@CE and anyone who wants to see me banned.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:35 pm

Originally posted by Mr Sleep:
 pay attention to my words in the future, please people if you have a problem with a member put it in a PM.

This post may get me banned, but I feel it is necessary to post this. I have been attacked verbally(not that there is any other way to attack on a message board) when I did not deserve to be attacked. The moderator Mr Sleep also participated in this attack, though to a lesser degree and was also attempting to moderate it.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
SS, stating that you believe you are a genious is never a substitute for valid arguments. I know you think you are a genious, you have told me that at least at 3 occations. You have posted previously that you are a physicist although you haven't even taken a physics class and you believe Quantum mechanics annihilate the laws of maths. You have also stated that you are a scientist, although you are a college student and you lack knowledge about basics concepts used by scientist and you don't even know what Nature or Science is.

I don't use "I'm a genius" to replace arguements. I have never done so and I won't ever do so. I have no reason to do so. You're right that I've never taken a physics course. Yes, I've stated so numerous times. You know why I have not yet taken a physics class? It certainly was not by choice. I skipped the 11th and 12th grades of high school and went straight to college. Physics is a 12th grade class over here. Trig is an 11th or 12th grade class over here and one must have taken a Trig class before they can take a Calculus class. Calculus has to be taken in conjunction with Physics at colleges here. I almost failed Trig last semester. I got a D. Because of that, I have to either take Trig again or take pre-cal. Once I've done that, I can take a physics class. The college I'm at won't be offering pre-cal until next semester. I can't stand the Trig professor and I don't like Trig, so I chose to wait 1 semester to and take pre-cal. However, I have done the best I can to make up for my having not taken a physics class. I have read A Brief History of Time; Black Holes, Baby Universes, and Other Short Essays(by Stephen Hawking); Theories of Relativity and other short essays by Einstein; Newton's book or books(it's been about 3 years since I read them, I read so many physics books at the time, it is hard to keep straight which ones are which); and I have read books by other physicists who's names I don't remember at the moment. I can't just look at the book and tell you either, because I chekced these books out from the library and read them.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
SS, using self proclaimed titles in order to give higher credibility is not working - serious debates must be conducted with real arguments that is connected to the issue one is discussing.

I am not using these damn titles to give myself a higher credibility! I use serious arguements that are connected to the issue, but you and fable ignore half of what I say! You call that debating? Debating is something I do have credibility on, whether you believe it or not. I have been debating things all my life and I win, not with any damn titles, but by seriously debating.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
You don't want to learn about science right now.

Where the heck did you get that idea? If I didn't want to learn about science, would I be checking out books from the library on physics? Would I have requested to do a term paper that wasn't even going to be assigned in my English class in 9th grade and request to be allowed to write the paper on Quantum Field Theory if I didn't want to learn about science? I have had a passion for learning, especially science, all my life!

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Perhaps you will, in the future, and then I wish you good luck. I really believe you are a talanted young girl - don't waste your talent by refusing to take in knowledge.

You obviously don't know me very well, CE, or you would never have associated refusal to take in knowledge with me. I have never refused to take in knowledge and I never will. I love to learn. Even the subjects I don't like, I enjoy learning about. I absolutely hate botany, but I still enjoyed learning about it in 10th grade.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
The difference between science as a field where professional trained scientist work and popular science, is very large. Should you choose a career in science in the future, you will know then.

Again, you don't know me very well. Should I choose a career in science? I have chosen a career. My plan is to get my B.S. in physics, Master's degree in physics, then Ph.D. in physics. I plan on being a researcher in the fields of Gravitational Physics, Temporal physics, and optical physics. I've already formulated and written down a theory of multiple dimensions of time, based upon and expanded from Hawking's ideas of imaginary time. I've also got a ftl theory in building in my head. There is still more that I need to learn before I can complete it. I'll also need a mathematician to help with the mathematical aspects of it. I can say this about my ftl theory. It works, in theory. I hope to some day put the theory into practice.

Originally posted by Weasel:
 (1)If Bonechewer is a genius...everyone is.

Except that genius is relative, especially when using the second definition. In his time, Bonechewer was a genius. In our time, he’d likely be considered an idiot for using a rock instead of a gun. “Someone who sees things in ways that no one else yet sees them.”

