Your Favourite Bush

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 7:42 pm

@Sailor Saturn: I'm sorry if you feel offended or hurt by our making fun of president Bush's public speech-errors.

I think none of us intent to make fun out of people with problems is this area, at least I know I am not.

The reason why I find Bush's errors hillarious but I would never laugh at yours, is that he is the president of the US. If you were raised in a multimillinare family, had graduated from Yale, and had all the opportunites that Bush have, it's very unlikely that you would still have those problems with reading aloud or misreading.

An example: The Swedish king used to make a lot of strange spelling and speeching errors that people made fun of. At one occation, he was supposed to sign a sigil which should be used as a blueprint for some jubilee-coins, and he actually mispelled his own title "Knig Carl Gustav XVI" instead of King. (Knug instead of Kung in Swedish). People laughed their head off, and the tabloid press of course made a big affair of it. Then, the king came forward and admitted he is actually suffering from dyslexia. After that, nobody made fun of him anymore. And over the years, his speech and writing has improved greatly, since he has worked hard and received the best profession help.

Now, my point is: Certainly Bush would have access to the best help there is, if he has problems with language functioning. With this in mind, I find it quite strange that he still makes factual mistakes such as "we are a part of Europe" or that Africa is a nation or that "it's time for the human race to enter the solar system". Personally, I don't think Bush really has language problems, rather, I think he would avoid those mistakes if he increased his awareness and concentration when making public speeches, and perhaps also participate more in his own speech-writing.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 8:01 pm

C Elegans writes:
The reason why I find Bush's errors hillarious but I would never laugh at yours, is that he is the president of the US. If you were raised in a multimillinare family, had graduated from Yale, and had all the opportunites that Bush have, it's very unlikely that you would still have those problems with reading aloud or misreading.

I'd second CE's remarks. Bush's remarks are a source of humor because in part, all his wealth, elitism, prestige, and power cannot prevent his constant verbal stumbling. It reminds me of an old Nederlands proverb I used to hear: "The higher up someone goes on the ladder of success above you, the easier it is to see their butt." Laughing at Bush's butt is all many of us can do, given that his political actions are so disagreeable to us. Laughter is the weapon of the disadvantaged.

@SS, nobody on this forum that I've seen is insensitive to the disabilities of others, and several of us have 'em--I've had chronic asthma since birth. We can relate to that. All we can't relate to is George Dubbyah. There's a world of difference.

Um, and kisama really is a little more than anybody in this forum deserves. That is a pretty shaming thing to say to anybody--but under the circumstances, not as big a deal as it might otherwise be.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 8:50 pm

@C Elegans I understand what you're saying, but most people take it too far, such as those who dislike him because of his speech mistakes. On many occasions, I have teased people about their speech mistakes. But that's all it is.

Even the best actor/actress messes up their lines. The only difference between that and a president is that the president can't do a retake.

I haven't grown up in a rich family; but, though poor, my family lives better than a lot of families that have a heckuva lot more money than us. I may not have had the same oppurtunities as Bush, but I've had more than you might realize. *makes note that she is not bragging, she is merely explaining what she means* I have a genius IQ, I skipped 11th and 12th grade and went straight to university. I'm going for my Ph.D. in Physics, as well as a B.S. in Computer Science, Linguistics, and either Marine Biology or Psychology. I could, very easily, become far more famous and well known than Bush. Because of my major, I'm having to take a Public Speaking class this semester. The thing that scares me most about it is that the problem I have when reading will manifest itself as it usually does and there will be people like the baka I was talking about who will make fun of me for it and all that.

IF Bush's speech mistakes are caused by the same thing that causes mine, then it doesn't matter if he writes his own speeches or not.

"Do not worry about the speck in your brother's eye when you have a plank in your own eye." ~semi-paraphrased quote of Jesus during the Sermon on the Mount(or wherever it is that he said this).

