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Posted: **Mon Dec 17, 2001 11:54 pm**

Tolkien borrowed alot from the norse mythology, for example Gandalf and Odin have alot in common. I have always assumed that he got some inspiration for his elfes from the "Vanes" (Vanerna in swedish, dont know the english word)

The Vanes are a ancient race of gods and godesses. that are very knowledgable in magic and fertility(mostly the females). They are also alot like elfes in their ways of nature.

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:00 am**

Originally posted by fable:
Er...yeah, it does, but I have no idea why. My 'what-attempts-to-pass-for-a-brain-but-fails-miserably' is particularly useless tonight it would seem. ^_^;;

Friar Tuck was one of the major players in the "band of merry men" surround Robin Hood. The Robin Hood legends have been dated to the early part of the 13th century, where they probably began as the exploits of simple thieves. Along time, they gained in popularity, and pulled in a lot of other tales. So a certain lay brother Tuck, who had his own band of rapists and murderers, spawned tales that were eventually pulled into the Robin Hood pantheon. I just find that kinda neat.

Okay, I thought that might be it!

Reminds of how they did the show Hercules: The Legendary Journeys and Xena: Warrior Princess. Incorporating different mythological tales to get one story. For four people who supposedly lived at the same time, they managed to have Iolas and Hercules at the birth of Jesus and then have Xena and Gabriel help David fight Goliath, after they met Abraham when he almost sacrificed his son.

This, and the Final Fantasy Movie, is the origin of one of my mottos: "Bad philosophy makes for great fiction."

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:05 am**

Originally posted by Dottie:
Tolkien borrowed alot from the norse mythology, for example Gandalf and Odin have alot in common. I have always assumed that he got some inspiration for his elfes from the "Vanes" (Vanerna in swedish, dont know the english word)

The Vanes are a ancient race of gods and godesses. that are very knowledgable in magic and fertility(mostly the females). They are also alot like elfes in their ways of nature.

A lot of people think/thought the LotR is an allegory for Christianity, though Tolkien himself said it isn't.

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:14 am**

Christmas is believed (from celtic mythology) to be originally a druid fetival

Solstice celebrations are a lot broader than just a festival connected to druids in the British Isles. They were celebrated by the Ancient Greeks, Egyptians, Babylonians, Scythians, etc.

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:20 am**

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
This, and the Final Fantasy Movie, is the origin of one of my mottos: "Bad philosophy makes for great fiction."

Heh, and that's the truth of it!

Of course, nowadays it's all done very consciously by Hollywood screenwriters. Back then, it was a matter of many series of tales being told by traveling storytellers and bards at different levels of society; and over hundreds of years, the tales coalesced in odd ways, and often came to mean many different things. Latest historical theories are that Arthur was an 8th or 9th century local English chieftain who was among the last to claim authority from Rome, although he had no contact with Rome, and just used it as a tool to assert authority against other petty chieftains. Then, he became a Welsh ruler whose court included some real roustabout types and a Welsh demi-god (Merthyn) that fought terrible battles with monsters. The French gave him a whole coterie of French knights, a French demi-goddess (Morgan le Fey) as an enemy, and fantastic castles--the idea of a castle in the 8th century would have boggled the mind of any ruler.

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 1:37 am**

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fable:
[QB]Druids did not actually die out entirley but went underground. Some apparantly ended up as becoming british gypsies (part of my weird ethnic background) and freemasons.

:blink: I'd be curious about the sources for this. (I'm definitely not saying you didn't find these, @at99. I'm just curious about 'em.) Druidism died out in Britain during the Roman Empire, though isolated Druidic customs survived for many years. British gypsies have a documented trail of when they first arrived there. (They weren't indigenous druids, but simply itinerant gypsies, split off Dravidian tribes who became mobile after the so-called Iryan invasion of India.) Can't say I've ever heard Freemasonry linked to druidism before,
[QUOTE]

'The veil of Isis ,mysteries of the druids by w.winwood reade' is a good source of druid info. What happens to the druids is a controversial topic again (many a person argues this one in britain). I believe (like from veil of Isis)nothing really dies out but goes underground , merges with like minded people like gypsy)or escapes to remote Isles.(many sources of this but its just theories) I think need seperate thread for this. I agree modern day druids seem to be bogus.