Edit: I did not mean to say that CE wanted me banned. The topic title was, for the most part, sarcastic, particularly the "who wants to see me banned" part.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Sailor Saturn ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:40 pm

Forgot to respond to this and it is not easy to edit that long a post.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
you believe Quantum mechanics annihilate the laws of maths

I do not believe that. I know that in certain situations, all laws break down. This includes math. These situations are things such as within a Quantum Singularity. I was refering to Quantum Mechanical effects on probability and you're taking what I said out of context and mismatching it in a feeble attempt to descredit me. Perhaps you didn't mean to do this, but you did.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:41 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
“Someone who sees things in ways that no one else yet sees them.”

Is a visionary.....doesn't make him/her a genius.

As for you being banned..it has no bearing on me. If you want to be banned...fine, if you don't fine.

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:50 pm

Posted by SS -

As for the first 'definition,' I took an official IQ test and, according to it, I am a genius. BTW, IQ tests supposed to measure one's ability to learn. Someone with a low IQ may be able to learn as much as someone with a high IQ, they just have to work harder at it.

I have also done official IQ tests. In which case I am also a genius.

though I do not use this as a barrier to learning. The best teacher is the open mind.

Posted by SS -

I know why it is and I stated why. That is all I was doing with those statements. I was not trying to say I'm superior and I never once said that I am. If you inferred that that is what I was saying, then that is your own flucking fault.

IMHO, you may not have directly stated it, but you have inferred that certain discussions may confuse the layman lurker.

Posted by Weasel -

Does someone have to take a test to be a genius?

LMAO!!

Actually I can pass a test but it means nothing in the scheme of things

Posted by SS -

Going on the possibly flawed assumption that this is directed at me, I was attacked first. I have merely responded to unfair and unprovoked attacks.

Actually - I considered Mr Sleep's comments to be directed at all. So I am anticipating a wrist slap to be general.

Posted by SS -

As I have already said several times, I was not trying to "boost my authority" with the statement of me being a genius. I was merely making a comment about the fact that I think in a different way than everyone else.

And thankfully so do we all - the world would be a tiresome and non-productive place if we all thought the same.

Posted by C E -

A genius to me, is an extraordinarily brilliant person who has made great contribution to science, art or other important areas. Scoring high on an IQ test says nothing about this, IQ tests only measure current educational level and aptitude to study in the Western educational system. Most people I know have scored "genious" level in IQ tests - it's not especially unusual.

So you shoot my IQ down in flames

Ah well!! never gave it that much thought anyway

Posted by SS -

The moderator Mr Sleep also participated in this attack, though to a lesser degree and was also attempting to moderate it.

I would disagree with this comment. Mr Sleep has a responsibility to all that post here.

Posted by SS -

I use serious arguements that are connected to the issue, but you and fable ignore half of what I say! You call that debating? Debating is something I do have credibility on, whether you believe it or not. I have been debating things all my life and I win, not with any damn titles, but by seriously debating.

Again I disagree. I do not for one minute believe that CE and Fable have ignored your debate. You claim quite often that people do not read all of your posts - these people you refer to I have full confidence do.

I have never read a post by these two that was not well researched, why would they ignore half of what you say? What reasons would they have? Here I believe you lose credibility. If either of these two people have queries about a subject, I have never seen them do other than research and respond.

Posted by SS -

Again, you don't know me very well. Should I choose a career in science? I have chosen a career. My plan is to get my B.S. in physics, Master's degree in physics, then Ph.D. in physics. I plan on being a researcher in the fields of Gravitational Physics, Temporal physics, and optical physics. I've already formulated and written down a theory of multiple dimensions of time, based upon and expanded from Hawking's ideas of imaginary time. I've also got a ftl theory in building in my head. There is still more that I need to learn before I can complete it. I'll also need a mathematician to help with the mathematical aspects of it. I can say this about my ftl theory. It works, in theory. I hope to some day put the theory into practice.

I wish you all the best, genuinely

In all fairness SS, you have come in here with attitude. I honestly believe you to be a very bright person, but more important than intelligence is wisdom. I do not profess to have either, but just judging by the responses in here tonight I would be sure to learn something.

