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@Fable:

When I say work with the political leaders to maintain a status quo, I don't mean between the political leaders and the "church" - I mean towards the "common people".
I know there are numorus examples of the religion conflicting with the rulers, but I'm still pretty convinced that the religious leaders have used religion to maintain the "upper hand" towards it "flock", to keep them content with their lifes so to speak.

Case in point (not to step on anyones toes) there is the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They preach political more than they do religon.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no provision in the US Constitution declaring the 'separation of church and state' per se. What the Constitution says is that the government shall not 'form' a 'state' religion. So the advocates of keeping prayer, and even the Pledge of Alliegence (because of 'under God'), out of the schools by citing 'separation of church and state' are using a very liberal and wrong interpretation to further their political agenda.

[ 05-15-2001: Message edited by: Anatres ]

Anyone here ever heard of Pascal’s Wager? Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) was a French mathematician and philosopher who came up with an intriguing way to look at atheism vs. belief.

PASCAL'S WAGER:
EITHER God exists or he doesn't.
Which alternative will you wager on?
You can't avoid choosing one or the other;
you have embarked on the wager already.
A refusal to choose carries the same result
as choosing that God does not exist.
What if you choose to bet that God exists?
If you win, you win everything;
if you lose, you lose nothing.
Make a bet that God exists."

Infrequently has the power of this argument been denied, even by those who don't find it compelling. The risk of not believing in God, if he does exist, far outweighs the risk of believing in God if he does not exist. The gamble is between eternal damnation on one hand and philosophical misjudgment on the other. If we believe and are wrong we've lost little, but if we don't believe and are wrong we've lost everything. Pascal believed that reasonable men should bet on God's existence.

Another question for the Americans...

When a witness testifies in court. Does he have to swear on the bible to tell the truth?

"If you win, you win everything;
if you lose, you lose nothing.
Make a bet that God exists."

If by winning, I end up in constant contact with a god who will damn people to literally an eternity of awful pain simply because they made the perfectly natural error of not believing in him, I'd just as soon opt out from the company of such a crazed lunatic.

Another topic on religion, god, and the U.S government.

God: God is an imaginary being created to blame for everything bad that happens and to praise when something good happens.

Religion: Religion is a way to keep people together. It is emant to answer questions, and for people who have nothing religion is their answer and sometimes those people are fiercely devoted to their religon, much lile the commoners in the Crusades. They had such a devotion to their religion they marched of for thousands of miles for the Pope, while infact the pope just wanted the power and glories and took advantage of the poor folk's loyalty.

hi

i guess with such an intriguing topic, i'll add a few words of my own.

religion is a working myth (i'm a big joseph campbell fan). whenever this so call apacolypes appear for christens all over the world, it will signify not the end of the world but the end of christenity as a working religion only to be replaced with another belief system. it goes for all religions now being practiced. look at the greeks, nordic, eygpt,babylon. at one point in time people belived in those gods and their ventures and now here we are thinking them only as quaint historic stories of a barbaric civiliztion. but they served their purpose to those people and we are forever reminded of the awe they instill through the power of art.
because we being human and are fallible, religion will in the end be used as a tool to whomever is in power. that is why we admire the saints and scorn the administrators. i still can't believe that the world was crying when princess di died and mother teresa only got a sniffle



whether god or not god existed, i believe he does and here is why. we cannot live without the ideal of god no more than god cannot live without man. we give the idea of god power through our beliefs, and god give us a sense of direction. besides i think that we as the human race is the soul of god. each indiviual, like a brain cell to a collective spirituality.

as to the different religions whoshipping the same god...yes, just the difference in the how and why as well as the cultural identity of those who practice it.
because

all are true
all are lies
we cannot see the other side
shadows play
mirrors hide
masks reveals

i would like to know how a married couple deal with having different beliefs. my husband is a devoted christain and well... i'm kind of a hodgepodge of all the religions roll into one.

@Flagg; not any more. 'Do you solemnly swear or .....affirm'.

EDIT: Oh, and no Bible any longer either. Not so much a concession to 'church and state' as much as to liberalness and the concept that no religion is better than Christianity alone (regardless that this country was founded on the principles of Calvinism).

[ 05-15-2001: Message edited by: Anatres ]

Jennabard writes:
i would like to know how a married couple deal with having different beliefs. my husband is a devoted christain and well... i'm kind of a hodgepodge of all the religions roll into one.

My wife's a lapsed Methodist who laughs at ritual, and I'm--well, I don't know that there is a term for it, though a number of monotheists I'm sure would be delighted to provide something like "vile pagan heretic" or whatever. We don't discuss religion much at all, not because we disagree, but because we have so much else to exchange in our thoughts and feelings, so much that's person between ourselves rather than transpersonal between one of us and any deity(ies) we believe in.

We never, ever bring up religion in front of my wife's folks, because she's got a fundamentalist minister/missionary for an uncle, and a grandfather whos's a fundamentalist deacon. This is *not* a battle either of us chooses to fight.