There is a theory Freemasonary got started in scotland (kilwenny lodge I think)in middle ages 'well before england' . The gypsy thing is not well documented. Being a half-gypsy myself and full of family tales they are not Indian. My dad even has a book in draft print of the subject of freemasons and gypsies with references. (lot of family infighting on this, enough said)

Freemasons dont really interest me.

England is not very significant in all of this and King Arthur is never associated with England.

All these historical facts we believe are loosley called the truth. Meaning a lot of conclusions we come to are just ours or anothers theories. It is hard to prove or disprove . Especially when it comes to mthology or mystic tribes. Someones Ancient sources is anothers ones lies.
I guess thats where the fun lies but this should never be taken too seriously

Back to the topic, what about undead monsters, norse myths, persian myths,wizards,sorcerer,magicians (was it magi?).

who thought of Dragons,demi-liches (I will get you for this!!)

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 7:46 am**

Posted by at99 -

England is not very significant in all of this and King Arthur is never associated with England.

Check out this link [url="http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html"]The Legends of King Arthur[/url] It discusses how the tales of King Arthur could be attributed to the activities of many kings of the same name who ruled over the smaller kingdoms of Northern England, Wales, Scotland and Brittany

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:25 am**

Winwoode Reade: thanks for identifying that source, @at99. He was a late 19th century Victorian, and to quote a review by Mike Gleason, "As an account of Druidic belief, it is marginal, at best. As an account of early "modern" beliefs regarding Druids, it is an invaluable resource....It relays the beliefs of the times with the assumption that anyone reading it will, of necessity, agree with the facts and conclusions reached." He's well worth the (pardon the pun) read, and is a marvelous example of both the questing nature and recoil of insularity of his time and place. Reade reminds me of another, more scholarly author: Muller, who reprinted and commented acidly upon ancient Vedic texts. It was a time when Britain was awakening to the rest of the world, and felt impelled to say, over and over, that everything it believed in or claimed as its own was superior to everything else. Fascinating stuff.

As for Druidism, I've yet to come across a self-defined history that wasn't written in a fashion where facts were made to fit a pre-conceived agenda--or, in the case of many New Age works, facts being created to fit that agenda. From Caesar's Commentaries, we know that druidic beliefs did not substantially differ from those of other peoples he encountered and conquered; so chances are that they fit into the broad base of rural paganism that existed in Europe at that time. Beyond that first-hand account, I tend to be a bit skeptical. You're absolutely right when you say that we're all grasping at theories in these cases. Documentation on Greek and Egyptian pre-Judeo-Christian religion is much stronger, especially given the Greek habit of chatting incessantly in print about everything, and the Egyptian need to document. They were the world's first bureacrats.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 9:35 am**

@At99, if you can find it, try to get a copy of John Revell Reinhard's "Medieval Pageant." He was an early 20th century Medieval scholar, and his book is a wonderful collection in highly readable English of several hundred of the best tales of the period drawn from Scandanavian, British, and French sources. They run the gamut from lewd, bawdy stories to the supernatural, to slices from tragic epics. The frame is that of many people gathered on a cold night around an inn's fireside, each telling a story--only the tellers are all the bards of the period, or in many cases, the subjects of the stories, themselves. All dead, all risen to enjoy a moment's peace and company.

There are some oddities in there, as well. One Scandanavian tale refers briefly to a minor king, whose name is Gandalf. Yes, it is the origin of that name, which Tolkien took in deference to an author whose work he enjoyed. The name is encountered nowhere else.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 11:25 am**

Back to the topic, what about undead monsters, norse myths, persian myths,wizards,sorcerer,magicians (was it magi?).

