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No off topic spam, please

giles337 wrote:I read a book recently (forget the title) in which a grown woman who is a skilled computer programmer, who was sexually abused by her father as a child, attempts to find a way to get over the problem, by creating a virtual reality program in which she can relive the event, and in this instance, fight against her father.

Would this actually help someone who has been abused?

No, hardly. Over the years there have been a number of psychotherapy "schools" which have tried out different acting out-methods to cope with the past, and it has never been demonstrated in controlled studies that this has any positive effect at all on anything else than the therapists' wallet.

One of the older schools based on the idea to "relive" the past, was the Gestalt therapy. Back in the 1960's, Gestalt therapists used an empty chair in the room, and the patient should imagine that the person they had a problematic relationship too, for instance an abusive father, would actually sit on that chair. Part of the therapy would then be to say all the things you wanted to say and never said to your father, to act our your aggressions and other negative feelings. Whereas I am sure some patients may feel better for a while, it is highly doubtful whether this method ever had any true and lasting "healing" effects. Overcoming abuse and other trauma is not about making it feel better, it is a long process that involves changing and developing yourself.

A contemporary adaptation of the same idea comes from John Gray, the guy who wrote the infamous and highly unscientific bestseller "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus" is a person (I'm not even sure the guy is a real licensed psychologist). He has been speaking in American TV about how people should change their views of the past by imagining different outcomes. So a women who has been abused by her father and still feel hate and anger towards him, should change her image of her father hitting her and abusing her sexually, to an image of a loving and caring father playing with her and taking her out for picnic. In other world, if you don't like your real life, invent a new one.

The woman in your book did not alter reality totally, she altered just her own coping strategy. Just like the Gestalt therapy may make you feel better for a while, fighting your abusive father in a viritual world may also make you feel better for a while. Acting out negative emotions usually make people feel better. However, feeling better momentarily is not solving the problem and it is a poor coping strategy that I would not recommend.

Also, in the novel, she wrote an amount of randomness into the prgram, so there could be different outcome, one of many of which was her father overpowering her, and killing her. If the above IS theoretically viable, what kind of affect would experiencing this have?

Sounds like a typical fiction spin off that may make the novel more interesting, but it would probably not change anything of the effect the program had.

I agree that the concept is interesting for a novel, but in real life, other strategies would be more helpful to overcome the negative effects of an abusive childhood.

[QUOTE=C Elegans]
I agree that the concept is interesting for a novel, but in real life, other strategies would be more helpful to overcome the negative effects of an abusive childhood.[/QUOTE]

So what sould be a more viable/effective method? (sorry for spam)

[QUOTE=C Elegans]No, hardly. Over the years there have been a number of psychotherapy "schools" which have tried out different acting out-methods to cope with the past, and it has never been demonstrated in controlled studies that this has any positive effect at all on anything else than the therapists' wallet. [/QUOTE]
I'm not surprised. I guess it's the same as treating arachnophoby with letting spiders crawling up on your arm I never understood why anybody think that would work.

Maybe this is a too simple way of thinking, but I believe that the thing that really helps is REVENGE. Opressing agression and hatred simply doesn't work, I think it's against human nature. I'm not saying that problems should be solved this way, don't get me wrong... But I think there's no acceptance in forgiving. Paying back those who hurt you helps in that you feel strong, therefore you don't feel so defenceless and easy to abuse - imo. Probably not the most noble way of solving problems, though...

In case of spiders, it feels much better to ask someone to put them outside or simply stamp on them than waiting in sweat until they reach your face...

I'm curious what you think about this.

Giles]So what sould be a more viable/effective method? (sorry for spam)[/quote] Best is always psychotherapy with a good wrote:I'm not surprised. I guess it's the same as treating arachnophoby with letting spiders crawling up on your arm I never understood why anybody think that would work.

No, treating phobia with exposure, ie letting spiders crawl up you arm, works perfectly well, it is actually one of the most well-working therapy methods around. The idea of acting out negative emotions is totally different from the idea of habituation and exposure.

