-enlightened aspects of male bonding behavior based on what they've been told is "manly." Their advice is free. Porn is a business. Its object is to make you 1) feel the need for something, and 2) buy it. A world of difference, as I see it. A healthy regard for loving sexuality has been part of human culture for a very long time (and thank goodness for that!). This is entirely different from making money off its exploitation.

Originally posted by fable


Your friends are indulging in some less-enlightened aspects of male bonding behavior based on what they've been told is "manly." Their advice is free. Porn is a business. Its object is to make you 1) feel the need for something, and 2) buy it. A world of difference, as I see it. A healthy regard for loving sexuality has been part of human culture for a very long time (and thank goodness for that!). This is entirely different from making money off its exploitation.

Okay, I can accept that, but the basic concept is the same. While porn does promote certain ways of thinking about sex (whether it be by new methods, or even just things to spice it up), so does peer pressure among teens. The only major difference, as you said, is that the porn industry makes a profit.

@Aegis: Since Viv is heading home and probably won't be posting for a little while, I take the liberty of presenting my take on this question. First, let me say I think it's very strong of you that you haven't fallen victim of peer pressure but keep your integrity. Sex is definitely something that should only be governed by people's own will, not anything else.

Just like with HLD:s discussion about mainstream media v porn, I think mainstream porn is not different from peer pressure, I think it can add to peer pressure and also determine the content of the pressure. Studies of teenagers of course show there is a lot of peer pressure regarding sex. However, many teenagers do not only feel pressure to have sex, they also feel pressure to look and act in certain ways. During the 1990's it has become clear that young people believe they have to perform certain types of sexual acts that they believe "everybody else does", when in reality, according to large anonymous polls, only a minority engage in.

Mods, edit this if it's to explicit. Personally I don't feel this is unsuitable reading for underage members, on the contrary I think it should be discussed more, especially with underage people.

An example: In most mainstream porn movies, there are scenes where guys ejaculate in women's faces. This I believe has a twofold background: 1. In porn movies, showing the male ejaculation is important since this shows it is "real". 2. In porn movies, women are mostly depicted as submissive, whereas men are depicted as dominant. Both genders are depicted as liking these roles, and ejaculating in a woman's face is part of "dominating" and "controlling" her.
Now, according to investigations and polls about sexual behaviour, it's clear that a vast majority of women do not at all like men to ejaculate in their face. Yet, in porn movies, it's presented as the ultimate sexual pleasure to both men and women. This leads people to believe they should like it, and males might feel it's the thing to do even if they don't like it. They may even do it because they think the girl wants it that way (Girls in porn movies do). Females might think they must allow the man to do this since it's obviously such a pleasure for the man. So both parties end up doing a specific act none of them enjoys, because they believe everybody enjoys it and it's just abnormal not to enjoy it. An unusual sexual preference becomes "normalised" because you have seen it 20 or even 50 times in porn movies.

The 1990's was the decade when cable TV became widespread in Europe. Cable TV shows porn movies almost every night, just late. Any teenager could watch porn movies at the TV in their room, at the family TV when the parents are away, etc. Internet has only increased the availability - any 10 year old who knows how to use internet, also knows how to get hold of porn if they want to. During the same period of time, teenagers have been found to increasingly believe it is common and expected not only with ejaculation in women's faces, but also several other typical porn stereotypes like group sex and anal sex.
So this is how porn movies can provide more ingredients to peer pressure. There would be no peer pressure regarding ejaculation in women's faces if everybody hadn't seen it on porn movies According to some studies, a majority of girls feel they must conceed to anal sex if they want to have sex with a boy. According to other studies, a majority of boys think their penis is to small. Now, how can a majority have smaller penises than the average? The truth is they don't have small penises - just small compared to what they believe they should have, and what they believe girls want. Boys often feel a lot of performance axiety around sex. If the girl doesn't scream for 10 minutes, they believe they didn't do well enough and feel they are failures.

I could line up many more examples, but this post is already too long, and if somebody wants to read the studies I've referred to, notify me and I'll find them for you.

Like Viv, I feel I might sound very anti-porn, but I'm not, I'm just anti the messages and images the porn industry propagates, and the documented negative effects they have. If I had teenage children, I wouldn't want them to take impression from the mainstream porn we have today, but I'd encourage all kind of learning and exploring sex they way the feel suit themselves and their partners. Perhaps amateur porn with real people would be something?

Wow! You really know your porn, CE!