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Human Nature - naughty or nice ? (Definitely NO Spam.)
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 5:55 am
by Beldin
This topic came up in several threads (Rogue States, Why Marxism Sucks, Poll: Do you want to rule the world, The Soviet Union) .
Since I'm not very politically inclined I'd like to discuss the "human factor" in politics rather than politics in itself.
Personally I think that in every person out there - be it hero, saint or social outcast - something "naughty" is hidden.
Inside everyone there's a little greedy, smelly, powerhungry, violent, unsavory Troll - waiting to step in and "take over".
That makes "being nice" a constant effort - once you let your guard down it gets to you ->
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is WHAT I WANT !"
(quote:The BOFH)
Now my question is: Do you have to be a powerhungry villain to go into politics (like flies drawn by the manure (sp?) ) , or does the political way of life make a powerhungry, greedy villain out of you ?
Or are we ALL just hidden madmen, waiting for our chance to "take over the world, Pinky !"
No worries.
Beldin
PS: For clarification of my position on "***holes in politics" please read
"Just my rant..."
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 5:57 am
by Mr.Waesel
Where's the funny part? This IS the SYM forum, right?
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:03 am
by Xandax
Originally posted by Mr.Waesel
Where's the funny part? This IS the SYM forum, right?
It said No Spam in the topic - so don't spam!
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Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:03 am
by Tamerlane
Originally posted by Beldin
or does the political way of life make a powerhungry, greedy villain out of you ?
I'd go with this assumption. However I don't like to stereotype a whole profession just because of a few bad eggs.
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:03 am
by Mr Sleep
@Mr Waesel would you be so kind as to read our SYM specific rules please, this will hopefully clarify things a little.
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:16 am
by Maharlika
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 8:57 am
by frogus
read 'Power' by Russell.
This question is a lot more complicated than just 'naughty' and 'nice', especially if you don't believe in God (*ahem*Beldin).
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:11 am
by Beldin
Originally posted by frogus
read 'Power' by Russell.
This question is a lot more complicated than just 'naughty' and 'nice', especially if you don't believe in God (*ahem*Beldin).
@froggy: Could you explain the *ahem* part ? I just don't get it.
On the question being complicated or not - I know it's complicated, that's why I posted the question in such simple terms - I know I can trust our fellow SYMbionts to come up with all the complications. I just wanted to start out nice and easy...
.
- as for my beliefs - I DO believe in the human nature of being "as nasty as I can get away with" as soon as the possibility arises...
No worries,
Beldin
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:17 am
by Dottie
I agree that the problem is mostly more complex then good or bad. I think some of the big problems with power is that people in command tend to think that they can always judge if something is good or bad, Even if the question concerns a field were they are poorly educated. It is also common for rulers to alienate themselfs from the general populace wich is imo a source of both corruption and cynicism. Unfortunatly I think this is not only true for individuals but also for groups and cultures, so wherever you place power you will always create some kind of monster. But this monster may have a cincere ambition to make things better.
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 12:12 pm
by AbysmalNature
Human nature naughty or nice, I would have to say both, humans are not polar creatures, we are a lot more complex then that.
I would have to say that yes there are some people who start out to change the system but then get caught up in one to many compromises and eventually compromise their integrity, whereas there are others who simply get into the political arena simply for power and the ability to control others.
Human nature is fundamentally good, I really believe that and it is also on the other spectrum fundamentally evil, I think if one views them as both, then you would be more comfortable with reality in general, I mean even the worst politicians have some good in them, event the best leaders have some evil in them, and there are no polar values for what human nature is.
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:35 pm
by frogus
the difference here between real politics and social/political philosophy is alot like the difference between high fashion design and high-street trends. Being a politician means dealing with what is really happening, while being a political philosopher allows you to deal with what should happen. A high-fashion designer doesn't care about keeping people warm or dry, but is more akin to an artist. He sees concepts and ways of making sublime clothes which are almost perfect, but completely unuseable. So political philosophers may never have any ideas that will actually work, but that is where revolutionary ideas come from. Revolutions, and the political concepts that survive through history are not made by the likes of Tony Blair, nore are succesful governments run by revolutionary thinkers, but which is more important? Being a politician really means dealing with petty, trivial, menial, day-to-day problems.
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:43 pm
by Beldin
Originally posted by frogus
Being a politician really means dealing with petty, trivial, menial, day-to-day problems.
Correct.
Problems like "How can I make most money by being utterly and completely corrupt."
I don't believe ANY person to be completely honest and politicians are the worst lot. Everyone has a price....
No worries,
Beldin
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:22 pm
by Quark
Neutral: The environment chooses naughty or nice.
Posted: Wed Mar 27, 2002 11:45 pm
by Ode to a Grasshopper
It's a well-observed phenomenon that those who seek power are also those who are least suited to rule. In my experience most politicians who start out trying to make the world a better place either cave in to the gritty reality of politics or leave in an attempt to salvage their consciences.
@Frogus- You haven't explained what that little *ahem* is for yet. Got something you want to say to us heathens, God-boy?
Posted: Thu Mar 28, 2002 3:37 am
by frogus
shhh..don't tell...
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 3:13 am
by Beldin
Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
@Frogus- You haven't explained what that little *ahem* is for yet. Got something you want to say to us heathens, God-boy?
@ode: That's assuming there IS a god....that's not been proven yet.
No worries,
Beldin
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 4:12 am
by Kameleon
I mostly agree with Quark - however human nature is not determined by upbringing. Human nature is what we are all born with, and it is ultimately selfish. It is masked by our upbringing, which teaches us to be "naughty or nice", either alienating us from life or making us acceptable. Sometimes however our selfish nature is allowed to get out, and so things happen like a pacifist father killing someone to protect his child. Drastic and unexpected events like this only happen usually at moments of extreme stress in normal people, however certain medical conditions remove the barriers of our sensibilities, and some people have never learnt that being totally honest and doing exactly what you feel at that moment without prior thought - is often the wrong thing to do.
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 4:17 am
by Beldin
Originally posted by Kameleon
and some people have never learnt that being totally honest and doing exactly what you feel at that moment without prior thought - is often the wrong thing to do.
THAT explains a lot about politicians and marketing managers...
No worries,
Beldin
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 4:23 am
by Tamerlane
Greetings Beldin
I see you've taken to spamming up your own 'no-spam' thread.
However if I must place my input, we are a bunch of naughty beings. However I'm not in the mood to write an in-depth paragraph arguing my points today.
Call me lazy...
Posted: Thu Apr 04, 2002 4:24 am
by Kameleon
Originally posted by Beldin
THAT explains a lot about politicians and marketing managers...
Does it? I rather thought that politicians didn't know how to be honest or do what's right. If you've found an honest politician, I would ask that you report him immediately to the proper authorities.