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fable's Q&A on classical music

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Post by fable »

That's quite a list, @CE. I don't know whom to praise more: you, for compiling it, or your friend, for seriously undertaking this kind of effort. I didn't realize, though, that you were that up on the classics. Perotin? Machaut? De Lassus? There are many dedicated classical listeners who have never heard of these composers.

Anyway, to your list. These are some names I'd recommend adding on for the "early period":

Leonin
Janequin
Binchois
Molinaro
de Rore
Leo
Dowland
Byrd
Farnaby
Gibbons
Rameau (a must)
Couperin (ditto)
Mouret
Lully
Destouches
Praetorius
Caccini
Philidor (who was also a damn fine chess player)
Fouqueray
Wranitzky
Krommer
Benda
Gossec

I've tried to fill out with more important French and English composers in the baroque and pre-baroque, and added a few excellent representatives of the "Bohemian" school that so influenced Haydn. Wranitzky in particular wrote exceptional symphonies (and corresponded regularly with Haydn; he conducted the premiere of Haydn's The Seasons).

I'll stop at this point. Are the later lists filled out? If so, I'll add more listings. :)
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Post by C Elegans »

Thanks Fable, I will certainly try to find as many as I can of the composers on your list. :) Some of them I can't recall I've ever heard :)

I am sort of interested in music as a general subject, much the same as my interest for literature. Although I have my personal favorites, my interest in the subject in itself makes my knowledge reasonably broad although by no means an expert. It is however striking how many natural scientists have a great interest in music, we discussed that on one of the latest conferences I attented. There is a vast overrepresentation of people who are interested in music, and play an instrument themselves. Wonder if this is sociocultural thing, or if it reflects the many similarities between music and the basics in natural sciences, which, without doubt, are there.

I haven't had much time to devout to the classicists yet, so my list still looks like the above. Suggestions are most welcome, also from other members :)
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Post by fable »

I'd still like to keep this thread focused on questions about classical music, though. If people have suggestions to make, maybe they can do them directly via PMs, since that will keep duplications and spam out of the thread. :)

I'll prepare a 19th century list to post here. Meanwhile, one question: are you including opera as part of your classical survey?
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Post by C Elegans »

Heh, sorry for straying away there, I have a tendency to do that :D
Originally posted by fable
I'll prepare a 19th century list to post here. Meanwhile, one question: are you including opera as part of your classical survey?


Yes, I am including opera.
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Post by fable »

Thought it might be time to rev this sucker up once again. Post your questions about classical music, assuming you have any, and I'll do my damndest to answer 'em. :)
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Post by C Elegans »

Still stuck on the Vienna classisism in my compilation of Classical music, Beethoven and Mozart just kills me, I get the creeps as soon as I hear any of the works I used to play at concerts! :rolleyes:

However, a couple of other questions:

1. What do you think of Valery Giergiev, the current artistic leader of the Marisky Theatre? Many, among them myself, view his as the finest conductor of his generation, others don't like his rather particular style at all. Just out of curiousity, what is you opinion?

2. What do you think about Kyang Wha Chung's playing style? Although very well established at at the world scence, people's opinions of her playing style varies quite widely. Whereas I love her interpretation of some works I had grew tired of (such as Tchakovsky's Violin Concerto, which IMO she has made the ultimate interpretation) I know many people find her far too technical and lacking in emotional expression. What is your opinion?
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by C Elegans
Still stuck on the Vienna classisism in my compilation of Classical music, Beethoven and Mozart just kills me, I get the creeps as soon as I hear any of the works I used to play at concerts! :rolleyes:
Consider music by their contemporaries:

The symphonies of Clementi, Kraus and Crotch, various works by Pleyel, Cherubini (great string quartets), Wranitzky, Gossec, Brunetti, Boccherini, Hummel, Myslivecek, the Chevalier d'Saint-George (one of the first black composers, btw), Rosetti, Michael Haydn (Josef's brother), Jirovec, Pichl, Corrette, Boismortier, CPE Bach (brilliant symphonies), Kozeluh, Krommer, and Benda, for starters.