Magi was the Persian plural; "magians" (from which we derive out word "magician") was the European plural. They're still around, like I said, though they have been heavily persecuted by the current Irani fundamentalist regime. Most Magi now live in India, where an astonishing number of sects and religions reside. (One of the most amusing series of letters I've ever read came from the head of a Jesuit mission to India that reported back, horrified, to the Vatican, having found Nestorians there. This was in the 17th century, and the Nestorians had fled Europe and presumably disappeared after the 5th century, during which it was persecuted by more orthodox Christian branches.)

Genies (the plural is really genie in Roman script, or djinni, as it used to be spelt; the singular is djinn) were part of MidEastern folklore that were grafted onto Islam in popular imagination. Traditional storytellers claim that that they were spirits of fire and air that rose up against humanity under the leadership of Iblis, and were defeated by Sulieman the Great (what we would recognize biblically as Solomon), who constrained them to punishment in prisons (like lamps) and servitude to the very humanity they despised. They pop up frequently in the 1000 Nights and a Night, one of the great epics of folklore--which is also among the bawdiest (though you wouldn't know from the selections that are typically reproduced).

Rakashas were demons in Hindu folklore, and only differed from the gods in their inordinate pride. (In Indian folklore, even the gods were subject to universal laws, and could be destroyed.) Otherwise, they were identical in powers and estate--and probably represented the Ceylonese, who steadfastly held out against the invasion of North Indian Iryan forces in distant times. They would sometimes assist humans; or even reincarnate in human form, as gods have been wont to do in many cultures.

The archtype of the berserking barbarian was the Norse mercenary, who was sometimes for hire even in Byzantium in the Middle Ages, as Harald's Saga shows. To get that far with your talents obviously meant that you were pretty impressive, as well as probably being outlawed in your native land for any number of reasons (being on the bad side of a local chieftain, wholesale slaughter, etc). It was said that some of these Norseman entered a state in battle when they felt no wounds, but only the exhiliration of carnage, and could fight for hours at a time.

The Irish also claimed a hero who had a berserking frenzy in battle, Cu Chulainn, though typically their bards had to throw in a big physical effect to mirror the change:

"That's when the Riastrad [battle frenzy] seized him. You would have thought that each hair had been hammered into his head, for they stood upright like nails, and there was a spark of fire at the end of each hair. One of his eyes closed no wider than the eye of a needle, and the other opened as wide as the mouth of a mead-cup. His bared his jaw as far as his ears, and opened his mouth so wide you could see right down his throat. The hero-halo shone from the top of his head." Another report adds that his waist turned around so that his buttocks were to the front. Given all this, more of his opponents probably died of heart failure upon the sight than any other cause in battle.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 11:38 am**

Originally posted by fable:
Magi was the Persian plural; "magians" (from which we derive out word "magician") was the European plural.

Uh...IIRC, and I think I mentioned this in a previous post, "Magi" is the latin plural of "Magus" which is latin refering to the "Persian Wise Men; Magicians," or 'Magians.'

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 11:48 am**

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
Uh...IIRC, and I think I mentioned this in a previous post, "Magi" is the latin plural of "Magus" which is latin refering to the "Persian Wise Men; Magicians," or 'Magians.'

True. They were members of a religion who held very high posts in the ancient Persian autocracy: to be a Magian at the time was a little like being a Jew in Renaissance times: you were held to possess secret knowledge, even magic. ("He was a veritable Jew in the way he could make things appear or disappear at will," wrote one playwright.)

Magus is really a later, Latin derivation of the original, where magic was not part of the initial meaning. It's a fascinating example of how society's viewing of a religious sub-culture twisted a word over time. Magian has fewer overtones:

"I became devoted to the Magian religion (i.e. to the religion of Fire Worshippers) so much so that I attained the position of custodian of the fire which we worshipped." -the Life of Sahaabah, from Hamid's Companions of the Prophet.