The reason why exposure is the best method to treat phobia has nothing to do with living out emotions. It has to do with learning psychology. The arachnophobic avoids spiders, and by avoiding them s/he will reinforce the phobia and stay convinced that spiders are horrible. You must break the avoidance pattern and learn your nervous system that spiders are not dangerous. In order to do this, you must expose yourself gradually to the spider, and get used to it. You don't start with the spider crawling on your arm, you start with just looking at he spider in a closed jar.

Phobias are irrational and exaggregated fears, and the most efficient way to get rid of them is relearning by exposure.

Maybe this is a too simple way of thinking, but I believe that the thing that really helps is REVENGE. Opressing agression and hatred simply doesn't work, I think it's against human nature. I'm not saying that problems should be solved this way, don't get me wrong... But I think there's no acceptance in forgiving. Paying back those who hurt you helps in that you feel strong, therefore you don't feel so defenceless and easy to abuse - imo. Probably not the most noble way of solving problems, though...

Revenge is similar to the novel Giles described - whereas it may feel good, it doesn't actually contribute to substantial psychological change and development in the victim. In fact, it doesn't change anything of what has already happened. Aggression and hatred towards people who have abused you is natural and should not be oppressed, but aggression and hatred can be used in more efficient and healthy ways than revenge.

The idea that revenge makes you feel less defenseless and not so easy to abuse is an illusion. No matter if you revenge a person who raped you - somebody else can rape you tomorrow. No matter if you revenge a person who killed you father - your children can get murdered by some lunatic tomorrow. Living in false illusions about safety is unhealthy and removes us from reality, and acting and living in reality is our only way to make ourselves a meaningful existence.

Forgiving and revenge are uninteresting concepts when it comes to the psychological aspects of truly healing yourself from abuse. Learning to use experiences in a constructive way and not letting yourself take damage of bad experiences, are much more relevant issues.

In case of spiders, it feels much better to ask someone to put them outside or simply stamp on them than waiting in sweat until they reach your face...

So speaks a true phobic

[QUOTE=C Elegans]No, treating phobia with exposure, ie letting spiders crawl up you arm, works perfectly well, it is actually one of the most well-working therapy methods around. [/Quote]
Doesn't seem to work for me...

[Quote=CE]The reason why exposure is the best method to treat phobia has nothing to do with living out emotions. It has to do with learning psychology. The arachnophobic avoids spiders, and by avoiding them s/he will reinforce the phobia and stay convinced that spiders are horrible. You must break the avoidance pattern and learn your nervous system that spiders are not dangerous. In order to do this, you must expose yourself gradually to the spider, and get used to it. You don't start with the spider crawling on your arm, you start with just looking at he spider in a closed jar.[/Quote]
I tried that, I really did, step by step. I was looking at tiny spiders first (you know, those transparent ones) and had no problem with those. Even touched one of them. But when a black one comes and starts to MOVE on the wall I just scream and flee immediately. Looks like I will never be able to proceed to the next step... Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

[Quote=CE]
Phobias are irrational and exaggregated fears, and the most efficient way to get rid of them is relearning by exposure. [/Quote]
I wonder what casues them...? Is there a reason they can be traced back to?

[Quote=CE]The idea that revenge makes you feel less defenseless and not so easy to abuse is an illusion. No matter if you revenge a person who raped you - somebody else can rape you tomorrow. No matter if you revenge a person who killed you father - your children can get murdered by some lunatic tomorrow. Living in false illusions about safety is unhealthy and removes us from reality, and acting and living in reality is our only way to make ourselves a meaningful existence.[/QUOTE]
But you'll fear the one you hate less because you know you can defeat him/her if you have done so.

