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Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:39 pm
by Vinin
Wow such amazing ideas there are but maybe it is just because you are all older and thus might have more experience in this. However i believe that controlled hitting is just fine for a child, I was hti as a child. My parents never drank adn so this was controlled. I was always whipped for doing something bad and then made to stand in the corner til I was to collapse. However if it does sound awful it really isn't. Ive grown just like every other child, learning and achieving things i never thought was possible like getting a varsity gold medal as a freshman (just today hehe). I've learned from my parents because they would always explain to me why they hit me and they never let me go. So personally i don't see why "hitting" is such a bad thing as long as its controlled. I never knew some kids were never hit by their parents growing up wil now.
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:59 pm
by Zelgadis
Just out of curiosity, in case i ever have a kid like me

, how would you punish a kid who only enjoys distance running, reading, writing, and what he reads are the classics, or math/physics books? You can't ban him from improving his mind or his body. Even physical punishment wouldn't have much effect, since distance running hurts and he'd be kinda used to pain.
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 9:16 pm
by Vinin
You would make him sprint hard adn watch TV
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:02 pm
by Weasel
Originally posted by Vinin
However i believe that controlled hitting is just fine for a child,
Some parents don't understand "controlled hitting".
(On this note...
Here's a true story from my home town.)
4 year old dies under bed after being beat. A 4 year old child! Dead..can you even imagine what was going thru his mind as he laid there dying? Why did mommy hit me? Where is daddy? He spent his last moments of life hide under a bed! Did he deserve parents like this?
And what did the mother of this child get?? Life...which was then turned over and now she walks the streets.
The father? Life (even though he wasn't home at the time of the IMO murder) and guess what...he is still in prison and the chances are he will die there. Still he has some of the blame, black and blue marks the size of grapefruit just don't appear on a child. He should had known something was wrong.
Hitting a child is one thing...beating a child...pray this person doesn't live next door to me...because mark my word I will come over and show this person a beating....with or without a tire iron. A person can raise their child anyway they want....but beating a child is a no no.
Posted: Sat Apr 06, 2002 10:51 pm
by Ode to a Grasshopper
I'm yet another strong-willed (read: stubborn as a mule) one. I used to rationally debate whether or not a punishment was just with my teachers for hours, which always earnt me more punishment under the rationale "Because I said so." This didn't earn them my respect. My parents used to hit me as punishment when I was a kid, but all it did was make me feel resentful and my parents feel guilty. All I really learnt was not to get caught. Sending me to my room never worked because I'm a hopeless bookworm, so to make it punishment they had to go through and take every book away from me. Once they started explaining things everything worked out much better, seeing as how I understood why not to do the wrong thing. About the most effective punishment they ever came up with was playing not letting me see my friends. But then, I was a very introverted child, and rarely caused trouble, or at least very rarely got caught causing trouble, which isn't quite the same thing.
I found the most effective lessons were the ones I found out for myself. When I was very young, about 4, I developed a fixation with my grandma's iron pot-belly fireplace. Every time we'd visit I'd try to touch it, and my mother would frantically stop me. One day my grandma told my mum to leave me alone and let me learn for myself. I got a burnt palm for my troubles, but I sure learnt to be careful with fire.
That said, I now get really nervous when handling hot surfaces, such as ovens, fireplaces and stoves.

Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 2:48 am
by Aragorn Returns
you know, one time i ate nothing but chocolate and sprite for 2 days, i still can't eat chocolate and sprite together without feeling sick...
i'd just like to make mention of a certain book i read, it's called Punished by Rewards, i found it very interesting, it talked about how rewarding children hurts them in the long run. if somebody wants to hear about it i'll talk. maybe someone else has read this book too.
Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 4:45 am
by Yshania
@Zelgadis - do you get an allowance that can be stopped? Do you think being given additional chores to do might have an effect? Like I said before, it really depends on the age and personality of the child. If these activites are all you do that you found pleasure in, then I do not think it would cause any long term damage to ban you from one/all for a period of time, depending upon the severity of your deeds

By banning you from running for one week will not cause you to suddenly become unfit, by banning you from your favourite books, will not have you forgetting what you have learned already in such a short period of time. But you might become frustrated/bored enough to think twice next time.....it will always be a case of trial and error, what works well for your five year old, may not be as effective for your ten year old, and may well be inappropriate for your fifteen year old. The same goes in reverse for your expectations of this child, what you might reasonable expect of a fifteen year old, would be too high an expectation for your ten year old, and impossible for your five year old...
@Weasel, that is a tragic story

Unfortunately it is not rare enough. One child abused, is one child too many. Also, IMHO, though the father was absent at the time of the final beating, it does not absolve any responsibility. If there had been a series of abuse, he is the father...he very likely would have been aware in this instance, since the evidence was there to see, and he should have been asking questions. That said, why did the mother walk free while he stays inside? Without knowing the full story, it is difficult to draw a conclusion.
@Aragorn, that book sounds interesting