You do carry a superior air, you do look down your nose at all that disagree. You proclaim to learn, but I wonder if you have? or even if you will...

Sometimes humility is more treasured than prowess.

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:57 pm

Originally posted by Yshania:


Sometimes humility is more treasured than prowess.

Where were you when I decided to get married??

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 2:58 pm

@Weasel - across the pond

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:00 pm

I've been told by psychologists, teachers, my parents, and numerous other people that I'm a genius. I would greatly appreciate an apology for this rude and rather idiotic assumption.

Those psychologists, teachers, etc. have done you no favors by inflating your ego. My advice it to allow your genius, if it exists, to speak for itself. You will get no apology for, nor did I make any ‘assumption.’ I made an analogy, and as such, one that I felt was relevant.

I was not introducing any new definitions. And the "marching to their own drummer" thing was refering to the way I think. It had nothing to do with any damn definitions. I don't ****ing care if you agree with me on the whole damn belief/theory thing.

It’s not just that I don’t agree with you, I gave you cited argument showing how you were incorrect. Can you do the same? If you would listen, there are people here whom you could learn from. Suggestion number two is to accept that you are not always correct, and learn when the opportunity presents.

*shakes her head* I made no such mistake. You're the one assuming things that ain't true. I was not trying to add weight to my arguements. I was trying to end the damn discussion by explaining that I think differently than everyone else…

A truly gifted scientist can not only see things in way others cannot, but also state their observations so others can understand. Otherwise, what good would these thoughts be forever locked in the head of the observer? Once again, you cannot effectively end an argument by declaring you are a genius… does this sound familiar?

I regret the piling on that took place after I left. I hope it does not continue, despite your tone here. Your ideas, methods, and debating style are in need of refinement, but I have no ill feeling towards you as a person. You are young, and I hope you continue to grow and learn. One day you may well *be* a scientist; for now you have much learning to do.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Waverly ]

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:00 pm

Yshania writes:
Again I disagree. I do not for one minute believe that CE and Fable have ignored your debate. You claim quite often that people do not read all of your posts - these people you refer to I have full confidence do.

Quite right, @Yshania.

@SS, I've gotten a strident feeling regularly from your posts, as though you feel you aren't taken seriously, and must demand it. This results in sarcasm and rudeness on your part, and in some statements--such as this lengthy thread about claims of genius--which do not do you, or your gifts, any credit.

I mean what I'm saying, here, and there's no ulterior motive to my remarks about "gifts." I think you are creative, intelligent, ambitious in desiring to shine, and have a gift for the use of words. I also think you need to get away from the computer and think about your goals, and how you're going to achieve 'em. Attacking CE, myself, or anybody else must point to some external cause for distress on your part which is properly none of our business, but still touches all of us who know you.

Please don't sneer at what I've written, and give it some serious, quiet thought.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:03 pm

BTW Where on earth had CE ever been anything but kind and patient? There are far more savage animals lurking about than CE… (though few can match her grace and intelligence

)

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:03 pm

@SS: Why do you state in the title of this thread that I want you banned? I think I have spent more time than anyone else on this board discussing with you. It's a premature conclusion to believe I want you banned because I disagree with much of your opinions and becuase I argue for why I disagree with them.

Also, I invited you to continue the evolution/creationism debate at a message board that are specialised in scientific debate, but you didn't even anwer to my suggestion.

In you reply posts to me in the other thread, you did not adress most of the issues I had mentioned in my post. You have called me hypocrite, close-minded, not a real scientist, and you have been saying my posts are pointless. Why on earth do you think I haven't tried to get you banned because of this?

BECAUSE I THOUGHT YOU SERIOUSLY WANTED TO LEARN and that you were seriously interested in discussion. However, there is a risk that Buck will ban you for personal attack on me because of the accusation in your topic title, so I suggest you edit it.

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:03 pm

Originally posted by Weasel:
Is a visionary.....doesn't make him/her a genius.

As for you being banned..it has no bearing on me. If you want to be banned...fine, if you don't fine.