If you're going to hold Bush's speech trouble against him, first make sure you have no speech(including typing what you say here) problems of your own. Otherwise, all you are is a hypocrite.

@fable I'm not saying that his mistakes ain't funny. But, as my Public Speaking professor said, "Americans are the rudest audience in the world." How would you like it if you were giving a speech and everyone in the country constantly, long after the speech, made fun of you and called you an idiot all because you made mistakes in your speech?

I'm probably sounding a bit harsher than I mean to sound, but I know what it's like. I do laugh at my reading mistakes at times, sometimes because what I read in place of what's there is so differen from what's there that I can't help but laugh. I know that Bush laughs/has laughed at his speech mistakes, too. However, I also know that it gets tiresome and begins to lower your self-esteem after a while. Just as I don't need my self-esteem lowered, neither does Bush. If you want a President to do a good job, encourage him when he does good and don't dwell on the mistakes.

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:05 pm

Sailor Saturn raises her glaive, and writes:
@fable I'm not saying that his mistakes ain't funny. But, as my Public Speaking professor said, "Americans are the rudest audience in the world." How would you like it if you were giving a speech and everyone in the country constantly, long after the speech, made fun of you and called you an idiot all because you made mistakes in your speech?

Well, difficult as it is to predict under those circumstances, if I was giving speeches and wasn't involved in the writing of them, I feel I would deserve at least a large measure of any criticisms on my delivery. And if I had the most powerful job in the country, I would just sit back, shrug, and ignore it. I could afford to.

But Americans aren't the rudest audience, by any means. Do you know what Italian audiences are like? They translate verbal abuse into physical assault. They'll actually rush the stage and attack performers if they're displeased. They'll pelt politicians with vegetables--which is step up from the way they treated the Pope back in the Renaissance, when he arrived back in Rome after a less than triumphal military engagement. What they pelted him with at that point won't bear repeating, here.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:29 pm

Originally posted by fable:
Well, difficult as it is to predict under those circumstances, if I was giving speeches and wasn't involved in the writing of them, I feel I would deserve at least a large measure of any criticisms on my delivery. And if I had the most powerful job in the country, I would just sit back, shrug, and ignore it. I could afford to.

But Americans aren't the rudest audience, by any means. Do you know what Italian audiences are like? They translate verbal abuse into physical assault. They'll actually rush the stage and attack performers if they're displeased. They'll pelt politicians with vegetables--which is step up from the way they treated the Pope back in the Renaissance, when he arrived back in Rome after a less than triumphal military engagement. What they pelted him with at that point won't bear repeating, here.

[ 08-22-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

That's not rude, that's just plain mean. What my Public Speaking professor was talking about was just the way they 'listen' to a speaker and the way they verbally abuse.

You could afford to take verbal abuse in that situation, eh? You might could afford medical help if they rush the 'stage' and beat you up, but the kind of harm verbal abuse causes is VERY different. Money doesn't really have any effect on how other people's opinion's make you feel. In fact, from what I've seen, people with MORE money tend to worry MORE about what others think of them, which makes verbal abuse cause more emotional/psychological harm. A poorer person is going to be more used to being looked down upon by those who are "better off."

*sigh* It may just be a matter of opinion on the subject...but having been someone who has always been outcast and ridiculed...it really hits a nerve when such things are done to other people without just cause...

Weasel · Post by **Weasel** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 9:33 pm

Originally posted by fable:


But Americans aren't the rudest audience, by any means. Do you know what Italian audiences are like? They translate verbal abuse into physical assault. They'll actually rush the stage and attack performers if they're displeased. They'll pelt politicians with vegetables--which is step up from the way they treated the Pope back in the Renaissance, when he arrived back in Rome after a less than triumphal military engagement. What they pelted him with at that point won't bear repeating, here.

My wife is Italian.

I'm always getting physical assaulted.

(J/K)

fable · Post by **fable** » Wed Aug 22, 2001 10:39 pm

Sailor Saturn writes:
That's not rude, that's just plain mean.