If you have any specific passages that you would be willing to post, I would be interested reading it. I have read a few books, mainly out of interest, since I have yet to come across a text book kid. One that jumps to mind is 'How To Behave So Your Children Will Too' by Dr Sal Severe. He has some interesting ideas, and combines this with RL stories from more than 500 workshops he conducted across the US.
I found this passage from his book that ties in with the discipline/punishment difference we have discussed:
Redefining Discipline
'When I ask parents how they discipline their children, most parents tell me how they punish their children. They yell, scold, spank, take priviledges away, and restrict their children to their bedrooms. Discipline and punishment are not the same. When used correctly, punishment is a small part of the total discipline process.
Discipline includes all those things that we do as parents to teach our children how to make better decisions. Discipline is teaching children how to make better choices about their behaviour. Discipline is teaching children to be responsible. Discipline is teaching children to think for themselves. Discipline is teaching children that they have the power to choose how they behave. These definitions are completely different from the belief that discipline is punishment. Discipline means teaching decision making.'
Posted: Sun Apr 07, 2002 11:22 pm
by Aragorn Returns
well, basically what the book does is compares giving rewards to people, such as giving allowance, giving money for good grades, you can't drive the car until you have a 3.5, etc. it compares these attitudes parents have to behaviorists such as pavlov and skinner with their pigeons, rats and dogs. i happen to agree very much with this book. For example, if my parents were to say, "if you don't get all A's you can't drive your jeep" i'd say, screw you, and i wouldn't drive my jeep and i wouldn't get all A's. Then they would be forced to drive me to school and it would suck more for them than it would for me. in fact, i deal very badly with any form of punishment or rewards. the reason it says that rewards are bad is because 1.) the lack of a reward is a punishment and 2.) giving rewards can never produce anything more than tmporary obedience. and in fact, in this temporary obediance the work becomes inferiror and the person will simply try to get rewards and will not work at all if they do not feel the reward is fair. i think this book is right on and i would suggest to any parent.
Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2002 4:45 pm
by fable
Originally posted by Weasel
Hitting a child is one thing...beating a child...pray this person doesn't live next door to me...because mark my word I will come over and show this person a beating....with or without a tire iron. A person can raise their child anyway they want....but beating a child is a no no.
One observation psychologists have made is that a perfectly acceptable degree of discipline for one child's psyche is absolute hell on another. There's no easy rule to interacting with your child, simple-minded family tabloids to the contrary. Each kid needs to be dealt with an individual basis, and the child's reactions noted thoroughly. Above all, no matter what degree of discipline is administered, it must be accompanied by love and explanations.
Coming from an environment of parental abuse, I know very well what it's like to be slapped around regularly and shouted at, as though that were somehow a loving corrective for behavior.

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2002 10:32 am
by Beldin
One problem that I've observed with my 6 y.o. daugther is that her response to spoken (or sometimes shouted

) arguments SEEMS to be that of an adult..
Sometimes she looks and acts just like a small adult - and after I explained her WHY something was forbidden or "bad" I discover that she just puts on a show to "get through with it". Sometimes - but not always...
There are situations where I'm really not sure if she UNDERSTANDS all I explained and chooses not to obey or if my explanation goes over her head and I'm the one at fault because I can't explain it in terms she understands... I try to be understanding and "talk it out" with my children, but where to draw the line between explaining everthing and telling them to do it "because I say so" is my REAL problem here...
Comments welcome...
Beldin

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:14 pm
by Ned Flanders
Great topic and there is a lot to be learned here.
First off, with respect to the opinions regarding physical punishment/discipline/abuse, I was hit by my parents. Maybe ten times from the years of 4-10. All hits were open hands to the rump. Never with severity or malice but with enough force to put a strong point across. I probably deserved every one. Usually involved me being a brat in public and the conventional verbal methods were proving ineffective.
That said, I approve of some form of physical use for disciplining/punishment. Would I ever support such means with an closed fist or a first course of action, of course not.
I think Weasel made some good points on this issue. It also seems that levels of physical use need to be defined. There is almost a line drawn that as soon as someone says they approve of physical discipline, they approve of beating children and are irresponsible parents. I'm not trying to jump on anyone's case here; it just seems that only two cases of extremes have been presented thus far.
Moving on, the rest in response to beldin post about difficulties getting a child to understand him. I sympathize with your plight. Allow me to explain mine.
My SO lives with me. She has a nine year old daughter and a seven year old son. We split time with their papa who also lives in the area. He has school years, we have summers, and we always split weekends.
The two are spoiled, no doubt, as both parents compete for what they can provide. Whenever one does something nice for them and the other parents finds out, immediately counter measures are taken to find something better. Meanwhile, I sit in the middle sometimes appalled at how much these two can get away with.
I think the pop is pretty tough on them. Since we get to see less of them, they think they are on vacation whenever they come to our house. They can get pretty out of hand. Now discipline around our home can go as far as communicating the rights and wrongs of their behavior but there isn't ever any punishment because mom doesn't ever want the children to be upset with her for the small amount of time she has with them. I just sort of go with the flow but it gets frustrating. Getting them to do things is easy, they will listen to me. Trying to reason with them, discipline, explain things is tough because they have a mother and father whom they see regularly so it is easy for them to not regard me as an authority figure. I've had so many interruptions during this post I'll just stop here (losing my train of thought).
Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2002 12:41 pm
by Yshania
@Fable *hug*
@Beldin, have you ever asked her to repeat back what you have said? Asked her if she understands and listened to her interpretation?