1. What do you think of Valery Giergiev, the current artistic leader of the Marisky Theatre? Many, among them myself, view his as the finest conductor of his generation, others don't like his rather particular style at all. Just out of curiousity, what is you opinion?

I think he can be a very fine conductor when he chooses to, but he sometimes trades focus for speed. My wife and I have tickets to see Gergiev and the Kirov Opera in works by Rimsky-Korsakov and Prokofiev, this July, when it tours at the Metropolitan Opera in NYC. :)

He's also primarily an opera conductor. Among his Russian contemporaries, I'd say Polyansky has the best rep for orchestral music, but he's not earned any acolades. Perhaps the days of great Russian conductors is (at least, temporarily) passed, along with the Soviet state educational system that produced outstanding artists and scientists.

2. What do you think about Kyang Wha Chung's playing style? Although very well established at at the world scence, people's opinions of her playing style varies quite widely. Whereas I love her interpretation of some works I had grew tired of (such as Tchakovsky's Violin Concerto, which IMO she has made the ultimate interpretation) I know many people find her far too technical and lacking in emotional expression. What is your opinion?

She is rather monochromatic, IMO. I especially think something like the Tchaikovsky requires an emotionally extroverted kind of approach. That's why I continue to prefer the performances of David Oistrakh, Nathan Milstein, and Jascha Heifetz in this music. It's music that requires taking chances; any performer that sounds too secure simply isn't doing their job correctly. ;)
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Post by C Elegans »

I have some works by Hummel, Chevalier d'Saint-George and CPE Bach, the rest will have to wait until I see how much money I have left after my holiday ;)

Perhaps the days of great Russian conductors is (at least, temporarily) passed, along with the Soviet state educational system that produced outstanding artists and scientists.

That's what I fear :( Let's hope there can be some revival of that tradition...

I anyway look forward to hear you review of the Metropolitan concert, I am myself going to the Baltic Sea Festival here in Stockholm in the end of August, when Giergiev/Gergiev (transcription seems to differ) and the Kirov performs Lady Mcbeth from Mtensk. It is the first time ever it is played in Sweden. Apart from the Marinsky theatre, Gideon Kramer and Maxim Vengerov is performing...I don't remember what, though. A nice surprise what that Lygeti's Lux Aeterna is going to be performed...it's not something you hear often in Sweden. Living here, one would think that except Scandinavian composers, the Vienna classisists and Bel Canto were all that ever existed :rolleyes:
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by C Elegans
I have some works by Hummel, Chevalier d'Saint-George and CPE Bach, the rest will have to wait until I see how much money I have left after my holiday ;)


Consider Berkshire Record Outlet, here. True, the Massachusetts location means a hefty mailing cost to Sweden, but that's offset by a remarkable savings in CD costs. Typically, the records they offer are full-priced items being sold at $2-7 a piece. It's surplus, so no bad repackaging by some cheap outfit trying to skim a few bucks off bad manufacturing runs. Quality labels, too: Chandos, Hyperion, EMI, Sony/CBS, Andante, Marco Polo, Olympia (very good Russian releases), etc.
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by C Elegans
That's what I fear :( Let's hope there can be some revival of that tradition...


Whatever else can be said against it, the Soviet Union had a superb educational system. In the field of classical music alone, it capitalized upon the pre-Soviet "high" culture which produced an extraordinary wealth of great musicians, many of whom fled to the West before WWI. It was the Soviet's great distinction that it maintained this level of creativity in musical performance throughout much of its existence.

According to various reports I've read over the last few years, that educational system has been replaced by the most basic of poorly funded public school systems, with good teachers either moving into private schools and well-paid jobs, or leaving the country altogether. This also applies to the best of the current artists. Even those who stay in Russia, like Gergiev, Netrebko, and Diadkova, spend most of their career working abroad for foreign companies. It's understandable, but it's also clearly the beginning of a great "brain drain" on what talent remains in Russia. I honestly think that in 20 years, cultural historians will be looking back at the collapse of the Soviet as a dividing line beyond which a century of cultural tradition was lost.

