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Is there actually a problem? If we continue to heat up the world, there will be an ice age, humanity will be decimated and only the strong will survive to live on in a new paradise. Problem solved.

Malta Soron wrote:Is there actually a problem? If we continue to heat up the world, there will be an ice age, humanity will be decimated and only the strong will survive to live on in a new paradise. Problem solved.

The problem is that in our continued desecration of this planet humanity is not only destroying itself but many other species along with it.
Were it just that humans were only hurting themselves I might be less concerned, but we are leaving massive havoc and devastation in the wake of our "progress."

dragon wench wrote:The problem is that in our continued desecration of this planet humanity is not only destroying itself but many other species along with it.
Were it just that humans were only hurting themselves I might be less concerned, but we are leaving massive havoc and devastation in the wake of our "progress."

Unfortunately that will *always* be the case with humans since it is our nature.

DaemonJ wrote:Unfortunately that will *always* be the case with humans since it is our nature.

You make me wonder: if it is our nature, is there anything we can do about it? Can we stop it (other then by exterminating humanity)? Can we even judge people for doing it?

Malta Soron wrote:You make me wonder: if it is our nature, is there anything we can do about it? Can we stop it (other then by exterminating humanity)? Can we even judge people for doing it?

In order: Yes, no, yes.

It would be simple to change and slow or even halt the warming effect but it wouldn't be 'easy'

Magrus wrote:In order: Yes, no, yes.

As in 'humans are guilty of existing'?

Malta Soron wrote:As in 'humans are guilty of existing'?

That's quite a jump, and I doubt that's what Magrus meant. I think Magrus meant that human beings can be judged for the choices they make, which is completely different from judging them for "existing".

You seem to be suggesting that human beings are like automatons--that is, given their nature, their behavior is inevitable, there's nothing they can do about it, and you can't judge them unless you condemn their very existence. Is that the way you see human beings?

Malta Soron wrote:As in 'humans are guilty of existing'?

Humans are guilty of the supremely arrogant and convoluted concept that they are the best/most powerful species on the planet. For the simple reason that they have been able to kill off or outsmart all of the other species. Humans may have intelligence, but wisdom is severly lacking. Just because someone has power, does not mean they should use it to do whatever they want. I can go out and take damn near whatever I wanted and kill nearly whomever I wanted with my bare hands being a tall, physically imposing young man. Do I do so? No. However, humans destroy or enslave nearly anything they encounter, just because they think they are the best life form on the planet. Nearly all of the problems on this planet are the direct result of humanity, and therefore, they are guilty.

In evolutionary terms, the moment one species gains the advantage over another, they'll become the dominating one. Just because we kill thousands of badgers with our cars each year doesn't mean we outsmarted or gained a critical evolutionary advantage over them. It means nothing, but it just shows we're stupid enough not to care. I say that's how we've been succeedingly wiping out most species.

It really is supposed to stop being an 'advantage' the moment we run out of clean air to breath, fresh water to drink and good music to listen to anyway.

Badger badger badger..

Magrus wrote:Humans are guilty of the supremely arrogant and convoluted concept that they are the best/most powerful species on the planet. For the simple reason that they have been able to kill off or outsmart all of the other species. Humans may have intelligence, but wisdom is severly lacking. Just because someone has power, does not mean they should use it to do whatever they want. I can go out and take damn near whatever I wanted and kill nearly whomever I wanted with my bare hands being a tall, physically imposing young man. Do I do so? No. However, humans destroy or enslave nearly anything they encounter, just because they think they are the best life form on the planet. Nearly all of the problems on this planet are the direct result of humanity, and therefore, they are guilty.

So your view is not deterministic, but contains that humans are stupid and/or evil and should be punished for that?

VonDondu wrote:You seem to be suggesting that human beings are like automatons--that is, given their nature, their behavior is inevitable, there's nothing they can do about it, and you can't judge them unless you condemn their very existence. Is that the way you see human beings?

No, I was trying to understand Magrus for the sake of understanding, so for me it's more of a thought experiment.

Aegis wrote:Though, more than Kyoto needs to happen to solve the problem, it is at least a start, but as long as the Western world has such a consumer driven society which emphasizes big cars, big guns, big spending, nothing will ever happen. Simply put, we are slowly killing ourselves...

A start would be if Kyoto actually happened... Some of the rather large producers of greenhouse gasses either didn't sign, have later left the agreement or simply don't keep the agreement.

I'm all for "saving the planet". I think a catastrophe killing off all humans is probably exactly what the planet needs... I mean, we might actually come up with something later that will permanently destroy the planet and it's ability to sustain life, present as well as future. Global warming is just bad for the current version of life on the planet, especially the larger variety.

The melting of the poles has accelerated over the last 15-20 years, which is most easily seen on satellite pictures of the Antarctic. You can actually see the difference between two winters with your naked eye. Climate change is happening, and I doubt we will have a chance of stopping it before it does. If the politicians feel comfortable bickering some minor details, let them. It won't make any significant difference.

Malta Soron wrote: No, I was trying to understand Magrus for the sake of understanding, so for me it's more of a thought experiment.

You guys really need to get out more. You know, before there is nothing left to get out to.

