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OK... so I am considering a reinstall of the game.
As I was researching mod updates and the like I came across the highly recommended and much vaunted Unofficial Oblivion Patch. It looks as though it is probably in the "essential" category.. But here is my problem..
The Unofficial patch team states:

The Unofficial Oblivion Patches fixes a few textures and to get these fixed textures to appear in-game you'll need to use ArchiveInvalidation; we recommend using ArchiveInvalidation Invalidated!

Alright... so off I went to grab ArchiveInvalidation Invalidated because I have read that Oblivion's default ArchiveInvalidation doesn't really work, and I read:

Some mods like "Francesco's leveled creatures/items mod" register its BSA's in the Oblivion.ini, after installing this mod you will lose those BSA entries and will have to add them back in.

That's very nice, but the author does not actually explain how to "put them back in."

Now, apparently the Oblivion Mod Manager can also fix BSA issues, as explained [url="http://devnull.devakm.googlepages.com/archiveinvalidation"]here[/url].

So...uhm... Help?
Should I just use the Oblivion Mod Manager instead of ArchiveInvalidation Invalidated? Or, if not, than how the Hell do I restore the BSA entries from Francesco's that ArchiveInvalidation Invalidated removes?

*sigh* I really, really wish the Elderscrolls games didn't require this much work prior to actually playing them....

I never bothered with the ArchiveInvalidation business. As I recall, that's no longer an issue. My suggestion? Ignore it.

fable wrote:I never bothered with the ArchiveInvalidation business. As I recall, that's no longer an issue. My suggestion? Ignore it.

So, just install the Unofficial patch as per the readme along with Francesco's and disregard everything else?

I did do some looking around and didn't find anything about it no longer being an issue, was it fixed with the GOTY edition?

I could be wrong, but that's what I recall reading. Still, you might want to look at this article, though I've installed over 100 mods, at least 20 of them very large quests and many other texture replacers, without this problem. (Knock on genuine wood!) I'm also using Francesco's, but haven't received any popup messages indicating ArchiveInvalidation problems.

fable wrote:I could be wrong, but that's what I recall reading. Still, you might want to look at this article, though I've installed over 100 mods, at least 20 of them very large quests and many other texture replacers, without this problem. (Knock on genuine wood!)

OK, thanks...
lol, I read that page you linked to, in fact I included it in my initial post to this thread It gives a lot of useful information, and unlike the authors of certain utilities that shall remain nameless... dev_akm explains the technical necessities very well.

The thing I find about Oblivion, as opposed to Morrowind, is that while it tends to be much more stable with a lot of mods installed, somehow it also seems to take a lot more effort to get it up and running. Or maybe it's just me...

Dev_akm is an excellent technical modder, and extremely helpful. He also has a regularly updated meta-list of Oblivion quest mods, with links.

I don't really think there's that much to get Oblivion setup, except that omods (if you choose to use them) require a bit more effort. But neither Wrye Bash nor the Oblivion Mod Manager are challenging. What do you find specifically problematic?

I installed the unofficial patch plus a few other mods and never encountered some ArchiveInvalidation issue as far as I can remember (or any other issues). The only time my game crashed was because of I installed some NPCs in cities mods and unchecked them in the mod manager as a result.

dragon wench wrote:The thing I find about Oblivion, as opposed to Morrowind, is that while it tends to be much more stable with a lot of mods installed, somehow it also seems to take a lot more effort to get it up and running. Or maybe it's just me...

Very troublesome to install the mods, if you ask me. Had gone through something similar in other games like Resident Evil 4 and STALKER when it comes to mods.

@Fable,
I just find Wrye Mash/Bash to be less than straightforward at times, but admittedly, I find a lot of that highly detailed, technical stuff to be a headache..

@Des,
the problem is that I find the ES games unplayable without mods.. *sigh*

I really miss games like BG2 where mods simply enhance the experience if you've played the game through umpteen times, yet they aren't necessary to actually enjoy gameplay..
Once I updated to the EE version, and sorted through the various patching issues, The Witcher was fine. It was kind of refreshing actually, to be able to enjoy a game more or less directly out of the box.
But I digress..

dragon wench wrote: @Des,
the problem is that I find the ES games unplayable without mods.. *sigh*

I really miss games like BG2 where mods simply enhance the experience if you've played the game through umpteen times, yet they aren't necessary to actually enjoy gameplay..
Once I updated to the EE version, and sorted through the various patching issues, The Witcher was fine. It was kind of refreshing actually, to be able to enjoy a game more or less directly out of the box.
But I digress..

