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Originally posted by Waverly:
<STRONG>Truth be told, women are the true expression of the human animal. Men are the result of a damaged X-chromosome missing one of its legs </STRONG>

This is what I mean, fable God created man first because like all great artists, He needed to make a rough-draft before a masterpiece

I'm starting to like y'all...heaven help me

Aw, I don't have a clue, you all battle this one out, I just threw the idea out there (somewhat tongue-in-primate-cheek, I admit)...

[ 05-11-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

We rate the female form as a greater work of art because of our sex and its sexual orientation; but many women might be inclined to differ. It's all a matter of subjectivity. Why, my wife even thinks I have a cute butt, and I hardly have one at all. Beauty, such as a cute butt, is in the eye of the beholder.

Fable: I was being serious. Current thinking is that the Y-chromosome that imparts maleness originated as a defective X. Now is the time for female posters to chime in and gloat. I also think that women carry a more graceful form, but as you said this thinking is subjective.

@Waverly: I was being serious. Current thinking is that the Y-chromosome that imparts maleness originated as a defective X.

I'd like to know what the in-depth reasoning is behind this conclusion. It sounds suspciously like a pseudo-scientific updating and reversal of the old medieval medical notion that women had naturally defective bodies requiring sperm in order to "complete" them.

[ 05-11-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

You doubt the veracity of my facts, Feeble? [url="http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/men/10/30/guy.chromosome.ap/"]http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/men/10/30/guy.chromosome.ap/[/url]
This is not where I got my information, I can't remember but I believe it was a journal of some type. This link does, however, give a quick explaination. Jump down to the Evolution.. heading.

@Waveringly, I would never doubt you.

But I did take a look at that material. It's a riot, full of unannotated speculation and catchy, silly phrases. ("As Page puts it, this mutated version became a tyrannical male-determining gene that said, I will no longer respond to those environmental cues. If I am present, the male pathway will be followed." Thank you, Mr. Wizard.)

Perhaps this would be a good place to begin a campaign, then, to stamp out the Y Chromosome. Down with DNA-Level Tyranny! These evil, johnny-come-lately male chromosomes are going to be the first against the wall when the Gene Revolution comes!

Actually, without a second Y to pair with, it has been slowly degenerating for millenia It's in enough trouble as it is. I think we had better distribute and/or save as much of this genetic material as possible while we still have it

[ 05-11-2001: Message edited by: Waverly ]

The stuff about the male chromosome being defective also sounds suspiciously like the mid-late 1900s notion of women as "angels in the home." The idea being that women were the civilising influence in a world beset by male brutality and the Industrial Revolution.
Hardly balanced, and rather limiting for women......

@dragin' wench: I embelished for effect, but follow the link: the Y is indeed derived from, and less robust than, the prehistorical precursor X.

Oh, but Dragon wench, I love conquering, slaying, and rapining everywhere. It satisfies the brutal urges within me that beat like a primeval drum as I aggressively steer a course through the other bearded, Y-chromosome-bearing savages in life.

Precisely this treatment of man as an inferior attempt at woman was skewered by WS Gilbert (he of Gilbert & Sullivan fame) over a hundred years ago in a song in the operetta, Princess Ida. Here's the lyrics; you can all singalong, and, a one, two...!

A Lady fair, of lineage high,
Was loved by an Ape, in the days gone by--
The Maid was radiant as the sun,
The Ape was a most unsightly one--
So it would not do--
His scheme fell through,
For the Maid, when his love took formal shape,
Expressed such terror
At his monstrous error
That he stammered an apology and made his 'scape,
The picture of a disconcerted Ape.

With a view to rise in the social scale,
He shaved his bristles and he docked his tail,
He grew moustachios and he took his tub,
And he paid a guinea to a gentleman's club
But it would not do,
The scheme fell through--
For the Maid was Beauty's fairest queen,
With golden tresses,
Like a real princesses',
While the Ape, despite his razor keen,
Was the apiest Ape that ever was seen!

He bought white ties, and he bought dress suits,
He crammed his feet into bright tight boots,
And to start in life on a brand new plan,
He christened himself Darwinian Man!
But it would not do,
The scheme fell through--
For the Maiden fair, whome the monkey craved,
Wa a radiant Being,
With a brain far-seeing--
While a Man, however well-behaved,
At best is only a monkey shaved!

