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Some questions about SoZ
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:43 pm
by fable
I've read several reviews of the add-on, but they were strong on self-abasement and scented praise, and weak on details. So to my questions:
Just how linear/non-linear is the game? Can you wander anywhere, and are the paths that are open to anywhere lead you in more than just one or two directions?
Are there plenty of non-essential quests?
How well-developed are the NPC party members you can add?
Can you interact with the environment in detailed ways?
In advance, thanks.
Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:19 pm
by Scottg
fable wrote:I've read several reviews of the add-on, but they were strong on self-abasement and scented praise, and weak on details. So to my questions:
Just how linear/non-linear is the game? Can you wander anywhere, and are the paths that are open to anywhere lead you in more than just one or two directions?
Are there plenty of non-essential quests?
How well-developed are the NPC party members you can add?
Can you interact with the environment in detailed ways?
In advance, thanks.
I've not read a review yet, but from me it gets a big THUMBS UP!
First of all - sleeping/resting is much more difficult, so no constant napping to get your spells refilled. (..pricing *seems* abusive for resting, but its actually integrated well with the other aspects of the game.)
The overland map combines elements of BG1 and BG2. BG1 was completely open - but most of it was redundant (..oh look, I exposed a hectare of shrubs!). Here you get a "tiny -you" that pops-up outside a town (for instance). You get to see a portion of the map and nothing is blacked-out, BUT once you walk to a certain area something might "appear" that wasn't exposed on the map (..say you see a little hill with a tree grouping, when you get near it a cemetery icon pops-up alerting you that a cemetery can be explored if you'd like). Like-wise, the "frame" for the map moves when your "tiny-you" moves - so you get to see more map and thereby are exposing yourself to new areas. Note that the "towns" and other areas significant to game-play can be entered, and in this respect its rather like BG2 & NWN's 2 (where you saw a map and you clicked on Amn for instance). Also like BG2 you can have encounters with *semi-random* "spawned" opponents, BUT unlike it you actually see them coming for you. (i.e. a tiny skeleton (with its DC level) starts chasing your tiny-you - if it catches you then you get a dialogue choice grouping (limited or not) that often leads to fighting.)
The game appears pretty non-linear (..though I haven't gotten to far into it yet). It seems to straddle the fence between NWN's and Oblivion. Possibly closer to Oblivion. Most of BG2 was pretty open as well (more so than NWN's 2 OC and MOTB ..IMO), and I'd say it most emulates that game, but is better still (..in that your map and you have some interaction).
You make up to 4 party members, and you can add-on *one* of several choices available in-game. With the feat "Leadership" for your leader (available at level 6), you can add one more character from in the game (..NOT one that you make) - total of 2 in-game plus 4 of your own. I've not used one yet, but it could be that from the time you add them you will get to level them up as you see fit (like NWN's *2*). At a *designated* rest area you can swap out any *3* of your own members as well as any of those you have added in-game. (I believe that your designated "Leader" that you made can NOT be removed.) You'll have to ask another more experienced player about side-lined characters for more detail. As for those you can add from "in-game" being good, detailed personalities - don't know, don't use them. However, your own characters (depending on their skills and the situation), may have additional dialogue choices that provide you with better responses from NPC's.
On the overland map you can NOT interact with the map other than to explore it, enter designated areas, and see potential opponents and other non-hostiles that are also randomly moving about on the map. Clicking on them opens up a dialouge portion first, and if it comes down to fighting, THEN you enter a normal NWN's 2 *semi* random area to somewhat match the aesthetics of the spot you are on the map.
As far as how many quest or how many levels typically - don't know. I believe it was originally supposed to be a level 1-15 game, but it may have turned out to be more. It does however pretty much start you off at level 4 for all your characters (the ones you make) - so its not exactly ToEE. Hopefully someone else can clarify this as well.

Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2008 11:51 pm
by fable
So if I understand you correctly, it appears that it's got far less roleplaying than in RPGs where numerous other characters with their own backgrounds and agendas join you, such as BG2 and PS:T. NWN2 was exceptionally linear; if it comes in between that, and everywhere-to-go-but-nothing-to-do Oblivion, I'm not sure that reassures me. Thanks for the info!
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:46 am
by Scottg
fable wrote:So if I understand you correctly, it appears that it's got far less roleplaying than in RPGs where numerous other characters with their own backgrounds and agendas join you, such as BG2 and PS:T. NWN2 was exceptionally linear; if it comes in between that, and everywhere-to-go-but-nothing-to-do Oblivion, I'm not sure that reassures me. Thanks for the info!
Not entirely.
There are other characters to use, its just that I haven't used them. Remember it was the same in BG2 - you didn't have to use any characters but your own "avatar" if you wanted. Will they be as detailed and believable as in BG2? Almost certainly not, (and sadly I doubt there will every be something as fantastic as PS Torment.)
Also, the user made characters have their own sense of differentiation with skills and dialogue additions (plus the obvious different voices & looks you can apply). With the combination a surprising bit of personality forms, though in a different way than you are used to. (..it does take imagination - rather like pen n' paper.) What they don't have are hidden agendas, random cross-talk interaction (..which was key for BG2), the ability to double-cross, or quests of their own.
I will say though that a few key NPC's seem to have more going on than most of the NPC's in previous NWN campaigns. (..they are also quest givers, so there is interaction there).
If it helps - don't think of it in terms of the module OR the additional feats and races, rather: think of it in terms of re-balancing game play (on several levels), and add-in the addition of the overland map system. Those 2 things alone IMO are more than worth the asking price. In fact I'd say they are finally getting close to a viable gaming platform. (..though I would like the absurd gold-piece changed to silver pieces, but that's perhaps a Wizards of the Coast bitch.)

Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:43 am
by Mz_Trixter
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:35 am
by fable
Scottg wrote:Not entirely.
There are other characters to use, its just that I haven't used them. Remember it was the same in BG2 - you didn't have to use any characters but your own "avatar" if you wanted.
Fortunately, Bioware took the time and effort to create joinable characters with detailed backgrounds, so I had a choice. NWN isn't providing me with that choice. So it still sounds from your remarks as though roleplaying through NPCs will be slight in NWN, at least from my perspective.
Also, the user made characters have their own sense of differentiation with skills and dialogue additions (plus the obvious different voices & looks you can apply).
Yes, and that is nice; I'm not knocking it. But it isn't about roleplaying. It's about adding a potentially interesting level to party management. It means applying a different skill from another character, in a specific situation. I'd point to KotoR, but it's also been around repeatedly since Microplay's sadly forgotten 1992 title, Challenge of the Five Realms. (I can still remember my reaction when I went to pick a lock, and Sir John Fastolfe suddenly chirped up with, "I can do that best!"

)
With the combination a surprising bit of personality forms, though in a different way than you are used to. (..it does take imagination - rather like pen n' paper.)
As both a writer and a MMORPG player (the latter, years ago), I'm used to creating all the details of a character. Thing is, I don't want that out of an RPG for my entire party. It's my preference. I'm not telling you how you should play. But I think a singleplayer, CRPG-based experience is the better for having memorable NPCs, especially in your party. Other aspects are certainly important, but those are essential for my experience.
As for quests, It's seeming like there's a boat load (but could be many more missed) if trying to find all of 'em.
That sounds hopeful. So you actually end up with half a dozen quests at a time?
Thanks for the information. Keep it coming!
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:09 pm
by Scottg
fable wrote: Thing is, I don't want that out of an RPG for my entire party. It's my preference. I'm not telling you how you should play. But I think a singleplayer, CRPG-based experience is the better for having memorable NPCs, especially in your party. Other aspects are certainly important, but those are essential for my experience.
It may be possible, but I think its unlikely you'll have that (..or rather a good version of that).

Of course I hope I'm wrong!
Notable quotes: "Feel's like I've been strained through someone's bowels." (..a rather "fond" phrase I tend to think of some mornings.)