It is of little wonder why I don't enjoy these mod-required games compared to those that don't need them at all. I sometimes wonder how lazy these developers can be...

To Mod Or Not To Mod, That Is The Question!

Hello, Dragon Wench & Friends!

Well I already told how I was introduced to the game and why I wanted to play it. Now to compare non-mod to modded.

On my computer I didn't even start playing it without mods, because it was the ability to have the "Topless Mod" installed that attracted me to the game in the first place.

However, my brother happens to have the X-Box version, and to avoid boredom and to appease my curiosity, I played it too.

My PC went through several upgrades, so many in fact, it isn't even the same one that I had when I first got the game. My monitor then was tiny in comparison. Now it is an LCD, widescreen, HDTV ready one. From having a white or black filled picture with only working sound to having what may be what they had in mind, is a big difference in picture quality and sound.

Side Note: To appease my Elvis Presley curiosity about what it is like to shoot a TV set, I used my old monitors for target practice and took pictures of the results. That was before someone offered up a recycling service for them. Oh, I also shot my old TV set too. But visions of "The Brave Little Toaster" spoiled the experience. It made me extra sad.

But anyway, for the X-Box version, my brother had it hooked up to his very big screen TV. Wow! It was as close to being like in a holosuite as we can get now. Actual virtual reality games aside I guess.

But.....but...... As beautiful as the picture was and as great as the audio was, it was tedious! Oh so tedious! Sure I missed the ability to make my female character look as sexy as she could be. But what I missed most were the other mods that I had at home on my PC version. Namely, the ones that allowed me to loot someplace in one trip! On the X-Box you could spend the entire alloted game play time to just emptying one place of loot!

Playing the X-Box version was fun it for itself, but the PC version is even more fun for me though. However, I concede that had I seen the X-Box version first at my brother's place, rather than the PC version at my best friend's place, I might feel different about loosing the size scope and settling for a much smaller screen as well as the Dolby Digital Surround Sound!

Now as for which system to use to manage the mods, ugh! I feel your pain, Dragon Wench! Every time I got a new computer system, having killed some trying to play the game, I had to do the re-install process and carefully pick and choose the mods and the managment system, so as to avoid another burn-out.

I've had to avoid some mods I wanted to try. I think I've done what you've described. I eventually got to the point where I had to force myself to be content with just enough to play the game as I do now. But sometimes I see a new temptation and I try it, only to have the game not even load up. So I unclick it, try to load the game again, and if it does, I sigh with relief that at least this time I didn't do permanent damage.

LeoStarDragon1 wrote:
On my computer I didn't even start playing it without mods, because it was the ability to have the "Topless Mod" installed that attracted me to the game in the first place.

Now as for which system to use to manage the mods, ugh! I feel your pain, Dragon Wench! Every time I got a new computer system, having killed some trying to play the game, I had to do the re-install process and carefully pick and choose the mods and the managment system, so as to avoid another burn-out.

I've had to avoid some mods I wanted to try. I think I've done what you've described. I eventually got to the point where I had to force myself to be content with just enough to play the game as I do now. But sometimes I see a new temptation and I try it, only to have the game not even load up. So I unclick it, try to load the game again, and if it does, I sigh with relief that at least this time I didn't do permanent damage.

Now why am I not surprised?

Yep... Happily I have a pretty good computer so running Oblivion at maximum settings with a lot of mods and texture replacers is not a strain on my system. However... Much as with Morrowind it is quite easy to totally mess up your game with the addition of mods, especially if you are using major overhaul mods since they impact everything. So, this time around I'm adding mods very slowly... about three at a time. That way, if Oblivion CTDs on launch or something, it is relatively easy to diagnose the cause.