[Quote=CE]So speaks a true phobic [/QUOTE]
Yeah, I know what I'm talking about

I just heard some shocking news today. A guy I knew from my sports, but haven't seen in a month or something because the season is over, comitted suicide today. I heard it from some people on MSN and they were all shocked and seemed to care very much. That's very normal since they all knew this guy and his friends, but the strange part is that I don't seem to care. I know it's tragic for his friends and familly and I know that I should feel sorry for them but I don't seem to care really. Even though I always had a quick chat whit this guy when I saw him. Maybe I don't care yet because I can't understand it yet. So CE, could you think of any reasons why I'm so indifferent.

EDIT: When I was talking about this with Ik I came to talk about his rasistic ideas, he was quite proud of it. So I always had some mixed feelings about this guy. Maybe it contributes to the fas I don't seem to care.

This thread is the most interesting thread to read through that I have encountered here at GB- this is a great idea CE.

Earlier in this thread Tom asked about mind/body duality. You didn't ever answer- do you have an opinion? I assume most brain researchers would tend to think that mind=brain and leave it at that, but I would just like to hear an educated opinion (I've tried to think about it and talk to people, but no one I've spoken with was actually a brain researcher)

Also, I occasionally get headaches, I think from muscle tension. I always get them behind my right temple and they can last for more than a day. Does the fact that I always get them in the same area mean anything?

Brynn wrote:I tried that, I really did, step by step. I was looking at tiny spiders first (you know, those transparent ones) and had no problem with those. Even touched one of them. But when a black one comes and starts to MOVE on the wall I just scream and flee immediately. Looks like I will never be able to proceed to the next step... Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

It seems like the step between the small transparent ones and the black ones it too large. For exposure to work, you can never, ever flee a situation. You must always stay in the sitution until your anxiety/fear level is significantly lower than when you started. You would probably need more control in the first step with the black spiders, perhaps looking at them moving in a terrarium first. The most common problem with exposure is that people aren't patient enough to wait until their inititial fear is low enough before leavning the situation. The second most common problem is on the cognitive side: the exposure does not have proper effect due to what people think - it may even be uncouncious thoughts. That's why it's much more difficult to do exposure by oneself, rather than with an educated psychotherapist.

If you do exposure by yourself, it's very important that you use the same instruments and the same procedures as a psychotherapist would do. You should monitor your fear-levels many times each session, you should write down everything you feel and think and also use a scale from 1-100 to rate how strongly you feel fear, etc. Best is to go to a CBT therapist, second best is to buy a book for psychology students, which can be used for self help. David Barlow, an English psychologist, has written a couple of books that can be used for self-exposure.

I wonder what casues them...? Is there a reason they can be traced back to?

Some phobias can be traced back to certain events, but it's actually not very common. I once had a patient who got phobia for the metro after having been stuck underground in the middle of a tunnel in a burning, smoke-filled metro-car, that was pretty obvious. I also have a friend who developed spider phobia as a child, after her mother had scared her that spiders were poisonous and could kill her (not at all true in Sweden as you understand - there are no dangerous spiders in the entire Europe).

Animal phobias (spiders, dogs, snakes etc) and natural phobias (darkness, deep water, thunder, heights) are very common and probably have an evolutionary background. It has been demonstrated in scientific studies that it's much easier to provoke phobia for spiders or snakes in non-phobic persons, that to provoke phobia for mushrooms or flowers. It has a survival value to get a slight fear response when confronted with spiders, snakes, heights or deep water, but in some individuals this response seems to be exaggregated, and if the feared objects in then avoided, the fear response gets worse and can develop into a phobia.

But you'll fear the one you hate less because you know you can defeat him/her if you have done so.

I still don't think it is a good idea. Let's say your were assaulted by a person who abused you. Later on, you take your revenge on this person. The situation where you "defeat" your enemy will be totally different from the abuse situation. If you get assaulted again by somebody else, your chances to defeat that other person in an abuse situation is not larger because you defeated your first abuser in a different situation.

But surely it is simply exposure in a slightly more controlled environment? Or does that fact that you know about the control defeat the point?