I have a 6yo and a 4yo...what I expect of each is different - obviously - but I believe my 6yo to be mature enough to understand the expectations I have of him, and my 4yo likewise. They are both very capable of selective deafness...my 4yo? well I have to take her younger age, and different personality, into account...as well as my son's inevitable protests that she might appear to 'get away' with some things he wouldn't. Their ages are close enough to justify his concern, but far enough apart to demand a different level of expectation. To a grumbling point my son accepts this. However, she does
not 'get away' with things, for instance I have an equal level of expectation when it comes to manners and public behaviour. They are both mature enough to understand this...I have sat here listening to their
secret conversations
@Ned, step parenting is a new issue altogether, especially when both birth parents are still in the picture. I was a child of 'broken marriage' my father had custody of us, and was rarely around. He married a few times, and though I rarely saw my mother, many times did I remind my step mothers that they were not my real mother

. This saddens me to a point in hindsight, but it is an effective weapon. I can understand your frustrations *hug* and also your SO's point of view...it is hard in such a position, when you are willing to offer a parenting role, to not step on any toes...
I have a great deal of respect for those who willingly take on other people's children and care enough to want to play an active part in guiding that child

Posted: Thu May 02, 2002 5:10 am
by Beldin
Originally posted by Yshania
[B@Beldin, have you ever asked her to repeat back what you have said? Asked her if she understands and listened to her interpretation?

I have a 6yo and a 4yo...what I expect of each is different - obviously - but I believe my 6yo to be mature enough to understand the expectations I have of him, and my 4yo likewise. They are both very capable of selective deafness...my 4yo? well I have to take her younger age, and different personality, into account...as well as my son's inevitable protests that she might appear to 'get away' with some things he wouldn't. Their ages are close enough to justify his concern, but far enough apart to demand a different level of expectation. To a grumbling point my son accepts this. However, she does
not 'get away' with things, for instance I have an equal level of expectation when it comes to manners and public behaviour. They are both mature enough to understand this...I have sat here listening to their
secret conversations
[/b]
@Ysh: Repeating back has only the effect of somethin similar to ":rolleyes :" in SYM ...
She sometimes starts into her text befor I say ANYTHING - so she has either a VERY good memory, or she understands but CHOOSES not to comply with my rules...
No worries,
Beldin

Posted: Thu May 02, 2002 2:47 pm
by Yshania
Originally posted by Beldin
@Ysh: Repeating back has only the effect of somethin similar to ":rolleyes :" in SYM ...
She sometimes starts into her text befor I say ANYTHING - so she has either a VERY good memory, or she understands but CHOOSES not to comply with my rules...
No worries,
Beldin
She is patronising you already!

I know that one well. My 4yo daughter once said to her dad:
'Daddy, if you give me a lollipop I won't call you stupid!'
Now, apart from finding this extremely entertaining, we had to explain that this is no way to speak to your elders - especially when you are struggling to keep a straight face

(that's my girl!

)
I would say she is wrapping you around her little finger

in a nice, childish manipulative way...my daughter also took the opportunity to remind her father that she 'was only a baby' when chastised for jumping on the furniture - not words we have ever used!
Posted: Thu May 02, 2002 11:26 pm
by Ode to a Grasshopper
Originally posted by Yshania
She is patronising you already!
I know that one well. My 4yo daughter once said to her dad:
'Daddy, if you give me a lollipop I won't call you stupid!'
Now, apart from finding this extremely entertaining, we had to explain that this is no way to speak to your elders - especially when you are struggling to keep a straight face
(that's my girl!
)
I would say she is wrapping you around her little finger
in a nice, childish manipulative way...my daughter also took the opportunity to remind her father that she 'was only a baby' when chastised for jumping on the furniture - not words we have ever used!
I used to do the rolleyes thing...still do, sometimes. Never tried the "Give me a lollipop and I won't call you stupid." idea, though the 'I'm only a child' trick worked like a charm. Sounds like you've both got bright kids

.
The thing you want to watch out for is not to give the same lecture over and over again. My parents did that and one day when I was being told off (I was a terrible child

) I started repeating their entire speech, the same one as always, to them word for word. It got to the point where they just didn't say anything because I was already saying what they were going to anyway.
I got in such trouble for that stunt.
Posted: Fri May 03, 2002 12:36 am
by Beldin
Originally posted by Ode to a Grasshopper
Sounds like you've both got bright kids
.
We'll see about that "

" ...If BOTH of my girls start to develop in that direction I'll have to start to lock my bedroom at night....at least if I want to wake up again....
If I am any indicator of how my kids will grow up I'm in for some interesting and educating (for me) years...
Still - no worries !
Beldin
