GameBanshee Forums

Originally posted by C Elegans



My use of the term "insane" versus "mentally healthy" is rather strict (apart from joking, of course). IMO the term "mentally sound and healhty" should not be equal to "normal", although I know some people use it that way. But when used that way the concept healthy and ill looses it's meaning IMO, since health then becomes a question of what is accepable in a certain group or society. "Normal" is just a statistical contruct, derived from what is considered "average" in a certain culture at a certain time, and it's dangerous to mix up "normal" and "according to majority" with "ill, insane, crazy" since that becomes a way of disrespecting and sometimes even discriminating people who happen to be deviating from standard norms. Only 80 years ago, the mental hospitals were still full of people who were not at all ill, only not behaving as their familes demanded them to.

IMO neither you or the people who call you unreasonable are insane, unless either of you fulfulls the strict critera of psychiatric disorder. Joking is one thing, but if somebody calls you insane, I think you should say "no, I might be behaving in a way you don't view as normal, but that doesn't mean I'm not healthy" or something do that effect.

Not behaving according to set standards should IMO not lead to us accepting that other people view us as insane. I come to think of one of my patients at the ward where I worked, a young man who had volontarity seeked our help because his partner, his boss and his colleagues insisted that he was insane. After a rather long examination of his situation, his background and his thoughs and behaviour, I came to the conclusion that this man was not insane at all - other people viewed him as insane because he had expressed a lot of critisism at his work that led him to have conflicts with other people, and his partner thought he was insane because the partner viewed his critisism as unfounded. However, when I investigated the accusations my patients had expressed towards his boss, they turned out to be true - it was quite pathetic really that all the misdoings of the company was easy to confirm objectively. It seemed like my patients boss has just tried to proclaim my patient was insane in order to make nobody listen to him and hide the dirty affairs of the company. The the boss instead accused my patient of being the cause for all the problems. However, I declared my patient healthy, and the company went on to court. (The company in question was a health care company who provided service to disabled people, but it turned out they had abused the employees rights by threatening them to works extremely long hours, otherwise they would be fired. They had also neglected their clients, not providing the service they had agreed on.)

However, I have also met many patients claming they are not insane but the surroundings unfairly believe they are. Both the patients and his/her surroundings must of course be investigated, and sometimes it's a mix between problems within the patient and problems in the surrounding, and sometimes nothing special at all can be found around a patient, but the patient still thinks the mafia, extra-terrestrials, CIA, KGB and the whole world are conspiring against them and send messages through the plummings or whatever. Many schizophrenic patients have paranoid ideas like that, and schizophrenia is certainly a very severe, clearly identifyable neuropsychiatric disorder

I, myself, have been accused of being insane in both ways. I often get accused of being insane in the way that is 'deviating from the norm,' but I've also been accused of being insane as in having mental disorders, and they're not necessarily very far off with that accusation. I'd rather not have any mental disorders, but from what I've seen while watching those who are 'sane' by both definitions, I have a strong tendancy to prefer to be 'insane' rather than 'sane.' Yes, insanity can reach a point where it's a bad thing, but that's not point. Most things, when put to the extreme, end up as a bad thing.

From what I have seen, it's not "some people" use it to mean different from the norm. It's most people outside of the psychology field use it to mean different from the norm. This is all the more reason I'd rather people as a whole consider me to be insane rather than sane because I want to be different from the norm.

Originally posted by frogus
sanity is not possible on one's own. Being sane is living according to the subconscious desires and motives which have been 'evolved into us' to make us function properly among other people for the furtherment of the human race and the reproduction of our genes. If you just appearred one day out of the void and floated in space with no interaction, then sanity would become redundant because furtherment of the human race and reproduction of genes would be out of the question.

Going by what I just said, we can really boil sanity down into chemical or electrical impulses in the brain which govern our every move. That is why soem people are born insane, the chemicals or sparks or whatever just aren't configured properly, like a faulty machine...(you can talk to CE about this from now...)

even when AN and SS say 'I don't like sanity, it's useless' they are actually proving their sanity by acting in a way which is clearly governed by the ego or sex drive etc i.e. in the way mankind is programmed to.

How is it that my ego or sex drive would decide whether or not I want to be insane?

Frogus, I had to go through a bunch of testing because the school I was attending at the time was sure that I was insane, or somesuch. In this particular case, it wasn't so much me acting different from the norm, but some of the specific actions of mine and the extremity of some of them; including, but not limited to, going from a good mood to suddenly out-of-control with anger with only a small amount of provocation, and a tendancy to get bored quickly and thus do things that got me in trouble. The tests included ones like you might take in school(including an IQ test), blood tests(I hate needles!!), and going to a psychologist. There was nothing wrong with my blood chemistry. The psychologist didn't really observe enough of my behavior to be able to make an accurate observation. And from the tests, they concluded(how valid is this conclusion, CE?) that my strange, eccentric, and disruptive behavior all came from my having a high IQ.

As you can see, my mental health has been questioned in the past, and it's still being questioned even now, just not by anyone that'll do anything to find out if I actually am mentally ill. Aside from occasionally getting depressed(which mostly comes from my phobia of loneliness), though, I'm perfectly happy with whatever mental illness I may or may not have.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go to class. I look forward to reading your comments on!

