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I'm half way through a stealth/anti-stealth build, designed for PvP, with only 8 bard levels: Bard 8/ Fighter 12/AA 9/ SD 1. Drow: STR: 14, DEX 18->28 (to get One Shot), CON: 12, INT: 16, WIS: 8, CHA: 14. Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Hide are maxed, Concentration and Tumble are aimed at 30. The rest goes to UMD and Concentration. See Shadow Fighter | NWN2 Character Builder

This may sound rediculous, but I do believe that Bard spell casting ability is indispensible- even though it can only learn 4 spells from Level 1-2, 3 from Level 3, and cast at most 2 spells from the level 3 pool per day (with equipment). I'm thinking: displacement can be a life saver when steath is not available, and the strength or duration of spells such as Mirror Image, silence, are significantly improved.

So I am pondering over whether to choose Practiced spell caster, over Epic Prowess. I cannot sacrifice any other feat.

I'm also wondering if I should sacrifice part of the UMD skill (21 should be enough -with equipment I will be able to use Level 9 scrolls), and put Concentration at 15 (to ensure 100% success for defensive casting). I originally planed to scrap the Spot Skill altogether, but a higher Concentration skill yields diminished returns..and besides, I have so few spells to cast.

For the spells I chose (those in "()" are yet to be chosen):
Level 1: Remove Fear, Joyful Noise, Amplify, Balagarn's Iron Horn (can be removed, for something better?)
Level 2: Mirror Image, Heroism, (Silence), (Curse of Impending Blades)
Level 3: (Haste), (Clairaudience/Clairvoyance), (Displacement).

On a side note: I wonder if Perform provide any bonus at all to the bard's inspirations, which is all I'm using. My Perform is set at 3, to save skill points. It's too late to change this one.

Any help or comments are appreciated. Thanks!

Bard Inspirations only require 3 points in Perform.. BUT it needs to be both a "native" 3 points and at least a *net* 3 points. With 14 in Charisma you'll have a net of 5.

Practiced Spell Caster gives you 4 additional levels for duration, or half again as much as your 8 levels - so it's a good trade for spell duration in particular. Extended Spell's require one spell level higher and you wouldn't be able to cast any of your 3rd level spells extended.

Definitely use Yuan-ti.

Your Concentration skill is way to low. UMD is to high. Spot can be lowered a bit as well.

Grease instead of Balagarn's Iron Horn. No spell resistance and it has a reflex save (instead of fortitude/will) - and that's just for the knockdown effect, other than a freedom of movement like effect it always *slows*.

Thanks for the heads up...yea, I figured that bumping spot to max may be a waste for an anti-stealth character. Since I get amplify so cheap, and listening is enough for anti-stealth (both checks must be passed to remain stealthy). Since my listening skill should be pretty high anyways, it might be better slashing Listen instead of Spot?

I'm stuck at level 19, with 21 in UMD already...If I revert to an earlier save, I get 20 in UMD and Spot (Listen?), which leaves me 25 free points, enough to bump Concentration to 29 (I'm currently at 4...).

The reason why I didn't attach importance to concentration in the first place is that I have so few spells to cast from memory. I've just figured that if I cast spells from some scrolls, I use my Bard caster level to determine the duration. Which means that practiced spell caster will benefit spells cast from both scrolls and memory, while concentration only benefits those few spells that can be cast from memory. (And it's probably better to disengage from combat and rebuff oneself than to rebuff in the mist of battle...)

In any event, I agree with you on most points. Thanks.

mbz wrote:Thanks for the heads up...yea, I figured that bumping spot to max may be a waste for an anti-stealth character. Since I get amplify so cheap, and listening is enough for anti-stealth (both checks must be passed to remain stealthy). Since my listening skill should be pretty high anyways, it might be better slashing Listen instead of Spot?

I'm stuck at level 19, with 21 in UMD already...If I revert to an earlier save, I get 20 in UMD and Spot (Listen?), which leaves me 25 free points, enough to bump Concentration to 29 (I'm currently at 4...).

The reason why I didn't attach importance to concentration in the first place is that I have so few spells to cast from memory. I've just figured that if I cast spells from some scrolls, I use my Bard caster level to determine the duration. Which means that practiced spell caster will benefit spells cast from both scrolls and memory, while concentration only benefits those few spells that can be cast from memory. (And it's probably better to disengage from combat and rebuff oneself than to rebuff in the mist of battle...)

In any event, I agree with you on most points. Thanks.

Your skill (net) level depends on what you want to do with it for a given campaign. (..For PvP it's a bit different.)