[QUOTE=arno_v]I just heard some shocking news today. A guy I knew from my sports, but haven't seen in a month or something because the season is over, comitted suicide today. I heard it from some people on MSN and they were all shocked and seemed to care very much. That's very normal since they all knew this guy and his friends, but the strange part is that I don't seem to care. I know it's tragic for his friends and familly and I know that I should feel sorry for them but I don't seem to care really. Even though I always had a quick chat whit this guy when I saw him. Maybe I don't care yet because I can't understand it yet. So CE, could you think of any reasons why I'm so indifferent.

EDIT: When I was talking about this with Ik I came to talk about his rasistic ideas, he was quite proud of it. So I always had some mixed feelings about this guy. Maybe it contributes to the fas I don't seem to care.[/QUOTE]

That could very well be why, your mixed feelings. I personally would applaud a racist dying/killing themself.

Also, I doubt this it the case, but when I get terribly upset, I sort of shut down. I end up in a state where I shrug off everything. Not apathetic really, I still feel but it is almost like I stuff those negative, unpleasant emotions into a closet in my mind and go on about my business avoiding them. They come out eventually, but I just don't deal with them for some time.

arno_v wrote:I just heard some shocking news today. A guy I knew from my sports, but haven't seen in a month or something because the season is over, comitted suicide today. I heard it from some people on MSN and they were all shocked and seemed to care very much. That's very normal since they all knew this guy and his friends, but the strange part is that I don't seem to care. I know it's tragic for his friends and familly and I know that I should feel sorry for them but I don't seem to care really. Even though I always had a quick chat whit this guy when I saw him. Maybe I don't care yet because I can't understand it yet. So CE, could you think of any reasons why I'm so indifferent.

EDIT: When I was talking about this with Ik I came to talk about his rasistic ideas, he was quite proud of it. So I always had some mixed feelings about this guy. Maybe it contributes to the fas I don't seem to care.

In general, many people feel shocked and care deeply when something like this happens even though they are not really personally moved by the loss of the person. Instead, the major part of the shock is triggered by issues like "how this happen in our town/school/among us/to someone we know", "how could this happen to an ordinary guy like him", "he seemed so normal, like nothing was wrong with him" etc. They are shocked because they illusion of death being far away, is temporarily shattered, and because they are surprised. Not many people expect people they know to committ suicide, committ murder, abuse a child or something like that. Still, looking at statistics, we should in fact all expect somebody we know to do all that. But the thought is unpleasant, so we don't like to think about it.

With this in mind, I can see 3 alternative explanations for you not caring:

1. You were in fact not close to this person, and the others were not in fact close to him either, but they react according to the pattern I describe above and you do not.

2. You are affected by your disliking of this persons racist opinions, so you care less because even if you knew and like him in other aspects, his racism created an emotional distance between you.

3. You are in shock and has not yet, as you say "taken in" what has happened, that the guy is really dead. If this is the case, there will probably be a later point when you get a reaction.

My advise would be to do something that remind you of him, see your common friends, do something you used to do with him, and see how you react.

Cuchulain82] This thread is the most interesting thread to read through that I have encountered here at GB- this is a great idea CE. [/quote] Thanks wrote:Earlier in this thread Tom asked about mind/body duality. You didn't ever answer - do you have an opinion? I assume most brain researchers would tend to think that mind=brain and leave it at that, but I would just like to hear an educated opinion (I've tried to think about it and talk to people, but no one I've spoken with was actually a brain researcher)

The mind/body problem is a vast field to start to discuss, so I never answered Tom's question since he ceased posting here at SYM after he finished his Master in Philosophy. If you are interested in that field, I can pick it up again and post something more detailed later. For now, I will fulfill your assumption that brain researchers think mind=brain, because this is my opinion since I have no reason to believe otherwise. I do not believe in any transcendent aspect of the mind, and like most neuroscientist I view "mental" and "physical" events as something that is merely two aspects of the same event. If I decide "I want to watch the football game", that decision is both a "mental" event and a neurochemical event.