Hmmmmm, I never thought of shaving the monkey.

Originally posted by loner72:
<STRONG>God created man first because like all great artists, He needed to make a rough-draft before a masterpiece </STRONG>

I ah...hope y'all know I was just joking about this...

I did.

Woohoo, a debate on religion and politics. Time for some flaming.


Well not this time.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>We rate the female form as a greater work of art because of our sex and its sexual orientation; but many women might be inclined to differ. It's all a matter of subjectivity. Why, my wife even thinks I have a cute butt, and I hardly have one at all. Beauty, such as a cute butt, is in the eye of the beholder. </STRONG>

Good post fable. I agree.

I can't say anything about how i response to the npcs, because they are NOT REAL, and i'm not obbessed enough to get all over a computer. Its as sad as people who love Lara Croft. Its sad how people react to a fake thing.
Its just sad
Sad
Sad
Sad
Emotoinal reaction???
Physical???
Either somebody is very sick or i'm not getting this question. I believe in the former.

Dragon Wench engages God in an almighty battle of searing flames

Seriously, Hi Thorin Oakenshield, love your handle (Lord of the Rings is IMHO one of the finest books ever to have been written)

Thorin-Based on Black and White concepts,since you're a 'god',you don't have any effect on those who don't believe in you

Originally posted by dragon wench:
<STRONG>The stuff about the male chromosome being defective also sounds suspiciously like the mid-late 1900s notion of women as "angels in the home." The idea being that women were the civilising influence in a world beset by male brutality and the Industrial Revolution.
Hardly balanced, and rather limiting for women......</STRONG>

No, not neccessariy. The 19th century stuff was not only a question of difference, adaptaion and selection mechanism, it was a also about *value*. When we use the term selection in genetics or evolutionary science, we are not talking about value, even if media presents it or use words that make it sound that way.

@all: I realise this is the kind of stuff that feminists are going to joke about if it holds true, but if the Y chromosome has evolved from the X chromosome by biologic selection mechanism, it's really nothing spectacular with that, apart from that all knowledge is interesting. These data does not have any influence at all of the "quality" or "adaption fitness" of the male. One has to understand how genes work: in short, the Y chrom holds some genes that triggers molcular events that makes the embryo male. (All embryos are female from the beginning).

If the Y chrom evolved from a "defective" (ie less adaptive during the circumstances) variant of X, this is parallell to saying that humans evolved from a "defective" variant of a certain primate, it only says something about the *selection mechanism*, not about the creature itself. Hope I managed to prove my point.

Sorry I'm rambling, I've been up all night

@C Elegans, you're not rambling, at least, no more than I do, and nobody thinks I ramble, right?

WELL??

In any case, you don't have to convince us--I think the lot of folks up here already realized that "defect" is a relative term that has many applications, some of them actually quite positive. (And I'm not referring, here, to Microsoft Windows' famed defective "features.") Defect in itself is a very narrow word that implies a change of quality to the worse, when changes are frequently mixed in results, depending not only on the subject, but on a range of environmental conditions.

The ridicule for the journal that printed this "Y chromosome is inferior" nonsense was deserved, since it took a single, unimpressive fact, and blew it up into most of a witless article that did less than nothing--since it created an erroneous impression. But at the same time, there *was* a school of suffragette thought in 19th century Britain which argued that women deserved the vote only because they could use it to lead poor, depraved Man out of the mire of his vicious life. The impression I've received from some of the period's literature was that men (especially those of the lower economic class) were viewed as intellectually and morally inferior but physically stronger than women--so Gilbert's satire was on the mark.

Rambling, who, me?

[ 05-12-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Oh oh, it looks like we’ve been found out guys. Men are in fact genetic mutants who have conquered the earth for millennia just to fulfill our ravenous locus-like desires. But now with cloning technology and the truth of our origin revealed it looks like the jig is finally up. Just like Tolkien’s elves and the Vorlons of Babylon 5 it’s time for us to move on. We shall travel beyond the celestial veil never to be seen by women again. There we will spend eternity in the land of Testosteros were we will have belching contests, watch football, and consume prodigious amounts of beer. Good nights ladies, it’s been swell.