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Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 9:38 am
by dragon wench
Originally posted by fable
I don't know what, if anything, should be done about porn, except . The most obvious way to stop its consumption is for parents to educate kids early in life to understand the frank, open, outrageously wonderful joys (and concerns) of sex; and to skeptically challenge the message packagers who are out to create perfect little consumers of every person on the planet.
I hope I'm not getting too much off topic here..... but this part of Fable's post strikes a chord. I have always held that we could go a long way towards combatting the sleeze of the porn industry by teaching childen that the naked human body is natural and beautiful, and that sexuality should be celebrated rather than denigrated (IMO the porn industry and the moral crusaders are equally guilty in this regard).
However, putting this into practice, I have found, is very difficult. My partner and I have a seven-year-old son. He routinely sees us naked, and we frequently take him to nude beaches or hotsprings. Until he entered Grade 1 this year, he was of the opinion that nudity was normal. Now, after having been influenced by his peers he feels uncomfortable in such places. Thus, as much as possible we are trying to counter what he is learning at school.
As with many things, this seems to be an uphill battle because unfortunately mainstream thought does not usually encourage a more natural approach to these issues. And of course, those with more enlightened thoughts are not generally behind the reigns of power......Where do we begin in defeating a set of values that have become so fundamentally embedded in our society ( I am largely talking about North America in this regard, which remains very much under the yoke of puritanism....)? Unhappily, Humans seem unable to step out of a hive mentality.......
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 10:01 am
by Dottie
Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Whilst I have to agree that some porn (ie. the 'deviant' stuff that has already been mentioned) should be kept away from impressionable minds, I think (generalization warning) the American oversensitivity and heavyhanded tendancy to censor most things to do with nudity and sex is actually far more damaging than attempting to naturalize sex. Australia does the same thing as America, and as a result sex is somehow made to seem 'wrong' during adolescence, the time when most people are attempting to come to terms with their own feelings and sexuality, rather than showing sex for the natural part of life that it is. A lot of this is because the Australian government is heavily influenced by the right-wing religious groups, but I can't help but feel that when teenagers are made to feel guilty over having perfectly normal desires that something is not working.
*sigh*Maybe I should go live in Sweden 
.
As Fable pointed out, Cencorship isnt the issue here. But rather the effects of the stereotypes in the mainstream porn and that is exactly the same thing in america or sweden I think.
@DW: I've heard that complain from about every person who tries actively to give a different set of values to thier children. You can only hope that your child will influence the other ones just a little bit as well.
And since most of our values have changed throughout history it must be possible in someway, So keep it up.
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 12:37 pm
by Aegis
this is a placemarker, so I can come back to it later.
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:19 pm
by Rattman
WHO HAS PORN PIC'S OF THERE MOTHERS??
IF NOT DO YOU WANT SOME I AM SELLING
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:34 pm
by T'lainya
@ Everyone, this is a serious discussion, please keep the spam to a minimum.
thanks T'lainya
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 2:44 pm
by fable
@Rattman, I'm sure you didn't mean to make fun of all the concerns women (and men) have expressed in this thread about the degradation of women through porn, especially since at least two I know came from abusive backgrounds; so probably an apology from you will be all that's needed to prevent matters from getting any worse.
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 3:25 pm
by C Elegans
Re: Now that we can spam this thread...
Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
@CE-the more I learn about the Swedish mind-set the more I like it, it all seems to make so much more sense than the traditional western mentality. *hug*
*hug* You are most welcome to visit
There are many things I dislike with Sweden, such as the immigration policy (I'm for free immigration) and the anti-intellectualism, but something I do like is that sex and the nude body has been viewed as natural and nothing bad since the 1960's. The type of taboo around sex and nakedness you see in the US and obviously also in Oz, does not have an equivalent here.
posted by Beldin
What I miss so far is the impact of porn on the MALE consumer - especially the teenage male.
Most men have at some point (or the other) in their life serious doubt on - ahem - the size of their "equipment"....and/or their "efficiency" (i.e. - endurance and the like..) .
If you miss that in this debate, you can't have read my post about how porn movies adds to and provide ingredients for peer pressure. I addressed the problem of porn movies propagating the image of extremely large penis and certain stereotype behavious.
posted by Nael
but today, the women do it because they like sex and want to make money doing it. so, no...porn, in and of itself is not degrading to women.
This is the image the porn industry want to keep up, yes. In some individual cases, it might be correct. But as Fable, Sleep and myself have mentioned, the reality behind this image is different. Several research studies as well as interviews and documentaries where porn "stars/starlets" have been allowed to discuss their situations anonymously, reveal that "liking sex" is not at all a driving force, on the contrary they report much problems with sex and relationships in private life.