@Weasel: Being a visionary doesn't mean they aren't a genius, and I think that was what SS was going for. She made that statement to show that geniuses are those with ideas, not just people who have taken others work, and taken he next step.

As someone once said, and I beleive this was the same point SS was stressing. "You've seen what others have done, and you've taken it to the next level. You haven't spent the time to learn, to memorize it and to understand. You've taken someones work, and made it your own by adding to it."

@Ysh: You, of all people, should know that IQ testing, these days, mean almost squat in the long run. So many people are breaching the genius level, that the level has become common. How can that be genius? What you've gone and done is said SS is just giving herself the title of genius, butyou didn't even bother to ask what she scored on the test. Maybe just barely got genius level, or maybe she blew it out of the water. You jumped the gun on the IQ comments, something that isn't quite like you, from what I know of you.

Also, you and Fable have ignored comments and points posted, by not only SS, but by myself and others who have before attempted to enter debates. Wheter it is intentional or not, I'm not sure, but it does happen.

Lastly, yes, SS did come here with attitude, but so did Ubik, gruntboy, myself and others. We all come into this place with attitude, but why is her's so intolerable?

@SS: Your not escaping me either, because your not just a victim. You have made some strong arguemnets, and have raised some doubtful facts, sometimes without even backing them up. That, in turn, has caused problems like this. you came in, guns blazing, and maybe, just maybe, you bit off a little too much. It happens, and it may've happened to you. You have a strong attitude, strong veiws and thoughts, and a very independant mind, and those are all admirable aspects, but they can cause trouble if your high strung, or agrivated, and I think that's what happend here.

@All: Personally, this topic should've ended with Sleep closing that other thread. Even though I am not an official moderator of this forum, I am going to helping both Sleep and T big time now. In the recent past, we have had a litte too many outbursts, granted some were caused by myself.

@Sleep: I ask that you close this thread, as to quell any further hostilites. Let them deal with any further problems over email or PM.

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:05 pm

Originally posted by Yshania:
Again I disagree. I do not for one minute believe that CE and Fable have ignored your debate. You claim quite often that people do not read all of your posts - these people you refer to I have full confidence do.

I have never read a post by these two that was not well researched, why would they ignore half of what you say? What reasons would they have? Here I believe you lose credibility. If either of these two people have queries about a subject, I have never seen them do other than research and respond.

Yes, they do a lot of research, but look back at the topic in which fable and I discusses Christian mysticism. While that turned out to be a misunderstanding on my part, there were many questions that I asked repeatedly and fable never answered or even commented on them. One of these was when I asked him what authority he has to tell me, a Christian, what Christians believe; especially since he thinks that my being a Christian doesn't give me the authority to say what Christians believe. He also ignored me when I answered his "when you becomes a spokesperson for Christianity" by showing that I am one, as is every Christian. I had to dedicate a post completely to asking him to post his list of books and even then all I got was a list of authors, which was acceptable. He said that with all the stuff being discussed, somethings are going to be forgotten about; but I find it highly questionable when looking at the specific things. CE doesn't do this to the extent that fable does, but she does do it sometimes.

My question is what gives her the right to tell me I don't know how to debate when she doesn't even debate right, according to her own standards of debating?

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:08 pm

posted by Yshania:
So you shoot my IQ down in flames Ah well!! never gave it that much thought anyway

Pow!

My own as well - I've done many IQ tests as a school kid, my first was 200, which is far above "genious" level and also a result of the IQ tests being flawed in construction. (Your "test score" age/your real age * 100. So if you are 5 and score as an average 10 year old, that gives you IQ 200.)

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:11 pm

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Yes, they do a lot of research, but look back at the topic in which fable and I discusses Christian mysticism. While that turned out to be a misunderstanding on my part, there were many questions that I asked repeatedly and fable never answered or even commented on them. One of these was when I asked him what authority he has to tell me, a Christian, what Christians believe; especially since he thinks that my being a Christian doesn't give me the authority to say what Christians believe. He also ignored me when I answered his "when you becomes a spokesperson for Christianity" by showing that I am one, as is every Christian. I had to dedicate a post completely to asking him to post his list of books and even then all I got was a list of authors, which was acceptable. He said that with all the stuff being discussed, somethings are going to be forgotten about; but I find it highly questionable when looking at the specific things. CE doesn't do this to the extent that fable does, but she does do it sometimes.

