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I live in New Mexico. Major Hispanic influence. Coronado, Pizzaro(sp), Onate and many others initiated the 'settling' of the American Southwest. A major controversy here is the Acoma Pueblo Incident. There was an uprising of the Acoma and they dispatched a few Spaniards. Onate, one of the Conquistadors ordered the right foot of all the men in the pueblo cut off. Two years ago the Hispanic population in Albuquerque (incidently named after the Duke of Alburquerque of Spain - the first 'R' dropped decades ago) commissioned a local sculptor to create a statue in honor of Onate. Wrong. Of course as soon as it was finished (before it was erected in a public place) someone cut off it's right foot!!

As far as the Chinese all I'll say is that Mao's legacy resulted in Tiennemen Square.

'Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it.', )actually attributed to George Santyanna(sp)). Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Castro, any of the despots of the past are lessons for free men (and women) everywhere. And 150 years befor any of them Jefferson, Hamilton, Franklin, Madison et alrealized a major truth, an armed citizenry that has the right to vote is the most powerful governmental restraint known to man. 'An armed citizenry is governed. An unarmed one is ruled.' (quote attributed to unknown). What was the first thing all those 'leaders' did? Recended the peoples' right to bear arms.

OOPPPSSS , slipped off my soapbox there for a minute!

[ 05-11-2001: Message edited by: Anatres ]

@Weasel, I'd have to agree with you, if I understand you correctly: the sheer cost in human misery was/is not worth it. Hitler's brief successes resulted in untold suffering from tens of millions of people. Stalin's lengthy "successes" in a similar vein, less publicized, did as much damage. (The Fake Famine Shortage in the Ukraine in 1932/3, for instance, created to destroy what Stalin considered a hotbed of reactionarism, killed six million people.) Mao did as well--and his descendents are still attempting to destroy a sovreign nation, Tibet, in the name of some theories.

In no case, IMO, is imperialism worth it. All the words and ideals are nothing more than a bright banner meant to cover endless corpses stinking in the sun.

[ 05-11-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

@Fable...that's what I meant

Well, let me ask this: has there been *any* idealistic revolution that wasn't achieved at the expense of a great deal of blood, and didn't subsequently become a satire of most of the concepts it originally held sacred?

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Well, let me ask this: has there been *any* idealistic revolution that wasn't achieved at the expense of a great deal of blood, and didn't subsequently become a satire of most of the concepts it originally held sacred?</STRONG>

Good question...I will take a guess and say the French. I rule out the USA....I believe George Washington is spinning in his grave.

I think the French revolution was extremely bloody, as I recall--it's been a while since I read about it. Also, the French then went ahead and installed a dictator (Napoleon) then several annoyingly ineffectual monarchs, so I have to ask wonder to myself what it achieved, in the long run.

@Fable....I guess I didn't win the jack-pot

I was just guessing....I really can't think of any. I thought maybe the Maya's or Inca's, but can't remember enough from school to say for sure. Is there any that hasn't?

Heh, this topic has evolved a lot (for the better, I think).

@Fable and Weasel: The French revolution was bloody indeed, but contrary to many other revolutions in Europe, it was not followed by civil war. Instead, as Fable points out, it was followed by a very imperialistic dictatiorship.

Maya and Inca, AFAIK, had many bloody "civil war" like shifts of power within their cultures, but I don't know if any of those were revolutions. Since respect for life was not prominent in any of these cultures, I would be suprised if a revolution, if there was any, would be unbloody.

The only unbloody revolution I know of was the one in Sweden in the 18th century, when the king was simply removed. However, it lead to no substantial changes either.

But history, especially non Europen history, is really my weakest area of knowledge, so there might be some that I don't know about.

C Elegans-Good morning

I'm not good at history,so I won't comment on anything

Good moring Brink, my favorite spammer

Is there any spamming thread running?

C Elegans-What a change,from favourite bartender to favourite spammer

Anyway,I've started a thread about the art of spamming going down

@Brink, @C Elegans, greetings. What leads you to think the art of spamming is in decline, O Brink?

fable-The number of threads that contain serious discussions are increasing.Spam is related to 1/serious discussions,so when one goes up,the other must come down (of course,you do know that this is a joke right?? )

Joke? Why, no. I have no sense of humor, you see. I traded it for nosehair before my birth. Thanks, though!

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Joke? Why, no. I have no sense of humor, you see. I traded it for nosehair before my birth. Thanks, though! </STRONG>

Is that true??

I swear it by a hair in my left nostril. Besides, I never lie. Ask anyone who doesn't know me.

I have plenty of humor - so I could sell you some if you'd like - it isen't cheap though

[ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: Xandax ]

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Ask anyone who doesn't know me.</STRONG>

Hey fable,does fable lie??

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>Joke? Why, no. I have no sense of humor, you see. I traded it for nosehair before my birth. Thanks, though! </STRONG>

ROFL

Hello Fable, how are you?

C Elegans-How are you??Any plans for the weekend??