When discussion consciousness, as Tom did in his post, it is important to realise that brain researchers divide consciousness into several different aspects based on how we think they are associated with other functions and depending on experiments where you can demonstrate that different aspects of consciousness are separable from each other. Until the 1990's, neuroscientists had little technical possibilities to study consciousness other than in the form of levels of awakeness (ie levels of sleep, wakefulness, levels of coma, etc) but the development in neuroimaging (my own field) made it possible to address rudimentary consciousness questions. It is however a research field in its' infanthood.

Tom]What is at stake is not how we remember things or how we move our limbs - all that seems pretty straight forward. What the problem centres on is raw feeling as some like to call it. Look at an object near to you wrote:
This is more of a philosophical question than a neuroscientific question. Tom and philosophy seems to make a qualitative distinction between qualia and other forms of perception, whereas in neuroscience we do not. There is no reason for us to believe that the relationship between brain events and qualia would have any different properties than the relationship between brain events and other perception. Both qualia and other perception are brain events.

The question "why do we have qualia" does not differ from the question "why do we perceive this spectrum of wavelenghts as sound" or "why do we have 10 fingers" - it has been selected for during evolution. Personally I think the phenomena of qualia is related to the rest of our ability to abstract thinking, our ability to make symbolic represenations in our minds, to act "as if" and to imagine things "as if" they were real. All this has to do with planning, with the ability to conceptualise time and the future. These skills have probably been necessary for mankinds ability to survive at some point/s in the phylogenesis.

Tom asked:

Tom] I was wondering what your take on this problem is - or do you see it as a non-problem? a storm in a metaphysical teacup? [/quote] and my reply is yes wrote: It seems that these impressions are surplus to requirement. You see a car coming towards you, you jump out of the way. The image of the situation hits the retina, lots and lots of complex of processes take place in the brain - neurones fire all over the place and signals are sent to the muscles to move the body out of the way. Why do we also have all those impressions? Why do people not just go around about their business as normal but with out consciousness?

It may be viewed as surplus compared to the fact that a snail survives well, too. Somebody else on this board referred to mans intellectual capacity as "surplus" for survival, too. What both Tom and the other member fail to address when they view those features as "surplus" is that in biology, nothing is static. Environmental changes demand adaptation from species, and even if it seems like we have more skills than we need to survive in today's society, we probably had just enough skills to hang around during the dry spells before we first left Africa, or during the Ice Ages. When you assess a species, you must always look at in not only in its current context, but from an evolutionary perspective.

Also, I occasionally get headaches, I think from muscle tension. I always get them behind my right temple and they can last for more than a day. Does the fact that I always get them in the same area mean anything?

Yes, it means that either it is not muscle tension headache but some form of migrain, or if it is muscle tension triggered, you tend to squeeze the same muscle/nerve end all the time. In case of the latter, it means you are at higher risk to develop chronic pain from that area since you constantly irritate the same muscle and nerves, so daily stretching and perhaps a visit to a physiotherapist may be a good idea.

I couldn't read this whole long thread, so I apologize if this has been covered. I saw some posts about phobias and I have to admit I'm trying to get over one myself. My phobia is needles. Not just the pointy aspect but also the aspect of injections, drawing blood, etc. As I'm typing this, I keep rubbing my fingers together as to make sure they haven't been pricked. I'm feeling nauseated and lightheaded. I can feel the blood coursing through my body.
It's terrible.

I have to get over this because I need to have some blood tests done. They are important tests. My Psoriasis is causing me to get arthritis at age 23 and I want to be able to take care of my daughter when I'm a little older. I may be able to get on some medication that will stop the Psorisis and the psoriatic arthritis, but I have to undergo testing first.

I've never had blood drawn except the little finger pricks they use for hemoglobin tests. I actually get fillings done in my teeth without anesthetics. I just deal with the pain.

I really need to get over this so I can get the medication that I need and I'll be having another type of test done in 7 months or so that is even more important.

Help me C Elegans, you're my only hope.