For the time being, though, those Kirov Opera performances are a must for anybody who enjoys opera and great voices. Ironically, the Kirov casts contain enough excellent performers to lead me to speak of a Golden Age of Female Voices in Russia. This mirrors the astonishing collection of superb male voices that the Soviet had in the 1930s through the 1960s.
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Post by Chanak »

@fable & CE: Have either of you heard of the Classical guitarist David Tanenbaum? I heard a sample of his work years ago, and I was taken by his technical brilliance and subtle mastery of tone and harmonics. The sample in question was a transcription of one of Scarlatti's works for the harpsichord, which sounded quite dynamic and lively on the guitar. I am curious if he is still around...and if he is, are there any recordings of his work available?

Btw, interesting thread, @fable. I developed an interest in classical music during my youth, after picking up the trumpet in elementary school band. Since I wasn't inundated in an environment rich in the tones of the orchestra and the works of the great composers, I of course never delved too deeply since I lacked any formal instruction beyond what is taught in the public schools. In retrospect, I would like to see this change. I think music as a whole would benefit from a more solid foundation in the discipline and structure that is the earmark of classical music and performance. Many of the most skilled and brilliant pop musicians, for example, received classical training at some point in their lives (such as the late Randy Rhoads).
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by Chanak
@fable & CE: Have either of you heard of the Classical guitarist David Tanenbaum? I heard a sample of his work years ago, and I was taken by his technical brilliance and subtle mastery of tone and harmonics. The sample in question was a transcription of one of Scarlatti's works for the harpsichord, which sounded quite dynamic and lively on the guitar. I am curious if he is still around...and if he is, are there any recordings of his work available?
I agree: he's an excellent guitarist, though I don't often encounter his performances. Sadly, few guitarists are represented by major record labels. Tanenbaum also focuses a lot of his recording efforts on modern experimental composers, rather than on the more traditionally appreciated Rennaissance and Hispanic music associated with the guitar. He has his own webpage, which you can access here.

I developed an interest in classical music during my youth, after picking up the trumpet in elementary school band. Since I wasn't inundated in an environment rich in the tones of the orchestra and the works of the great composers, I of course never delved too deeply since I lacked any formal instruction beyond what is taught in the public schools. In retrospect, I would like to see this change. I think music as a whole would benefit from a more solid foundation in the discipline and structure that is the earmark of classical music and performance. Many of the most skilled and brilliant pop musicians, for example, received classical training at some point in their lives (such as the late Randy Rhoads).

And Frank Zappa, who (rightly, IMO) looked down on many rock musicians as untrained musical amateurs that got by on pretty-boy features and electronics. Zappa was not merely a thoroughly trained classical musician, but a fine experimental composer and theorist. He realized that music was music, and paid little attention to labels.

As to classical training in schools: ain't gonna happen, but I completely agree with you. :) Public schools for the most part in the US are viewed as a place to dump your kids for a number of years so they can finally get jobs, while you and your spouse live your lives. Teachers are usually paid a pittance and in turn taught poorly. The entire process deadens creativity, rather than stimulates it.

A model of what can be done with a music sub-curriculum in public schools is the Kodaly Method, which I've mentioned before. Evolved by the great Hungarian composer and educator Zoltan Kodaly, it has been used successfully in Hungarian schools since the early 1950s, and in select areas of Europe outside Hungary since the 1960s--after Kodaly-trained children's choirs started winning all the awards at international competitions. In essence, Kodaly believed that children should be taught music in a systemized manner from very early in life, much like a second language. This follows upon some of the studies that CE has discussed in SYM, about the enormous, usually wasted potential for learning in young children.

It's not surprising that Hungary today has a remarkable variety of classical, jazz and folk musicians, all of whom were given a solid grounding in classical techniques thanks to the Kodaly Method. Over the years I've picked up a number of choral albums by groups located in the Hungarian equivalent of small towns. Without exception, they were as well trained and musical as the Cambridge Choir. :D And folk groups like Muzsikas or Taltos and rock/world groups such as Ghymes show a broad knowledge of musical culture that, just like Zappa, breaks down the boundaries between "high" and "low" culture.
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Post by C Elegans »

Originally posted by fable
For the time being, though, those Kirov Opera performances are a must for anybody who enjoys opera and great voices. Ironically, the Kirov casts contain enough excellent performers to lead me to speak of a Golden Age of Female Voices in Russia. This mirrors the astonishing collection of superb male voices that the Soviet had in the 1930s through the 1960s.