"Magian and Mithraic worshippers furnished material for such secret organizations..." -William Fanning, the Catholic Encyclopedia

Under Magian in the Oxford English Dictionary, we find: "Of or pertaining to the Magi," with a quote: "Another reference which he, Zoroaster, made in the Magian religion..."

The Canadian Society of Muslims has reported in its study of Islamic Law that "Islam permits and even encourages every group (Jewish, Christian, Magian or other) to establish their own tribunals presided over by their own judges who apply their own laws - without any interference from Muslim authorities."

Abu'l-Hassan in his article, The Existence of Allah, quoted Islamic sacred texts as follows: Abu Hurayrah has reported that the Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and grant him peace) said, "Every child is born upon fitrah, then it is his parents who make him Jewish, or Christian, or Magian (Zoroastrian), just as an animal delivers a perfect baby animal; do you find it mutilated?"

Those aren't my parentheses. They are in the original, and indicate that Zoroastrianism was another term used to refer to Magians, or Magi.

" A great cypress tree is celebrated in the Shah Nameh as having sprung from a branch brought by Zoroaster from Paradise. It is said to have stood at the village of Kishmar, near Turshiz, and to have been planted by Zoroaster in memory of the conversion of King Gushtasp to the Magian religion." -from History of the Shrine of Imam Ali Al-Naqi

"Two Hungarian chronicles preserved a name taken from the ancient pagan religion: that of the god DAMACSEC. This corresponds obviously to DUMUZIG. After the conversion of the Hungarians to Christianity, most of the legends which made up the Magian religion of the forefathers, were discarded. Yet, the Csaba story survived." -from The Great Stag, A Sumerian Divinity and its Affiliation, by Bobula Ida

"The Hungarians had their own writing system, the runic script, and a rich cultural life with their own religion which wasn't some form of primitive shamanism, but the Magian religion in which all the forces of nature, the various elements, and the heavenly bodies were worshipped as manifestations of a single creative force." -Charles Dombi, The Controversy on the Origins and Early History of the Hungarians

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:02 pm**

Originally posted by fable:
Back to the topic, what about undead monsters, norse myths, persian myths,wizards,sorcerer,magicians (was it magi?).

Magi was the Persian plural; "magians" (from which we derive out word "magician") was the European plural. They're still around, like I said, though they have been heavily persecuted by the current Irani fundamentalist regime. Most Magi now live in India, where an astonishing number of sects and religions reside. (One of the most amusing series of letters I've ever read came from the head of a Jesuit mission to India that reported back, horrified, to the Vatican, having found Nestorians there. This was in the 17th century, and the Nestorians had fled Europe and presumably disappeared after the 5th century, during which it was persecuted by more orthodox Christian branches.)

Genies (the plural is really genie, or djinni, as it used to be spelt; the singular is djinn) were part of MidEastern folklore that were grafted onto Islam in popular imagination. Traditional storytellers claim that that they were spirits of fire and air that rose up against humanity under the leadership of Iblis, and were defeated by Sulieman the Great (what we would recognize biblically as Solomon), who constrained them to punishment in prisons (like lamps) and servitude to the very humanity they despised. They pop up frequently in the 1000 Nights and a Night, one of the great epics of folklore--which is also among the bawdiest (though you wouldn't know from the selections that are typically reproduced).

Rakashas were demons in Hindu folklore, and only differed from the gods in their inordinate pride. (In Indian folklore, even the gods were subject to universal laws, and could be destroyed.) Otherwise, they were identical in powers and estate--and probably represented the Ceylonese, who steadfastly held out against the invasion of North Indian Iryan forces in distant times. They would sometimes assist humans; or even reincarnate in human form, as gods have been wont to do in many cultures.

The archtype of the berserking barbarian was the Norse mercenary, who was sometimes for hire even in Byzantium in the Middle Ages, as Harald's Saga shows. To get that far with your talents obviously meant that you were pretty impressive, as well as probably being outlawed in your native land for any number of reasons (being on the bad side of a local chieftain, wholesale slaughter, etc). It was said that some of these Norseman entered a state in battle when they felt no wounds, but only the exhiliration of carnage, and could fight for hours at a time.