Strange Moods

O.k,Just yesterday I had a sudden feeling to just go home and do nothing nut clean for the rest of the day. I have no idea how it popped up though. I have have these random Moods just pop into my head. So I go home and take a shower for literaly an Hour and a half, just constantly conditioning and shampooing my hair. I then have another felling to just work out; As soon as I get out of the shower. After that I want to brush my teeth for about 15 minutes (3 time the normal time I take to brush them.) and use Different mouth washes. I have no idea why.

So Tired

Thanks for your reply about mind/body CE- I don't have a reply other than saying that I appreciate such a thorough response

I do have another question, and hopefully the answer doesn't need to be as long as your previous answer. I would like to know if there are different types of tired?

I ask because I can personally think of a few different types, but I don't know how they differ, if at all, outside of my own perception. When I exercise or exert myself, I feel physically tired. Other times however- after a long day, a difficult experience, or even just staying awake for too long- I feel mentally tired.

When I'm physically tired, sometimes my mind is still active by my limbs and body feel heavy, sluggish, and like they need to sleep. When I'm mentally tired, I can feel energetic, but my eyes just want to slam shut and I feel like it takes all the effort in the world just to move a little bit. Sometimes I feel mentally tired in response to taxing situations- problems with girlfriends especially.

Is there a difference between the two different type of tired I described, or is it just the way I experience life?

(PS- I've noticed similar situations when I'm hungry as well- sometimes I feel like I need the energy, and other times I just want to eat)

@JopperM: You have classical Blood-injection phobia. In medical language, it is called Specific phobia, blood-injection type and it is very common. About 3.5% of the population have it, some have only blood phobia but the majority have blood and injection phobia. More often than other phobias, Blood-injection phobia is inherited.

The typical reaction involves feelings of not only fear and anxiety but nausea, dizziness, lightheadedness and fainting. The reason for this reaction is that people with Blood-injection phobia often have a strong parasympatic response. Sympaticus and parasympaticus are parts of the autonomous nervous system, and these functions are very difficult to learn to control by will. Examples of functions that are controlled by the autonomous nervous systems are breathing, heart rate and blood pressure. When you are exposed to the feared stimuli, in your case perhaps a syringe, the response from your parasympatic nervous system will make your blood pressure and heart rate decrease. That's why you feel week and lightheaded. Actually, almost everybody has a drop in blood pressure and heart rate when they see blood - this makes sense evolutionary too, since if you are injured and bleed, you certainly don't want blood to pump out of your body at a fast rate. Persons with Blood-injection phobia (just as I described above about spider phobia) just have an exaggregated response.

You certainly describe that you have very important reasons for curing this phobia. There is really only one effective treatment for phobia, and that is Cogntive Behaviour Therapy, CBT. My former professor who was himself a CBT-therapist had a success rate of 96-97% for treating people with Blood-injection phobia.

If you need to have blood samples taken in 7 months, you should start now to look for a CBT-therapist. I know there are good ones in Florida. Just look for one who is a licenced psychologist and a licenced CBT-psychotherapist.

What does the CBT therapy involve?

Thanks CE! I knew I couldn't just be a wimp like people insist!

@Brynn, good point! sounds gruesome in my case.

@JopperM: Certainly you are not a just a whimp - or rather, maybe you are, but not because you have blood-injection phobia!

@Brynn and JopperM: Naturally, many people with phobias are initially put off as soon as they learn CBT involves exposure to the feared stimuli. Obviously, if you have an intense sense of fear and anxiety for spiders or injections, the last thing on earth you would want, is some cruel mindbending shrink who forces you to face these things. However, gradual exposure, or desensitation as it is sometimes called (they are synonymous) means that you, at a pace you decide together with the therapist, slowly and step-by-step let your nervous system get used to and habituate to the stimuli. Habituation is a neurophysiological phenomenon - the fear response will decrease over time, if you do the exposure the right way. The trick is to do it the right way, which includes analysis of thinking patterns, learning of new coping strategies and working in small steps. To take a real life example of CBT treatment for blood-injection phobia, on of my colleages who is also a psychiatrist, recently had a client who had a severe blood-injection phobia. The first 3 sessions were devouted to analysis of the client's thinking patterns, physiological response patterns and formulation of goals and how their work should progress. Nothing is ever done in secret from the therapists' side, everything is worked out in advance and nothing happens that the client has not already agreed on. So no surprise elements, only planned sessions. The first session when the exposure started, the client looked at different types of syringes, and the second session, the client touched them, held them in his hand, examined them etc. Only after several session, the client felt ready to start to scratch himself a little with the thinnest needle - this he did himself, it was not done by the therapist. In the end, after one session a week for about 4 months, the client could give blood via a venous cannula without feeling anything more than a little normal nervousness!