And yeah.... It can be really difficult to resist the temptation of adding more and more mods. This is where Oblivion is a bit better than Morrowind though, it is far more stable, and it seems to retain its stability even when installing mods midway through the game. Probably a good thing... considering that you need so many more mods for Oblivion than you do for Morrowind.... (IMO anyway, that is a highly subjective opinion )

I Think I Jinxed Myself!

Now why am I not surprised?

:laugh:

Yep... Happily I have a pretty good computer so running Oblivion at maximum settings with a lot of mods and texture replacers is not a strain on my system. However... Much as with Morrowind it is quite easy to totally mess up your game with the addition of mods, especially if you are using major overhaul mods since they impact everything. So, this time around I'm adding mods very slowly... about three at a time. That way, if Oblivion CTDs on launch or something, it is relatively easy to diagnose the cause.

"CTD" = "Crashes To Desktop", right? Me too! When I wrote "burn out" I was referring to trying to play my game with the maximum settings, but the tiny fan in the CPU couldn't keep up with the strain, so that's how I killed them. So yes, a hard lession learned. One mod at a time, test it, etc.

And yeah.... It can be really difficult to resist the temptation of adding more and more mods. This is where Oblivion is a bit better than Morrowind though, it is far more stable, and it seems to retain its stability even when installing mods midway through the game. Probably a good thing... considering that you need so many more mods for Oblivion than you do for Morrowind.... (IMO anyway, that is a highly subjective opinion )

I've never played the earlier games in the series, but I do recall picking up the boxes and wanting to buy them though. I don't remember why I didn't.

I hate to say it, about opinions, but I agree with you! My friend keeps teasing me about them though whenever I have a failure. He plays with minimum mods. He and my brother think it is wierd for players to think that they are better then Bethesda and can improve the game. :laugh:

DesR85 wrote:Very troublesome to install the mods, if you ask me. Had gone through something similar in other games like Resident Evil 4 and STALKER when it comes to mods.

To be honest, I've never had any problems installing mods in Morrowind or Oblivion. It's exactly the same procedure: you open the mod archive, then drop the files as a group in place. So if the archive contains files whose top level is Data, then you drop them in the Oblivion directory, where they'll "overwrite" the existing Oblivion/Data subdirectory. -Because they actually won't overwrite; they'll just add to or replace such entries as are needed to make the mod work.

Oblivion omods are even easier. Assuming you have the Oblivion Mod Manager (OBMM) installed, you just click Create. From the screen that pops up, you select Add Archive, and navigate to the archive containing the omod. You don't even have to open it--you just point OBMM at it. It takes a few seconds to analyze the archive, and then asks if you want the Omod installed. Once you tell it yes, the next step is to Create Omod, then Activate. That's it. You don't have to move a single file.

Tedious? Absolutely. There are far better ways to spend one's time. But the mods add so much to both games, and the procedures are rote.

For me, I think the tedium in setting up Morrowind and Oblivion with mods is more related to those that fit into the "Why didn't Bethsoft do this in the first place?" category...
A good example would be DarkUI'd DarN 1.6 For those who don't know, this mod *vastly* improves the HUD and interface so that the PC gamer no longer feels as though they are playing a poorly designed console port that was essentially an afterthought..
[url="http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=11280"]Here[/url] it is, for those who have never seen the difference this change makes. In addition to the visual improvements, it also includes options for turning off all of the handholding. A definite "must have" in my books.
This is just one such mod, there are also the overhaul mods like Francesco's or OOO for general gameplay tweaks, as well as TNR which improves NPC appearance and actually distinguishes the races from one another.

I mean really... it is tedious to have to install these types of mods, because it just should not be necessary. It makes me feel a bit like I'm correcting a horribly written paper or something... And I dislike editing/marking.. so having to do this sort of thing before enjoying something recreational is annoying.

Mods that add player houses or improve upon the weather system, in my view enhance gameplay, but they aren't entirely critical like those mentioned above. So, for me at least, these are the fun ones to install.

This is the big difference between installing mods for Morrowind and Oblivion, with the former you don't need to add mods that improve the interface, you don't need mods that remove handholding etc. So I guess that is where the real irritation hits.