I agree, a couple of the female singers have been here at guest performances, but this is the first time the whole Opera comes here. :) Still 2 months to go, though.

@Chanak: Unfortunately I know virtually nothing about classical guitarr, so I do not know Tanenbaum or any other instrumentalists by name...guitarr is an instrument that has been sadly neglected by me for some reason, I must look into it more when I have the opportunity.

Regarding the effect classical training has on your development as a musician, I completely agree with you both. It is also interesting to note how many of the pop music artists who have made creative, novel music have had either a solid classical or a solid jazz training. Zappa is one example, Bjork is another. Except for the developement of professional musicians, I also think musical learning is of importance for anybody, since it's a language you need to learn like any other language, and it opens the door not only to a dimension of experiences of art, but also to something in yourself. It is no wonder many people find contemporary classical or jazz music "difficult" compared to boy-bands or plain rock/pop, since it's a language they have not learned. When I was a child, the Swedish school system provided musical education, so by age 8-9 everybody was supposed to choose an instrument and start playing. Lessons were after school, ususally once or twice a week. This system was called the Public Musical School. I started playing much earlier (age 4), and like many other kids who showed musical interest and talent, I was granted to start the Muscial School earlier, without any fees. Without this system, I could never have played the piano, my parents could not have afforded to send me to a private teacher. Sadly, this like many other things has been removed from the Swedish school system since, and now it's back to the old bad times when only rich families can afford to let their kids have a musical education.
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Post by C Elegans »

Another more : I am going to bring the hubby + same friend who I am trying to make this compilation for, to one of the concerts during the Baltic Sea festival (the same classical music festival during which the Kirov is performing).

They both seem to appreciate the beauty of the Romantic composers, especially the Eastern Europe ones. The hubby likes Sibelius, my friend liked Dvorak and Tchaikovsky so far. Now, there are two concertos that might be suitable:


1. Swedish Radio Symphony orch.
Esa-Pekka Salonen, cond.
Gidon Kremer, violin

Mårtensson: (new piece, very short)
Sibelius: Violin concerto
Stravinsky: Rite of Spring

2. North Germany Radio Symph. orch. (Hamburg)
Christoph Eschenbach, cond.
Maxim Vengerov, violin

Dalbavie: Ciaccona (very short also)
Saint-Saëns: Violin concerto No 3
Tjajkovskij: Symph. 4

I will probably attend both since I really like both Kremer and Vengerov, and both programs mainly consist of pieces I have heard a 1000 times before. So which one do you think I should bring the two novices to? (I can't affort do take them to both)
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Post by fable »

You're safer with the Saint-Saens/Tchaikovsky. It sounds like both hubby and friend like the Romantics, while the Stravinsky is both relatively long and unremittingly harsh to those who prefer, say, Sibelius and Dvorak. I'd suggest approaching Stravinsky by way of Petrushka and The Firebird. Try the Rite of Spring by radio or CD, first.

Be sure your husband has an understanding of what each section of the Rite of Spring means before playing it, too. The Rite is one of those ballets which are intimately tied to a storyline. Provided a person has the story in detail, they can visualize all the exotic scenic elements that Stravinsky calls for.
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Post by fable »

I have been asked, via PM, a question about classical music which--understandably--was not placed in this thread. It is as follows: are there any composers who could be lumped together as Moe, Larry and Curly?

I will keep the question anonymous, as requested. :rolleyes: :D ;)

Unfortunately, I have to answer in the negative. There is an avantgarde composer, Eric Moe, and there are at least a few performers whose first name is Lawrence or Larry; so that could work. But there's simply no performer or composer whose name is Curly, or even Curley. I am sorry to disappoint about this, but unless somebody cares to unearth a document pointing out that Johan Sebastian Bach was known as "Curly" to his friends on account of his unusually vibrant white wig, we'll have to forego the identification with the Three Stooges. :)
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Post by fable »

It's okay to put questions up here. ;) I'm writing that, because I just received another inquiry about classical music via PMs. Really, I don't think putting a question in a thread like this implies any special ignorance. Gods know, it's an area of specific interest and research. It's not like asking the number of current oceans in the world, or the number of planets in our solar system. :)

So to the question: how far back does classical music go?