Malta Soron wrote:So your view is not deterministic, but contains that humans are stupid and/or evil and should be punished for that?

It is, and the result is that they are stupid and evil and should be exterminated for it.

@ Tricky, No, going out leads to sirens and security for me. I have my fun at work and then go home. It is far safer for everyone involved that way.

Magrus wrote:It is, and the result is that they are stupid and evil and should be exterminated for it.

OK, I see. Thanks for explaining

Magrus wrote:It is, and the result is that they are stupid and evil and should be exterminated for it.

Are you preaching the End of Days? "Kneel and repent" stuff?

Chimaera182 wrote:The way I've always seen it, we have two options. Either we kill ourselves slowly, or we kill ourselves quickly. The majority of people tend to lean towards the former, but if more people would lean towards the latter, the world might be a better place.

Better for who?
Suppose you have your majority; what about the minority who does not "lean towards the latter"? Or can't lean towards anything yet because they are, say, little children? Who is to decide their fate?

Anyway, guys, how do you envision the "extermination" itself? Just curious.

@ Malta Soron, You are welcome.

Lady Dragonfly wrote:Are you preaching the End of Days? "Kneel and repent" stuff?

I don't preach hun. Oh, that's funny. I cannot say how many people would stagger and stare if they ever heard someone say they thought I was preaching. :laugh:

Does it matter who they are? Looking at this objectively, humans overall kill anything that moves in a manner that displeases them. Ants go in your house? You spray them or squish them dead. Bees disturb your tranquil garden? Knock down their house and spray them with anything that is poisonous to them and kill them. Predators kill the farmers livestock? Shoot them dead so they can't do so anymore.

Ignore the fact that these creatures are struggling to survive and cannot go anywhere else, becuase there IS no where else that humans haven't claimed as their own. There is no thought of "Well, the raccoon is taking my garbage and waking me up late at night doing so because there is no other food left nearby for them to eat. The best they can find is my garbage, and maybe I should just let him have it in that case." No, someone runs out, shouting and trying to kill the poor thing, becuase it is taking their what? Garbage? Oh yeah, that makes me feel really bad about my thoughts of ending this species I was born into. Even if the way humans treat other species improves 100% over the last 20 years in the next generation, IE todays children, things are going to go to hell on this planet anyhow. The chances of that occuring are very, very low.

My thoughts on how to exterminate the species? I'm not sharing them. I haven't been able to come up with anything concrete that is guaranteed to work without being stopped before completion and without killing off the majority of the rest of the creatures on the planet. So, why would I? Besides, the legal consequences of doing so could be astounding. However, given the fact that nature has gone ahead and started up the existance of itsy bitsy organism, virii and *oh noes* cancer, I'm content to mull it over for quite some time and see how that works out. Humans seem to lack the intelligence to comprehend that maybe they should stop breeding when having sex has a pretty good chance of killing you nowadays. Given that, sooner or later the stupidity will kill off the species in incredible numbers. I just hope I'm not dead by then and can watch.

I'm having a vision of an apocalyptic future where the world is burning; everyone is running around, screaming in despair; everywhere people meet their doom; and Magrus is sitting in an easy chair with popcorn, covering them in the torrent of his evil laughters.

I think I'll join ya

Magrus wrote: My thoughts on how to exterminate the species? I'm not sharing them. I haven't been able to come up with anything concrete that is guaranteed to work without being stopped before completion and without killing off the majority of the rest of the creatures on the planet. So, why would I? Besides, the legal consequences of doing so could be astounding. However, given the fact that nature has gone ahead and started up the existance of itsy bitsy organism, virii and *oh noes* cancer, I'm content to mull it over for quite some time and see how that works out. Humans seem to lack the intelligence to comprehend that maybe they should stop breeding when having sex has a pretty good chance of killing you nowadays. Given that, sooner or later the stupidity will kill off the species in incredible numbers. I just hope I'm not dead by then and can watch.

Unfortunately, the Americans will be the last to go, since they have the most advanced safety labels. I think the latest winner is that you shouldn't wash people in a laundy machine. That should keep everyone safe for a while longer - even from stupidity...

Malta Soron wrote:I'm having a vision of an apocalyptic future where the world is burning; everyone is running around, screaming in despair; everywhere people meet their doom; and Magrus is sitting in an easy chair with popcorn, covering them in the torrent of his evil laughters.

I think I'll join ya

I'm on a low stress program, and that is perfect except I think it would be closer to a bottle of rum and a pizza though. No sense worrying, just have some fun until all goes to hell.

Unfortunately, the Americans will be the last to go, since they have the most advanced safety labels. I think the latest winner is that you shouldn't wash people in a laundy machine. That should keep everyone safe for a while longer - even from stupidity...

:laugh: I forgot about that label! The last time I did laundry in a coin operated shop with one of those machines I caught that one. I was stunned. I mean, they are big machines, but really, wow. I had the initial thought of what "What idiot inspired the mandate that all washing machines and dryers have one of those stuck on them?!" Unfortunately I think you are right. Overall, the American population still has the finances to band together and find protection or ways out of danger as well as a will to survive and an astounding record of surviving things that should kill people off. Someone would need to take a more active role from the inside.