(..and I hear it in that same Jerrod the "Pretender" voice-over.)
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 5:48 pm
by fable
Are the side quests non-essential? And more importantly, can you wander anywhere, or are you pretty much forced down narrow paths, as has been the case in both NWN2 and MotB?
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:13 pm
by Scottg
fable wrote:Are the side quests non-essential? And more importantly, can you wander anywhere, or are you pretty much forced down narrow paths, as has been the case in both NWN2 and MotB?
Non-essential. At least one doesn't even seem to give exp. points (..you relate your adventures to a notorious author).
You can wander around no-interest areas that may have skill-specific "finds" and random hostile spawns. It isn't however completely free-form. Some terrain like hill ranges, forest/swamp ranges, and of course the coastline/sea can't be walked across, but with the exception of the coastline you can walk around a great many obstacles. There are presumably also map boundary limits besides the coastline (..but I haven't explored it much yet).
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:35 pm
by fable
Well, that sounds a bit better. One of my best gaming experiences was Morrowind, after the addition of 200+ mods. I not only had all the well-designed mini-encounters in several hundred caves and the like to consider, but the ability to stumble into small or large quests in all sorts of places, from cities to out-of-the-way boats and campfires. I'll never forget encountering a slightly senile mage standing in the middle of an icy waste, surrounded by four huge elementals, and offering to teach me spells relating to one element if I performed several tasks for him. As soon as he could remember them.
So I treasure the ability to go anywhere, and do anything. Does the difficulty of the main quest level according to my current level, though? I'd hope not. But you never know, these days.
Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:24 pm
by Mz_Trixter
fable wrote:
So I treasure the ability to go anywhere, and do anything. Does the difficulty of the main quest level according to my current level, though? I'd hope not. But you never know, these days.
For the main quest, I'd have to say no - for now, but its also hard telling for sure since you're most likely to get random level spawns 2-5 and higher the further away from towns you go.
I guess the lower level you are, the more the difficulty may vary. And the higher, the less of a difference it'd make because you should be able to handle any lvl 9 and below spawns.
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:24 am
by Scottg
fable wrote:Well, that sounds a bit better. One of my best gaming experiences was Morrowind, after the addition of 200+ mods. I not only had all the well-designed mini-encounters in several hundred caves and the like to consider, but the ability to stumble into small or large quests in all sorts of places, from cities to out-of-the-way boats and campfires. I'll never forget encountering a slightly senile mage standing in the middle of an icy waste, surrounded by four huge elementals, and offering to teach me spells relating to one element if I performed several tasks for him. As soon as he could remember them.
So I treasure the ability to go anywhere, and do anything. Does the difficulty of the main quest level according to my current level, though? I'd hope not. But you never know, these days.
Now don't go thinking its like Morrowind.

It has no where near that sort of free-form behavior or visual depth. The "free-form" part is the overland map - and it is perhaps like a 21st century version of the *early* Ultimas - (except when you enter a town or click to fight you go into a normal NWN2 setting which usually is purposefully limited in scope.)
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:37 am
by fable
Scottg wrote:Now don't go thinking its like Morrowind.

It has no where near that sort of free-form behavior or visual depth. The "free-form" part is the overland map - and it is perhaps like a 21st century version of the *early* Ultimas - (except when you enter a town or click to fight you go into a normal NWN2 setting which usually is purposefully limited in scope.)
I would never think the game is anywhere near as good as Morrowind, don't worry.

But I am seriously considering it. The lack of joinable, roleplaying NPCs is a real drawback, but if a party can pick up many quests and travel in just about any direction it wishes, I'm more inclined to invest my cash in SoZ's purchase. Still considering. You've been very helpful.

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:39 am
by Scottg
Here is some (crappy) video and explanation of the game.. It has a few spoilers about the beginning, BUT you can move the video to right about the half-way mark and see the section on the overland map.
YouTube - NWN2-Storm of Zehir - 20080822
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:44 am
by Scottg
fable wrote: ..The lack of joinable, roleplaying NPCs is a real drawback, but if a party can pick up many quests and travel in just about any direction it wishes..
Who knows? According to the video (early part of it), there are join-able RP *characters*. The questing part of it (free-form) DOES seem to be more like Morrowind though (than NWN's).
I'll also add that while trap strength hasn't increased properly, it is now difficult to disable traps AND you get exp. points (..for lock picking as well).
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 1:47 am
by fable
I was reading elsewhere this evening that the joinable NPCs have virtually no character to offer, at all. I don't know how true this is; it was only provided in a single opinion. So again, this is something I'd like to hear comment about, from those who have actually had those NPCs in their parties, and know what roleplayed, in depth characters are.
Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:14 am
by Scottg
fable wrote:I was reading elsewhere this evening that the joinable NPCs have virtually no character to offer, at all.
That's a bummer, and pretty much in-sync with the first and only join-able character I tried for a short time. I will say though that it was only with my personal-made party, so that BG2 character interaction never had a chance to shine - IF the scripting is actually there.
So if someone adds a comment here (on this topic), please state if you had more than one such character in your party at the same time (..and if so, if there was any chatter between them). Graci!

Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:13 am
by Mz_Trixter
Apart from the druid that agrees to join you in the beginning, I did happen to find a Wizard later on. She does have her own distinct personality, and does chat openly - although only I don't think its directed at anyone in particular - unfortunately I never had both of 'em in my party at one time. When I make my way this time around
(5th build starting soon) I'll see how it turns out.
If it doesn't come out like any of us hope though, I atleast hope this 'new' Ranger/bard build might spice the RP up a lil bit.