It depends on how you define "classical music." If we decide we mean symphonies and quartets, then roughly 1725 is a good starting point: both those forms were then in evolution, the quartet from the French/Italian sonata a quatre, the symphony from the triparite overtures to Italian operas. But if we allow madrigals, masses, and other secular/sacred vocal music, we drop back at least to 1400 AC.

The troubadours and trouveres are typically classified as "classical." That takes us back to the 13th century, after the French and Teutonic musicianly aristocrats experienced a cultural revolution after contact, during the Crusades, with MidEastern Islamic civilization.

And if we then include very early Roman Catholic Church music, we could probably push things back to 1100 or so. There are references in a couple of texts, as well, to polyphonic music existing as early as 900, though the music is largely lost. (Music was preserved in a much more basic form, minus such aspects as rhythm, for hundreds of years.) So most musicologists declare that classical music starts around the beginning of the 13th century, with the troubadours/troveres, and with the Notre Dame school of sacred composition. :)
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Post by rnrules »

Wow, what a truckload of information. I do like playing ragtime and jazz on the piano but a lot of the classical stuff is great too. Anyway a few months ago there was a russian pianist who came and played for us (very rarely anybod worth their salt shows there face here). However he was quite different it, was definitely the best live preformance I have witnessed. He played the second Rachmaninof concerto and though our orchestra did a valiant job at playing with him it was obvious we were small-time and he was not. So that brings me to my questions:

Who are reputed as accomplished russian pianists?

and

In your opinion what was Rachmaninof's greatest piece?
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Post by fable »

Originally posted by rnrules
Who are reputed as accomplished russian pianists?

and

In your opinion what was Rachmaninof's greatest piece?


There are such a truckload of great Russo-Soviet pianists throughout the 20th century that it would impossible to name 'em all. Certainly Horowitz, Hofmann and Rachmaninoff are the best known names and perhaps the greatest, but I could list more than two dozen easily. The quantity and impact of these artists on the West has yet to be truly measured.

Among the living, Alexander Davidenko has been getting rave reviews of late, while Vladimir Ashkenazy's star has faded over the last two decades. Perhaps the best known Russian pianist of the last four decades, Sviatoslav Richter, died a few years ago. His recordings are plentiful, and I suggest buying those that predate the 1980s. If you don't mind the ancient sound, then by all means, sample Rachmaninoff's own recordings, especially of his own works; and check out his Schumann Carnaval. It's rightfully considered among the glories of the phonograph.

As for a single Rachmaninoff work being his "greatest," I don't think there really is one. How does anybody define a term like great? There's a lot of subjectivity in there, not to mention the works one might enjoy in a single given mood might appeal less in another. And is a 5 minute piece any less great for achieving its goals swiftly, unlike a 30 minute piece?

That said, my Rachmaninoff favorites include his Paganini Rhapsody, Symphonic Dances, Piano Concerto #2, Francesca da Rimini (opera), and Second Suite for Two Pianos.
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Post by C Elegans »

Tonight I listened to a wonderful concerto which was part of the Baltic Sea festival :) Kremer and his string orchestra Kremerata Baltica, together with conductor Esa-Pekka Salonen performed Part's Fratres, Shostakovitch's Violin Sonata in G major, Bartok's Diversemento for Strings and finally Denisov's Happy End. An interesting an unusual reportoire, and very well played. Gidon Kremer needs no introduction, Kremerata Baltica is the string orchestra he started 5-6 years ago to give young Baltic musicians a chance to perform over the world. They have been very well received, and spart from very talented musicians, they also have an interesting, quite modern reportoire that includes contemporary composers like Part and Schnittke, but also my favorite tango nuevo composer Piazolla :) A very special ensamble :)
Originally posted by fable
That said, my Rachmaninoff favorites include his Paganini Rhapsody, Symphonic Dances, Piano Concerto #2, Francesca da Rimini (opera), and Second Suite for Two Pianos.


I love Francesca da Rimini, it was however composed by Tchaikovsky ;)
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