For spiders, you can start with letting the client look at photos of spiders, then perhaps a real spider in a jar or in a terrarium. The client always decide him/herself where to start, and how big steps shoulds be taken. You never progress to a more difficult stage until you master the present stage. CBT may sound like a horror movie if you have a phobia, but the fact that you yourself have total control all the time, plus you learn new skills to cope with the situation, makes it much easier and much less unpleasant than you would believe. The difficult step is to start seeing a CBT-therapist - as soon as you've been there the first time, the rest is much easier than people believe.

I think I could handle that. Just by making myself think about it sometimes I have been able to work up the nerve to get shots I needed. I even thought about getting a piercing once, but called it off.. I hope I can find a proper therapist. I'm sure my insurance will cover most of it.

@JopperM: That's good to hear, I am sure you will be able to handle it once you start, especially since you have a really good and important motivation. If you have problems finding a good therapist, don't hesitate to PM me and I'll try to assist.

[QUOTE=Darth Zenemij]I have have these random Moods just pop into my head. So I go home and take a shower for literaly an Hour and a half, just constantly conditioning and shampooing my hair. I then have another felling to just work out; As soon as I get out of the shower. After that I want to brush my teeth for about 15 minutes (3 time the normal time I take to brush them.) and use Different mouth washes. I have no idea why.[/QUOTE]

Getting lots of sudden and different impulses to do certain things is totally normal. In psychological experiments when people report all the impulses and thoughts they have in a day, the weirdest of things pop up, and this means nothing special at all. What differs, is not so much the impulses people get, as the level inhibition, or resistance a person has towards the impulses.

If I get the impulse that I should take a shower although I don't really need to shower, I may do it just because it feels nice if I have the time. Nothing strange with that. If you take a shower for 1.5 hour it's fine, as long as you are happy with that and it doesn't happen very often, so often so you miss out on other things because you get stuck showering. Same thing with brushing your teeth for 15 minutes - nothing wrong with that if you felt like it at the time, but if you do it 3 times a day every day you should start considering if it's worth wasting so much time brushing your teeth.

As long as your impulses are random and don't involve anything harmful for you or other people, it doesn't matter. However, if you feel the same urges often, let's say that you feel the need for showering 1.5 hours several times a week, then you may be in the beginning of developing obsessive-compulsive behaviours.

[quote="Cuchulain82]
Thanks for your reply about mind/body CE- I don't have a reply other than saying that I appreciate such a thorough response [/quote]

Thorough? I thought I barely scratched the surface of the subject!

[quote]Is there a difference between the two different type of tired I described"]

There are different types of tired, it's not just subjective experience but can also be objectively demonstrated with experiments. Physical exhaustion can occur because your muscles have worked a lot, or because you lack nutrition, water or sleep. Psychological exhaustion can occur when you have spent a lot of energy on high flying emotions, or intellectual work. Of course there is a substantial overlap of the two since soma and psyche are partly the same - sleep deprivation will cause both you muscles and your thinking ability to be dull. However, sitting at a chair all day and learn something new will not exhaust your muscles and you will probably feel less tired if you do some physical exercise afterwards. Exhaustion due to high vigilance level and information processing does not decrease your ability to exercise physically, and vice versa. Most of these fuctions are mediated by different systems.