Listen is good for detecting Invisible opponents that are moving/doing something, or detecting moving hidden opponents. Spot is good for detecting hidden opponents (..moving or not), and "spotting" feints and pick-pocketing. In the campaigns I really can't think of any feint or pick-pocketing opponents. Also, I can't think of any situation where you would be able to *spot* a non-moving opponent that is hidden (..in that those very few that are "waiting", and usually have a better hide skill than your spot skill.) Of course 98% aren't "waiting", rather they are moving to attack you. (..the one exception that I can think of are the Bane "Agents" in the Bane compound in SOZ. They often actually wait to strike you as you pass-by.)

For UMD the Assassin build has 2 levels and currently a net UMD of around 22. Some of the 9th level Arcane spells I can cast, and some aren't. The wikia's description is NOT correct (or at least is not totally correct).

You may need Scribe Scroll to get any benefit from scroll casting. The alternative is getting other party members to select scribe scroll and having them cast the scrolls for you. Note though that it's a very wide assortment of spells, some of which can only be cast by Bards.

Frankly though if you "take" a little from UMD and from Spot you should be able to get Concentration up enough to be useful. And practically speaking, you should be able to put-off Concentration points until a bit before level 16.

Thanks for the comments, but let's set the context:

First of all, the build is designed for PvP, or else spot and listen skills doesn't make too much sense.

Secondly, you seem to imply that Listen is better than Spot -> it's better to sacrifice Spot for concentration, than to sacrifice Listen. But then you mentioned Spot being the counter skill against feint, which gives a opposite conclusion. I'm confused.

3) I searched on the web, and I discovered (from the very few posts concerning the topic- I think it was on the bioware forums. One of the posters raised the example of PC A: having high Listen, and PC B having high Hide skill. B is standing still.) that Hide and MoveSilently ARE COMBINED into a single stealth action, which can be broken by either Listen or Spot. That is if you have high Hide skill and no MS, you will still be "Listened" even while you are standing there doing nothing. Same goes with having a high MS skill, and being "Spot" while moving.

3a)High Listen and Spot skills, however, do not seem to affect sneak attacks (catching the opponent flat footed) right after leaving the shadows.

3b) this bring me to the conclusion that have either Listen/ Spot skill is enough. having both skills only makes it easier to detect. Now I am thinking of slashing both Listening and UMD skills (to 18), to max up Concentration (33). What's your opinion? Should I take Concentration to Max, and slashing both Listen skill and UMD, or should I bump concentration to only 16, and slashing only UMD?

4) Sorry for the nitpicking. This is becoming a habit of me. For me as a bard, with a UMD of 23, I am able to cast most spells. But for arcane spells, I need to reach 27 to cast premonition (I tested this), and I'm assuming I need 29 to cast level 9 spells. Therefore, a base UMD skill of arround 18/20, should be sufficient.

5)Of course I will get my other party members to scribe scrolls and craft wands for me. I made Safya to scribe and craft(and possessing UMD), and the others to scribe scrolls. I wonder if she can craft a wand with a spell that she cannot memorize...we'll see

6)I did some testing (though not very extensive) on Blind Fight, and figured that it might not work as the same as wikia suggests. For melee, 3 attacks per round, the Concealment chance for a 50% Concealed critter is indeed 50%*50%=25%. But for me as a rapid shot/many shot ranger (notching 4 arrows per round), the figures show that it's somewhere arround 33%. I'm guessing that the "free attack" might not benefit from the blind fight feat, which makes (50%+25%+25%+25%)/4= 5/16 (slightly below 33%). I don't have time to rectify this though.

6a)That being said, blind fight is still worth taking a feat over epic prowess, since there is no substitute fighting against concealed opponents. And in PvP, one can expect the smart opponents to be all concealed, and all critically immue.

mbz wrote:Thanks for the comments, but let's set the context:

First of all, the build is designed for PvP, or else spot and listen skills doesn't make too much sense.

Secondly, you seem to imply that Listen is better than Spot -> it's better to sacrifice Spot for concentration, than to sacrifice Listen. But then you mentioned Spot being the counter skill against feint, which gives a opposite conclusion. I'm confused.

3) I searched on the web, and I discovered (from the very few posts concerning the topic- I think it was on the bioware forums. One of the posters raised the example of PC A: having high Listen, and PC B having high Hide skill. B is standing still.) that Hide and MoveSilently ARE COMBINED into a single stealth action, which can be broken by either Listen or Spot. That is if you have high Hide skill and no MS, you will still be "Listened" even while you are standing there doing nothing. Same goes with having a high MS skill, and being "Spot" while moving.

3a)High Listen and Spot skills, however, do not seem to affect sneak attacks (catching the opponent flat footed) right after leaving the shadows.

3b) this bring me to the conclusion that have either Listen/ Spot skill is enough. having both skills only makes it easier to detect. Now I am thinking of slashing both Listening and UMD skills (to 18), to max up Concentration (33). What's your opinion? Should I take Concentration to Max, and slashing both Listen skill and UMD, or should I bump concentration to only 16, and slashing only UMD?