Oh, and as to my original thread topic.. thanks for the suggestion to ignore the validation thingy, Fable. I have both Fran's and the Unofficial patch installed and so far everything seems fine.

My pleasure.

dragon wench wrote:I mean really... it is tedious to have to install these types of mods, because it just should not be necessary. It makes me feel a bit like I'm correcting a horribly written paper or something... And I dislike editing/marking.. so having to do this sort of thing before enjoying something recreational is annoying.

Product development was clearly driven by marketing and public relations. Why put the effort into doing all the things they knew others would do for them, when Bethsoft could instead invest in a dynamite PR campaign that got all the gamesite fanboys (and a few original members of this forum) wetting themselves over the results?

It only remains to be seen how much farther Bethsoft can take their comedy by incorporating what modders have done for Oblivion into ES5, and claim them all as "great features" they've developed.

Hi, Dragon Wench & Fable!

To: Dragon Wench. You wrote "latter", but didn't you mean "former", if Morrowind is the one with the better interface? Also, hey, I get what you mean I think. Rachel Ray and I don't bake. So a good allegory might be, the difference between gathering the ingrediants to make a cake or pizza and then baking it yourself, versus simply ordering one and eating, with the use of condiments to suite to taste.

To: Fable. I'm about to create a new character. I read what you wrote above. Do I understand you correctly? I should ignore the Read Me instructions for installing and simply allow Oblivion Mod Manager to install for me, right?

LeoStarDragon1 wrote:To: Fable. I'm about to create a new character. I read what you wrote above. Do I understand you correctly? I should ignore the Read Me instructions for installing and simply allow Oblivion Mod Manager to install for me, right?

LSD, my remarks were about installing mods and that subset called Omods. They weren't about creating characters within the game. You don't install characters. You generate them. There are mods that let you skip the generation process, if you wish, but that's another matter.

LeoStarDragon1 wrote:To: Dragon Wench. You wrote "latter", but didn't you mean "former", if Morrowind is the one with the better interface? Also, hey, I get what you mean I think. Rachel Ray and I don't bake. So a good allegory might be, the difference between gathering the ingrediants to make a cake or pizza and then baking it yourself, versus simply order one and eating, with the use of condiments to suite to taste.

*sigh* Thanks, it's edited now.. This is what happens when I'm multitasking

Yeah, something like that. Or maybe to use a slightly different analogy: it's like looking forward to a good meal in a restaurant and then, due to a last minute change of plans, having to prepare dinner at home instead. Now, my SO and I both like cooking most of the time, but that aside...
Or, something like that anyway.
Perhaps closer to the truth, it's like having to fix something that should have been made properly in the first place.

Hello, Fable!

fable wrote:LSD, my remarks were about installing mods and that subset called Omods. They weren't about creating characters within the game. You don't install characters. You generate them. There are mods that let you skip the generation process, if you wish, but that's another matter.

I know. Since I thought I was going to create a new character, it would be a chance to try out new mods that wouldn't cause problems for a current character. Click off an old mod and click on a new mod that caused conflicts before. But this time, after using your suggestions to get it or them installed properly. However, for the time being, shucks. I've gotten used to not using "Wait" as a means to heal my characters, just to pass time away. My girl in a coma just needed to wait for healing purposes. She's mobile now. So I'm still playing her. However, for future reference's sake, I want to keep in mind your suggestions.

As it stands, the new mods I've recently downloaded, are conflicting with mods already in use. But after reading what you wrote, I thought maybe they weren't installed right, since I have the Oblivion Mod Manager. Mostly I don't use it to install mods, but use it for Archive Invalidation and cleaning them. There are a few mods that said to use the OMM, so I did, and they appear in a seperate column from the ones that I didn't use OMM to install with.

What I got from what you wrote was that maybe I could get them moved from the left column to the right column, and discontinue using Archive Invalidation.

Oh, I do have some Save Games that others made, by the way.

What I was hoping for, is that I can try the new mods, using your suggestion, without creating a new character to try them out with, but to use them with my current character without messing her up.

The first thing to add is Wrye Bash. It can and will point out conflicts, allow you to easily reorder mods, and solves major inconsistencies. It's the first tool you need. There's a bit of a starting curve, but beyond that, you should be fine.