The Italians? No, that's just a very...interactive culture.

They heap with praise what they love, they throw into a heap what they hate. It has its good and bad points, but then my perspective, while different, is culturally subjective, too.

You could afford to take verbal abuse in that situation, eh?

When you have the power, it's silly not to. If you acknowledge criticisms by responding to them or worse, attacking back, you give them credibility.

I was in a situation, once, managing a public radio station, when a member of our public advisory board deliberately took remarks I made out of context in order to launch a preemptive strike at some program changes being considered. I didn't attack her; I let others who had been at that meeting write in letters in answer to hers, in the main newspaper, calling her to task. Ultimately she was interviewed for television, and her story went to pieces. She really looked bad, but I didn't treat her any differently before, or after, the incident.

*sigh* It may just be a matter of opinion on the subject...but having been someone who has always been outcast and ridiculed...it really hits a nerve when such things are done to other people without just cause...[/QUOTE]

You have to let go of it, or at the least, learn to discriminate between subjective feelings and objective reality, especially if you're gonna wield that Saturn glaive.

I can sympathize with the difficulty in accomplishing this, because I was subjected to a lot of physical and verbal abuse as a child. I've found that if you find yourself wincing, putting yourself too much in the "victim's" persona, it's best to stop reading, or watching, or listening. Separate yourself from the outside impressions.

Hope that helps, for what it's worth.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Minerva · Post by **Minerva** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 2:47 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
I knew there would be other people here who know what that word means. I apologize if it offended you. The only people I meant to offend with it are those who are constanly making fun of Bush's speech mistakes. I did 'carefully' chose my wording. I had originally typed baka, then decided that wasn't a strong enough word to get across how I feel on the matter; though normally, I try to avoid using the word "kisama" because I do not normally use such offensive language in any language. Again, I apologize to any who I have offended that don't fit within the category of baka that I was trying to offend.

SS, I am more offended by the fact you chose Japanese to offend others. Whichever words you used, you wanted to use strong words but not to do so in the language everyone can understand. Only people who were offended are those who do speak Japanese, like myself. It is not fare, is it? If you want to offend someone, do so in English and take a risk to be warned or banned by moderators. My language is not there for you to abuse or offend other people.

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 3:10 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
<snip>
@Xandax: I especially love the "We are a part of Europe".
<snip>

My favorite is the "Rioters are to blame for rioting" and the "killers are to blame for the killing" *ROFL*

But still, I don't think any of Bush' qoutes still come close to Al Gore "took the initiative in creating the Internet"

Thanx Al

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: Xandax ]

KidD01 · Post by **KidD01** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 5:27 am

My favorite Bush ? The unshaved one ?

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 5:30 am

Originally posted by KidD01:
My favorite Bush ? The unshaved one ?

Uh Uh Uh - I had a great reply to this - but I'd better behave myself - would wanna get topics deleted

- So you must just live in suspence of what might had been

rapier · Post by **rapier** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 5:51 am

Originally posted by Minerva:
SS, I am more offended by the fact you chose Japanese to offend others. Whichever words you used, you wanted to use strong words but not to do so in the language everyone can understand. Only people who were offended are those who do speak Japanese, like myself. It is not fare, is it? If you want to offend someone, do so in English and take a risk to be warned or banned by moderators. My language is not there for you to abuse or offend other people.

Heh, one of my favourite pastimes, using German in Us games to p*ss off others...

C Elegans · Post by **C Elegans** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 6:56 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
@C Elegans I understand what you're saying, but most people take it too far, such as those who dislike him because of his speech mistakes.

I certainly agree with you that noone should be disliked as a person because of language mistakes. Also, I think formal language mistakes should not overshadow the content of the speech/writing.

I may not have had the same oppurtunities as Bush, but I've had more than you might realize.

I'm happy to hear your circumstances have been good, and that you are now heading towards an academic career in very interesting subjects. Good luck both in your studying and your Public Speech course

But still, the possibilites you and I have for improving our speech techniques and speecher skills, are not comparable to what GW Bush has had.