4) Sorry for the nitpicking. This is becoming a habit of me. For me as a bard, with a UMD of 23, I am able to cast most spells. But for arcane spells, I need to reach 27 to cast premonition (I tested this), and I'm assuming I need 29 to cast level 9 spells. Therefore, a base UMD skill of arround 18/20, should be sufficient.

5)Of course I will get my other party members to scribe scrolls and craft wands for me. I made Safya to scribe and craft(and possessing UMD), and the others to scribe scrolls. I wonder if she can craft a wand with a spell that she cannot memorize...we'll see

6)I did some testing (though not very extensive) on Blind Fight, and figured that it might not work as the same as wikia suggests. For melee, 3 attacks per round, the Concealment chance for a 50% Concealed critter is indeed 50%*50%=25%. But for me as a rapid shot/many shot ranger (notching 4 arrows per round), the figures show that it's somewhere arround 33%. I'm guessing that the "free attack" might not benefit from the blind fight feat, which makes (50%+25%+25%+25%)/4= 5/16 (slightly below 33%). I don't have time to rectify this though.

6a)That being said, blind fight is still worth taking a feat over epic prowess, since there is no substitute fighting against concealed opponents. And in PvP, one can expect the smart opponents to be all concealed, and all critically immue.

1 & 3b. IF it's for PvP.. the definitely have Spot and Listen maxed. UMD can be lowered down to what ever level gets you the equipment you want (..and forget about casting spells that aren't in your Bard list). Concentration should be a net 18 (or higher). When casting a spell you should:

A. Be in Denfensive Casting Mode to avoid attacks of opportunity, and
B. Have as high an AC as possible WITH preferably a concealment bonus.

Basically a Concentration net of 18 with a max of 3rd level spells isn't going to be "broken" (or fail) due to anything but high damage to your character (..or a critical).


2. In PvP Spot becomes more important. Essentially you should have equipment that gives either a "Blindsight" or "Trueseeing" spell, OR invisibility purge/dust of appearance. Once you have that Listen becomes a "back-up" to Spot. That "Back-up" however is still important collectively for spotting hidden opponents, so don't skimp on it either. (..my previous statements concerned the campaigns.)


3. Yes, Spot and Listen checks are combined as a "Stealth Check". And actually it's the Stealth check (which signals for a Spot and Listen check), followed the next second by Spot vs. Hide and Listen vs. Move Silently to determine detection.

Detect mode (or Search Mode), gives the detector a d20 roll vs. the opponents stealth d20 roll. If you are NOT in Detect mode then you only have a d10 roll. Furthermore, if you are in Detect mode then you get the roll every second.. same as an Elf (..though with the "slowing" effect that an Elf doesn't have). Of course if you are in Detect Mode then the Stealth check and Spot/Listen checks "ride" on top of each other, essentially making it appear that it's one check. (i.e. Engage Detect mode: Stealth, Spot/Listen & Stealth, Spot/Listen & Stealth, Spot/Listen & Stealth.. etc..)

3a. Correct. Just the fact that you are successfully in Stealth Mode or Invisible (regardless if they can detect you or not), creates a *potential* "flat-footed" attack opportunity. So does a successful feint. This is critical for a Rogue, not simply because of Sneak Attack damage, but because of the opponents loss of Dexterity and Dodge AC bonuses. Note that Invisibility Purge removes this opportunity. Also, with the exception of Feint, the opponent can't be in combat mode. You can of course still get Sneak Attack damage even if the opponent is in combat mode.. BUT you don't get the "flat-footed" effective attack bonus unless it's a successful Feint.

3b. Either a high Spot or Listen may be enough.. BUT the bonuses underlying the calculations are unknown - so it's best to have both. To a degree (potentially 10 points to be precise), Detect mode (or Elf race) can offset this - perhaps allowing for only one maxed skill with augmentation for a PvP environment. (..and of those Spot would be the preference.)

4. Don't assume. Again, my Bard can cast some 9th level spells (Crushing Hand) at around a 22-23 net UMD, but can't cast other spells that are even lower in level - which includes Premonition. Frankly I don't have a clue what's going on with UMD, particularly because there are some low level spells (i.e. level 4 and less) in the Cleric/Druid grouping that I still can't cast with a net 26 in UMD.

5. Relying on others in PvP doesn't "cut-it". Perfectly acceptable for the campaigns of course.

6. Blind Fight still works with ranged weapons, rather it's the range/spotting that counts.

:laugh:
Great. Now with the picture you've drawn I think I have everything planned out.
-My net concentration will be in the low 20's, with Listen and Spot maxed.
-You said invisibility purge will be break the rougue's instant sneak attacks. Do see invibility, blind sight, and True Seing have the same function? I have an amulet that gives me constant True Seeing...I believe that true seeing outclasses see invisibility and blind sight.