Originally posted by ThorinOakensfield:
<STRONG>God: God is an imaginary being created to blame for everything bad that happens and to praise when something good happens.</STRONG>

Logically, then, you yourself are a figment of the imagination, are you not? And that time I got fired...It's YOUR fault, Thorin O., figment of my imagination!!!!!!! IT'S YOUR FAULT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i know what you mean about parents in law, fable, i tend to not talk to them except in polite easy conversations
we don't talk much of religion , either. its because he wants me to see that christians as being right and only way; he feels that i'm too worldly.
i like rituals of faith, i find them very comforting. being half italian and korean, i've find spirituality in both eastern and western thought. i guess i see my road in life not as a straight and narrow path but a wide and ever changing-changeless sea.

Originally posted by fable:
<STRONG>If by winning, I end up in constant contact with a god who will damn people to literally an eternity of awful pain simply because they made the perfectly natural error of not believing in him, I'd just as soon opt out from the company of such a crazed lunatic.</STRONG>

You’re forgetting that God has an adversary (at least in the Judeo/Christian religion) who runs hell and is the one responsible for bringing people down below. He may be a distant relative of Buck’s but I can’t for the life of me remember his name… Blaming God for hell is like blaming FDR for Hitler’s crimes. That being said I am rather fond of Nietzsche, who’s about as godless as you can get.

"Is man one of God's blunders, or is God one of man's blunders?"
-Friedrich Nietzsche

I wonder who will agree with me on the following.

I belief that human beings are by their nature selfish individuals. Most of what we do, we do to feel better about ourselves. I belief this is valid in every single aspect of life. Loving someone else is also a way of feeling good about ourselves. Does this principle also apply to believing in God?

Wow - profound thread .

Just for the record, and despite the best efforts of my parents, I remain firmly in the agnostic/sceptic camp. I would never belittle those for whom faith in a spiritual belief is a comfort and inspiration. Any faith which preaches tolerance/acceptance of diversity etc is fine in my book. I just find it so profoundly saddening that history is littered with Holy Wars, Jihaads, pogroms etc. where the object has been to persecute those of other faiths or beliefs.

My personal credo is "Life is not a dress rehearsal".

I have my own moral compass and as long as I do no intentional harm to others and try in my limited way to make the lives of my friends acquaintances etc. a reasonably pleasant experience, then I will be content.

Finally, if you want an example of a fictious work which explores the idiocy of an extreme religious tenet then I suggest you check out "Confessions of a Justified Sinner" by the little known Scots author James Hogg.

Regards

Mouse

Originally posted by Kayless:
[QB]You’re forgetting that God has an adversary (at least in the Judeo/Christian religion) who runs hell and is the one responsible for bringing people down below.
[QB]

Indeed; however Satan has no power over the human will. He can't really "bring" anyone anywhere. The individual person sends him/herself to Hell due to choices they've made, the way they've lived their life, attitudes, etc. etc....You end up in Hell when you refuse to love. Of course this is my theology with which many others will strongly disagree...

@Flagg: I believe that selfishness is the root cause of every single evil. I suppose that belief in God could also be a form of selfishness, the "getting into Heaven" thing; but like everything else, it needn't be so.

@flagg- definitly, most don't think of god intil we need something from him. either comfort inour darkest need to asking for the winning numbers for the lotto.

the adversary of god is still a part of god. evil has to exist within god before it takes a life of its own. if god created everything in the universe like most believe, then evil is within the sphere of god.
therefore the question ends up being can god exist if there is no evil?

@Loner, How many people help out other people to feel good about themselves? That doesn't make them bad people though. I just think that it is a bit easy to say that selfishness is the root of all evil....

There are also beliefs out there that argue that God and The Devil are actually one and the same...

@Flagg -- Well, I didn't mean to say that all selfishness is bad. Selfishness can be put to good uses. A healthy selfishness makes us take care of ourselves, and also, as you say, inspires the generous person who feels good when they help others. I only meant that if you take an evil, you'll find that an unhealthy selfishness was its cause. Theft: selfishness, "I want that." Murder: selfishness, "That person is in my way." General abuse of other human beings: selfishness, the lust for power...etc. etc...

@jennabard -- in the Christian tradition Satan is one of the fallen angels, and so was originally created by God. Interesting...I believe that God can exist w/o the force of evil, since God is the Creator and entirely self-sufficient...whether evil will always exist or not, whether it is a universal force or unique to our own messed-up world, is a mystery to me...

[ 05-15-2001: Message edited by: loner72 ]

@Kayless: there are some counter-arguments to the wager, such as the perverse deity (a god punishes those who believe in him).

Also, if one were to believe in god simply because of the potential benefits, could they really be said to have faith? If god really does punish those who do not believe in him (which is problematic in itself), then he may punish those who believe in him for selfish purposes!

I agree that the wager offers an interesting take on belief in god, but I don't think there is any logical argument for belief in god.