I have a genius IQ, I skipped 11th and 12th grade and went straight to university. I'm going for my Ph.D. in Physics, as well as a B.S. in Computer Science, Linguistics, and either Marine Biology or Psychology. I could, very easily, become far more famous and well known than Bush.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn in the other Bush thread: 
I pay absolutely no attention to politics or any of that shlit. Thus, I don't know anything about anything Bush has done as President and I don't care to know. However, if "the way (he?) talks" is his accent, I will hunt you down and shoot you, as well as do many other unpleasent things to you.

Many people distance themselves from modern politicts because they feel it's too complex to grasp, and there's too much information that has to be taken in. Since you describe you have superior studying skills, I really think it's a pity you're so totally uninterested in politics.

The taking in a lot of complex information would probably be a lot easier for you than for many others.

If you're heading towards a career in science, and think you are going to be very famous, it's even more of a pity

I hope you will reconsider in the future, since many scientific fields also raises political concerns. (Just look at the recent stem cell debate, for instance.) As scientists we are constantly pushing the limits by chaning knowledge and seeking new knowledge, and thus, I think we also have certain responsibilities.

Anyway, I'm very sorry to hear you have been treated badly by people because of your language problems. But as Fable says, it's very important to be able to separate interal feelings from one's judgement of others. Hopefully, your studying and the feeling of doing something you like and are interested in, will make this sore point heal

If you're going to hold Bush's speech trouble against him, first make sure you have no speech(including typing what you say here) problems of your own. Otherwise, all you are is a hypocrite.

Personally, I think this is not a valid argument for not being allowed to critisise Bush's errors. The idea that one should be perfect oneself in order to be allowed to critisise others, is both illogical and unfair to me. It's just a variant of the "two wrongs make a right" issue.

Also, a comment about using other languages that English on this board:
I support Minervas views here. Since this is an international board, I think all of us should post exclusively in English, and if we are to use words in other languages (for instance, because we don't know the English word for something), we should clearly explain the meaning of that word. Posting offensive expression in languages not understood by the majority of the members here, is IMO a cheap way of eluding both reactions from other members and Moderators. I don't think you meant it that way SS, so please refrain from posting Japanese words in the future.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: C Elegans ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:18 am

Originally posted by Minerva:
SS, I am more offended by the fact you chose Japanese to offend others. Whichever words you used, you wanted to use strong words but not to do so in the language everyone can understand. Only people who were offended are those who do speak Japanese, like myself. It is not fare, is it? If you want to offend someone, do so in English and take a risk to be warned or banned by moderators. My language is not there for you to abuse or offend other people.

To be honest, I'm offended by your assumptions. I have more respect for languages than you realize. I did not use your language just to abuse or offend. As I said, "kisama" is a word I rarely use. In fact, I think that is the first time I have ever actually USED the word. I rarely use such strong language in English and I never use it in any language other than English and Japanese because I don't know the necessary words. I know at least some of about five different languages. The reason I chose to say it in Japanese is because that was the quicker way to say it and the shorter way to say it. I fully expected most people on this board to know what that word means. Maybe my 'assumption' was wrong and most people here don't know what it means, but the people I've been chatting with for over a year now all know what it and many other Japanese words/phrases mean. Your assumption that I was trying to avoid the reactions that would've come of saying the same thing in English is wrong. I see why you're offended, but you really shouldn't be. The use of that word and that language has nothing to do with you or my respect for you language or me wanting to avoid flames(if I wanted to avoid flames, I'd have not posted that post at all). I used it purely for the conciseness and meaning of the word itself. I honestly did not mean to offend you. You may not have noticed, but I tend to use some Japanese often. That is because Japanese is my favorite language, though I still only know a small amount of it. If you're still offended and not accepting of my apology, then Bite Me.