By the time I was writing my last post, I've just painstakingly discovered that I'm in my epic levels, and my fighter bonus feat cannot be used to take practiced spell caster (it was originally planned to take epic proweress) . . Had to leave it there and catch up with some work before reverting to an ealier save (take practiced before taking blind fight). When the orginal plan changes, everything changes.

mbz wrote::laugh:
Great. Now with the picture you've drawn I think I have everything planned out.
-My net concentration will be in the low 20's, with Listen and Spot maxed.
-You said invisibility purge will be break the rougue's instant sneak attacks. Do see invibility, blind sight, and True Seing have the same function? I have an amulet that gives me constant True Seeing...I believe that true seeing outclasses see invisibility and blind sight.

By the time I was writing my last post, I've just painstakingly discovered that I'm in my epic levels, and my fighter bonus feat cannot be used to take practiced spell caster (it was originally planned to take epic proweress) . . Had to leave it there and catch up with some work before reverting to an ealier save (take practiced before taking blind fight). When the orginal plan changes, everything changes.

No, invisibility purge only purges invisibility. (..and regrettably dust of appearance is exactly the same.)

Nothing breaks stealth other than the opponent performing an action that breaks stealth. (..actually a successful knockdown might.. don't know about that.)

(..In fact because of this it's a good way to get a concealment bonus (50%) for "free" even if they can target you (..because of Spot or Listen or Sniff). If you have regen equipment on you just hide and make sure your character doesn't start attacking. )

True-seeing & Blindsight doesn't do anything for this, only Spot and Listen (for your character). (..True-seeing is particularly good against mirror image and Blindsight isn't.)

On the other hand with amplify and CC you should be in good shape as long as Spot is maxed and Listen is at least *nearly* maxed. (..and remember that you can always boost them a bit more with something as simple as an Owl's Wisdom potion - which gives +2.)

Suggestion:

Change the two levels of Greater Dexterity to Practiced Spell Caster and Armor Skin. The only negative then would be -1 to attack and -1 to Reflex saves. In the campaigns that shouldn't be a problem.

"(..In fact because of this it's a good way to get a concealment bonus (50%) for "free" even if they can target you (..because of Spot or Listen or Sniff). If you have regen equipment on you just hide and make sure your character doesn't start attacking. )"

This is just plain cheese. haha. I love cheese (within the rules of the game). I fondled with cheese since playing Baldur's Gate II.

"Suggestion:
Change the two levels of Greater Dexterity to Practiced Spell Caster and Armor Skin. The only negative then would be -1 to attack and -1 to Reflex saves. In the campaigns that shouldn't be a problem. "

I would love to. But then I have to give up One Shot, since it requires a DEX of 27. I can imagine how good One Shot is in disrupting enemy spell casting...
IMO, a feat tight build is a near optimum build. And if I were to give up One Shot, I should be taking Luck of Heros in the first place since I have an extra feat...

mbz wrote: I would love to. But then I have to give up One Shot, since it requires a DEX of 27. I can imagine how good One Shot is in disrupting enemy spell casting...
IMO, a feat tight build is a near optimum build. And if I were to give up One Shot, I should be taking Luck of Heros in the first place since I have an extra feat...

Yup.. didn't see that.

One Shot isn't that great. I think it provides about 90 damage (assuming it isn't parried), BUT the cool-down is a whole minute.

If you have *2* One Shot's it's effectiveness goes way up. This is largely because of opponent's hit-points. Opponents (even weak ones) will almost never be killed with a single One Shot. Two can usually do the job on a weak opponent, or get you a small percentage of the way there on a really high hit-point opponent (like a red dragon).

Luck of Heroes is available at character creation, not later.

Gosh.. if I have 2 One shots then the game would be totally unbalanced..90 damage is more than enough to disrupt enemy spell casting (the bigby's...the range is ridiculous) before hiding back into shadows. The trick is to stay as far as I can, sneak attack, run, one shot, hide. Even so I still have a high chance of losing against a sorceror with high listen skills (my "undead sorceror build"). Of course without the enemy's anti-skills, I can simply hide and wait 1 minute, leave shadows, wait until enemy casts, one shot. This way I will eventually deplete the enemy's spell reserve. If the ring of leeched abjuration is allowed, I wouldn't worry about anything.

Against fearsome melee opponents, I have boots of the sturdy feet of pim against knockdown, self crafted armor against criticals, and basically elemental immunity from the damage effects. On top of that, concealment+ MI.

Against Stealthy archery opponents, I have better anti-stealth abilities thanks to amplify (and hats off to your idea of using the bard) and keen senses. I also have more buffs.

Thanks a lot for your comments!