It is very easy to see on a woman's body whether she is aroused for real or not. So far I have never seen this is a porn movie.
Posted: Wed Jun 05, 2002 11:09 pm
by Ode to a Grasshopper
Originally posted by HighLordDave
You were under the influence of the fungal spores, right?
Now I've started a Country and Western band too...
@CE-I'd like that.
We have the anti-intellectualism and mandatory detention for asylum seekers here as well as the ridculous fear of the human form, so Sweden's still one up on Australia by far.
Needless to say as soon as I find a suitable country I'm moving out of Australia.
Good on you DW, until we started hosting exchange students my mother used to do the same thing and I just can't see what all the fuss is about. But, as you pointed out, the people who feel this way are rarely the ones in power, and (AFAIK) rarely want to be in power either.
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2002 1:35 am
by Beldin
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2002 1:54 am
by Ode to a Grasshopper
I hear France is lovely this time of year...
Of course, Amsterdam would be lovely
any time of year...
@Dottie in spite of what Fable said I think that when examining this issue one is must also examine the issue of censorship, for the reasons already mentioned by myself, DW, CE and HLD. The issues raised about the porn industry are all effected by the level of censorship present, and by the prevalent attitudes of society towards sex. As such we must examine all these other factors as well as the actual porn industry itself.
Off-topic for a moment, I'd like to thank the people here, and especially Buck, for providing a forum where an issue like this can be discussed in a mature, sensible fashion without the thread either being closed down or degenerating into immaturity (with the exception of Ratty
). I think it's great that the people here at GB have formed a community that is open, respectful and friendly enough to be able to do this, and I doubt that I could have this conversation with many adults, and certainly not with as many people from as many different backgrounds, IRL with the same level of thoughtfulness and openness that I have seen here.
So well done @everyone.
*hug* to all those who want it (and Georgi, of course
)
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2002 4:19 pm
by Rattman
i was expecting a far more witful responce to my answer so i could make some jokes but as i may have upset people i will say this
SORRY
and while i am here i will raise a serious point
why can you have sex at 16 and only watch it at 18
that means it you film you and your other haveing sex then you can be done for kiddy porn
or am i wrong
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2002 9:41 pm
by fable
@Rattman, if you'd bother reading the rest of this thread, you would have seen that it contains no spam. There are plenty of other topics that are made for that kind of thing, and you're welcome to provoke wit in them, all you want.
@Ode, there are plenty of nations with much looser censorship restrictions, but their pornography trade is identical to what can be seen over here in the US. Pornography is a big, multinational business. It exists aside from censorship laws, and probably always will, because it has the political clout to do so.
Posted: Thu Jun 06, 2002 10:41 pm
by Dottie
Originally posted by Rattman
and while i am here i will raise a serious point
why can you have sex at 16 and only watch it at 18
that means it you film you and your other haveing sex then you can be done for kiddy porn
or am i wrong
Obviously this rules are there to prevent the use of very young people in porn industry. If you do film yourself I dont think anyone would care much. If you make profit on a porn movie casting someone under 18 I think everyone can agree that is quite atrocious.
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 1:14 am
by Maharlika
Going back to Fas' point...
... is there a justification for the continued presence of porn? Sadly IMHO there is no justification for the presentation of porn using models who do work against their will (or unable to decide for themselves).
Take note that I used "using against their will" in comparison to HLD's example of doing something you don't like but nevertheless still do it anyway out of pragmatic reasons.
When porn material is produced wherein at least one contributing member of the project is forced to "chip in" by force and against their will, then definitely it is more than just degrading... it's exploitaion.
BTW, like what fable said and DW seconded, it is important for the parents to talk this stuff to their kids.
I remember my Mom asking me when I was 12 years old: "Son, so tell me, what do you know regarding sex?"
I was surprised then I gave a maliciously smile, coupled with an embarrassed "errr...uhmmm..." when my mother looked me straight in the eyes and said "What's so funny? There's nothing funny about sex."
It was like cold water splashed to my face.
From then on I could talk to my parents anything about sex without having to feel queasy about it.
Posted: Fri Jun 07, 2002 3:04 am
by Ode to a Grasshopper
Originally posted by fable
@Ode, there are plenty of nations with much looser censorship restrictions, but their pornography trade is identical to what can be seen over here in the US. Pornography is a big, multinational business. It exists aside from censorship laws, and probably always will, because it has the political clout to do so.
The problem being that the levels of censorship often have an impact upon society's attitudes towards a topic. This is just rehashing the point that HLD made earlier, though, so I'll just say see his earlier comment, and leave it there.