The Irish also claimed a hero who had a berserking frenzy in battle, Cu Chulainn, though typically their bards had to throw in a big physical effect to mirror the change:

"That's when the Riastrad [battle frenzy] seized him. You would have thought that each hair had been hammered into his head, for they stood upright like nails, and there was a spark of fire at the end of each hair. One of his eyes closed no wider than the eye of a needle, and the other opened as wide as the mouth of a mead-cup. His bared his jaw as far as his ears, and opened his mouth so wide you could see right down his throat. The hero-halo shone from the top of his head." Another report adds that his waist turned around so that his buttocks were to the front. Given all this, more of his opponents probably died of heart failure upon the sight than any other cause in battle.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

There is some belief that a 'beserker rage' originated from mouldy food stuffs. The bacteria caused an imbalance in hormones or somesuch and nothing would be felt there after. More useless knowledge.....

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:16 pm**

Originally posted by Nippy:
There is some belief that a 'beserker rage' originated from mouldy food stuffs. The bacteria caused an imbalance in hormones or somesuch and nothing would be felt there after. More useless knowledge.....

Yes! And there's a wonderful book out there--somewhere--that theorizes that many of the stranger actions of the Middle Ages (like the Children's Crusade, the slaughter of the Albigensians, etc) arose from the universal prevalence of Rhye's Syndrome-causing bacteria in mouldy bread.

And who cares if it's useless knowledge! It's fascinating! It gives us insight into people, and there's nothing more important or interesting than people.

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 12:27 pm**

I heard that beserker rages were caused by eating Fly Agaric mushrooms which were fed to the troops (I think they are the red one with the white spots). Can't remember the source though.

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 3:51 pm**

Originally posted by Yshania:
Check out this link [url="http://www.britannia.com/history/h12.html"]The Legends of King Arthur[/url] It discusses how the tales of King Arthur could be attributed to the activities of many kings of the same name who ruled over the smaller kingdoms of Northern England, Wales, Scotland and Brittany

King Arthur is a great tale with many people claiming the truth. Best left to another topic. I heard that "king edward I of England was reported in saying he wants to Rule Scotland like King arthur"

What about English mythology , someone should say some stuff on this.

Thanks for book tips.

I think druids should be another topic. The reality of these people is still a mystery and modern attempts to mimick druid methods have only made things worse.(my opinion)

In mythology why would people 'dream' up such tales of monsters and beings and why do they take the form they do?

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: at99 ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:06 pm**

Effreetis and genies are asian mythology. my grandfather told me a story about a jinn that haunted his uncles house or something.

Didn't some of the D&D and fantasy stuff come from Beowulf?
Also in Scandavanian mythology aren't elves tree spirits and dwarves little, very ugly and dirty men that lived underground?

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:09 pm**

@at99 - the link I posted, I thought to be a good one, it dispels the myth somewhat - though no-one was claming it to be true.

I, however, enjoyed the stories of King Arthur - I have just started reading the Pendragon Cycle by Stephen Lawhead. Maybe the story of Lancelot and Guinnevere (whichever Guinnevere you choose) was the original tragic love story before Romeo and Juliet?

It is a fantasy, one man becomes of many mens stories - but it is intriguing all the same.

According to Anne Rice, King Arthur was a Taltos

Let the myths be, they are important - hence the stories are still told

[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Yshania ]

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:18 pm**

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
Also in Scandavanian mythology aren't elves tree spirits and dwarves little, very ugly and dirty men that lived underground?

Yes, Dwarfs are small, dont like daylight and are very good smiths, they are also rather morose.

Posted: **Tue Dec 18, 2001 4:31 pm**

Originally posted by Dottie:
Yes, Dwarfs are small, dont like daylight and are very good smiths, they are also rather morose.

But very ugly, dirty little old men can be found in most cultures, particularly congregating around pretty young college things wearing tight jeans.

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Where did mythology for BG series come from?