My question is what gives her the right to tell me I don't know how to debate when she doesn't even debate right, according to her own standards of debating?

Peace, SS, peace. Don't go flaring right now. Being an avid debater, I know what it's like when you get into a massive one, that your really into. People can get wrapped up so much, that they tend to listen to the prime debate. Once that is done, most debaters go back to finish up. Sometimes they do that, other times they don't.

They are only human, remember. If you have a problem with them not cutting you in, them PM them with your comment, and you'll get a direct response. Don't stow it away, and blow up like in this thread.

fable · Post by **fable** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:16 pm

Sailor Saturn writes:
He also ignored me when I answered his "when you becomes a spokesperson for Christianity" by showing that I am one, as is every Christian. I had to dedicate a post completely to asking him to post his list of books and even then all I got was a list of authors, which was acceptable. He said that with all the stuff being discussed, somethings are going to be forgotten about; but I find it highly questionable when looking at the specific things.

@SS, please, stop and ask yourself whether brooding over and rearranging reality in this fashion is really doing a bit of good. I posted *two* lists to you, one with some titles, and I explained that I was giving you authors because titles change in some cases (I even gave you an instance of this with Pastor Neimoller's work), and many different titles of equal weight are available. All of this is available for anybody to read, should they want to.

You don't need to shore up your credibility. You don't need to prove anything, not to me, not to CE, nor anybody else. All you need to do is take pride in yourself. Forget about claims to genius; be yourself. You're quite likeable for who you are. And I would be fascinated to see how you change and grow over the next decade.

Please, step back.

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:17 pm

Originally posted by Aegis:


@All: Personally, this topic should've ended with Sleep closing that other thread. Even though I am not an official moderator of this forum, I am going to helping both Sleep and T big time now. In the recent past, we have had a litte too many outbursts, granted some were caused by myself.

I believe what you are doing is underminding any authority that Mr.Sleep or Ms. T has here in this forum.

You were not made a moderator of this forum. If Buck thought they need help he would have appointed you.

Your statement seems to imply ..."since I'm helping nothing will go wrong"

Waverly · Post by **Waverly** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:21 pm

Even though I am not an official moderator of this forum, I am going to helping both Sleep and T big time now

Eh? This cannot be good. Not good at all.

@Weasel: I have nothing useful to add, but I just wanted to say hello. BTW nice use of the

Yshania · Post by **Yshania** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:21 pm

Posted by Aegis -

@Ysh: You, of all people, should know that IQ testing, these days, mean almost squat in the long run. So many people are breaching the genius level, that the level has become common. How can that be genius? What you've gone and done is said SS is just giving herself the title of genius, butyou didn't even bother to ask what she scored on the test. Maybe just barely got genius level, or maybe she blew it out of the water. You jumped the gun on the IQ comments, something that isn't quite like you, from what I know of you.

I am sorry to disappoint you Aegis. Why me of all people? Where are my qualifications? where did I ever state I held any belief in IQ testing? Do we agree then that they are useless? What I did was offer the opinion that I hold no belief in IQ tests, hence I did not ask SS her IQ level in respect of tests. I could bump a discussion on this if you wish....

I did not state SS had given herself genius IQ, she stated that herself. So now you wonder whether I should have asked her IQ level - which angle are you coming from Aegis? are IQ levels relevant or not?

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:26 pm

Originally posted by Waverly:
Eh? This cannot be good. Not good at all.

@Weasel: I have nothing useful to add, but I just wanted to say hello. BTW nice use of the

I try

One day I will be at your level

Then it will be rematch time.

(Glad to see you dropped by

)

[ 10-15-2001: Message edited by: Weasel ]

Aegis · Post by **Aegis** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:28 pm

@Ysh: funny... I compliment you, and I get flamed. In the time I have known you, and CE, and Fable, and everyone else on this board, you have all proven just how intelligent and reasonable you all are. I was saying that someone like you would see how the bar has been raised, and that IQ testing no longer profiencient in measuring intelligence, and the ability to learn.