Mr Sleep · Post by **Mr Sleep** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:30 am

Is this going to descend any furhter?

Xandax · Post by **Xandax** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:32 am

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<snip> As I said, "kisama" is a word I rarely use. In fact, I think that is the first time I have ever actually USED the word. I rarely use such strong language in English and I never use it in any language other than English and Japanese because I don't know the necessary words. I know at least some of about five different languages. The reason I chose to say it in Japanese is because that was the quicker way to say it and the shorter way to say it. I fully expected most people on this board to know what that word means. Maybe my 'assumption' was wrong and most people here don't know what it means, but the people I've been chatting with for over a year now all know what it and many other Japanese words/phrases mean. <snip>

Well I know not many japanese words, so that word completely blew past me, but thanks to the internet, I quickly got it translated.
(though proberly not in its use in this thread, just in a (semi-)literacy way)

But I have to agree with the others about using words outside english should be kept to a minimum because you can't be sure that most people know it and because "its use" can be misinterpet.

fable · Post by **fable** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:44 am

Sailor Saturn writes:
If you're still offended and not accepting of my apology, then Bite Me.

@SS, please--don't do this. I'm not referring to the posting, but to the taking it personally, again. This is a ladder of emotional escalation that leads nowhere good.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 8:54 am

Originally posted by fable:
@SS, please--don't do this. I'm not referring to the posting, but to the taking it personally, again. This is a ladder of emotional escalation that leads nowhere good.

[ 08-23-2001: Message edited by: fable ]

I'm being verbally attacked for using a word that is within my vocabulary of words to use and you're telling me to not take it personally?

Though they are of five different languages, every word in MY vocabulary is part of MY language.

Fezek · Post by **Fezek** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:02 am

Here is my fave Bush;

"I, George W Bush, do solemnly swear..."

I think he said it at his inauguration speech ..

Sailor Saturn · Post by **Sailor Saturn** » Thu Aug 23, 2001 9:07 am

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Many people distance themselves from modern politicts because they feel it's too complex to grasp, and there's too much information that has to be taken in. Since you describe you have superior studying skills, I really think it's a pity you're so totally uninterested in politics. The taking in a lot of complex information would probably be a lot easier for you than for many others.

*shrugs* Probably, but I just don't have the time or patience.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
If you're heading towards a career in science, and think you are going to be very famous, it's even more of a pity I hope you will reconsider in the future, since many scientific fields also raises political concerns. (Just look at the recent stem cell debate, for instance.) As scientists we are constantly pushing the limits by chaning knowledge and seeking new knowledge, and thus, I think we also have certain responsibilities.

I don't know anything about the stem cell debate, but I do know about there being problems between science and politics. That's why I plan on having my only lab and not working for the government, at least as far as research is concerned.

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Personally, I think this is not a valid argument for not being allowed to critisise Bush's errors. The idea that one should be perfect oneself in order to be allowed to critisise others, is both illogical and unfair to me. It's just a variant of the "two wrongs make a right" issue.

You're going to the extreme of what I said. If you think about what I'm really saying, I think you'll agree. Basically what I'm saying is "Don't decide you don't like someone because they have trouble speaking correctly when you yourself have trouble speaking correctly."

Originally posted by C Elegans:
Also, a comment about using other languages that English on this board:
I support Minervas views here. Since this is an international board, I think all of us should post exclusively in English, and if we are to use words in other languages (for instance, because we don't know the English word for something), we should clearly explain the meaning of that word. Posting offensive expression in languages not understood by the majority of the members here, is IMO a cheap way of eluding both reactions from other members and Moderators. I don't think you meant it that way SS, so please refrain from posting Japanese words in the future.

Gomen, but I'll not refrain from using Japanese words. As I have previously stated, any word in my vocabulary is part of my language. I don't know about those who live in other countries, but I have freedom of speech to use whatever words are in my vocabulary. While I do not believe this includes offensive language(such as "kisama"), I will not refrain from using the other words in my vocabulary.