Since I used to work in a public mental hospital where the majority of people were involuntarily committed, I think I can answer this question.
In American mental hospitals, the criteria for involuntarily committing someone is that it can be proven that the individual is a "danger to themselves or others."
To be admitted, you must be suicidal (actual attempts), homicidal (actual attempts), or unable to care for yourself. The last part is more subjective, but generally it means that you can't/don't feed yourself, bathe yourself, are unable to function at all in society. When you are admitted, you have a court hearing and the hospital has to prove that you meet this strict criteria. I saw a lot of people released by the courts--it's not like the old days where all that was required was that a family member sign you in. These days it's also near impossible to sign yourself in--there is no more funding for voluntary admissions to public mental hospitals. You have to "do" something to show that you are mentally ill--run naked screaming down the street, go to a mental health clinic and cut your wrists in front of them, etc.
I think that people have a lot of misconceptions about the mental health system from movies like One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. That movie was valid for the policies of the 1960's, but things have really reversed themselves since the 1970's.
I've been really upset lately over the American justice system and the way it handles the mentally ill. The criteria for proving guilty by reason of insanity is that you know the difference between right and wrong. This criteria is called the MacNaughton Laws, and dates from the 1800's before Freud or any other developments in what we know about the mentally ill. I've had a lot of patients who murdered someone and were clearly mentally ill. If you asked them, is it wrong to kill someone--they would tell you "yes." A mentally ill person might know it's wrong to kill in general, but feel justified in killing someone based on their delusions and hallucinations--for example, I had a man who cut out the heart of his mother and scattered the pieces of it all over his house. He knew it was wrong to kill in general, but was hearing the voice of God telling him that he had to do this or he would be punished by God, etc. These are called command hallucinations and are the most dangerous form of hallucinations. My patients told me it was impossible to disobey them. Very similar to the Andrea Yates case. The hospital I worked in was in Texas, and they do have a mental hospital that deals only with mentally ill with criminal commitments. I think that putting someone like her in prison is barbaric.

I have been in and out of psychologists my whole life, mostly because people thought I had mental problems, and I did, still do as a matter of fact, People look at you strangely when you say you are crazy, but which is crazier me admitting that I have mental problems or them saying they do not have mental problems and yet still have them. Much of my family in crazy, my dad used to work in a mental hospital, my uncle has been commited several times to a mental hospital(he is certifiably crazy), So I do know something about insanity, it has run rampant in my family and myself my whole life. In any case who is crazier the person who admits he has a problem or the person who admits he has no problem, what I am saying is that nobody is truly sane, can there be anybody who can truly say that they are sane.

C. Elegans I was just joking about letting the crazy people run the world, anyway who's to say they don't already, seems like every important leader has had some mental illness. Perhaps I am being a bit personal, but did you get into neuropsychology just because it was interesting or because you wanted to solve your own personal problems. The joke goes in a mental hospital is that the only difference between the patients and the doctors is that one is wearing the uniform and the other isn't.

Is there any definition of sanity which is acceptable other then one which is defined from a basis of societal norms?

Interesting talk so far, must be something that is on the minds of a lot of people.

Originally posted by Dottie
@CE: But couldnt these disorders in a society were they were accepted be classified as just a "feature", be it a bad one. Like for example while I find it quiet frustrating that i cant fly my greif over that fact evoke little to none sympathy among others. In a society were people could fly things might be different. And in that sense it is still the deviation from the norm that is the actuall disease, not the handicaps that springs from that deviation.

Classification of what is a disease and not is always partly resting on social "norms" of what is considered normal in a society, partly resting on "biological" norm of what is normal (ie cancer is not normal cell development, it's a malfunctioning cell development), and partly resting on how much the person suffers him/herself. I recently had a very interesting discussion about psychiatric illness with a taxi driver from I think Eritrea. He told me that where he used to live, only people who started hearing voices, thought they were somebody/something else, thought they were possessed, etc (what we call psychotic symtoms), were viewed as "mad". Everything else was viewed as normal variation, also conditions we view like disorders, like major depression or anxiety conditions. Such people were taken care of by the whole village until they recovered. When somebody was thought to be mad though, it was viewed as irreversable, so those persons were either allowed to stay in the village and everybody would help them get food etc, or in more rural areas, they were taken to hospitals and usually locked in there. The case with people who are not viewed as "mad" in that society, illustrates how what we call a disorder, is there viewed as a feature, like something that could happen to everybody.

In your case, I would say that in a society where everybody could fly naturally, they must have genes coding for their wings/antigravity ability/biopropeller on the back/whatever. If you can't fly, it will probably be because you lack those genes, because the genes aren't expressed properly, or because something happened during development of your flying system. So that would most likely be classified as disease/handicap much like if you are born without legs in our society.
Whether a deviation should be viewed as a disease or not must be connected to if it makes a functional difference or not, not only on the basis that it is rare. Let's say that I was born with a highly unusual mutation in genes coding for pigment, so I am green. Nobody else is green, so that's an obvious deviation. But does it make a functional difference? Will I get skin cancer easier? Will I live shorter? Does it have any other consequences? If it doesn't make a functional difference, then it can't really be viewed as a disease, only a variation.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

I, myself, have been accused of being insane in both ways. I often get accused of being insane in the way that is 'deviating from the norm,' but I've also been accused of being insane as in having mental disorders, and they're not necessarily very far off with that accusation. I'd rather not have any mental disorders, but from what I've seen while watching those who are 'sane' by both definitions, I have a strong tendancy to prefer to be 'insane' rather than 'sane.' Yes, insanity can reach a point where it's a bad thing, but that's not point. Most things, when put to the extreme, end up as a bad thing.
<snip>
And from the tests, they concluded(how valid is this conclusion, CE?) that my strange, eccentric, and disruptive behavior all came from my having a high IQ.

I must say I find it strange to conclude that your "deviating" behaviour comes from your having a high IQ. Ourbursts of anger, feeling depressed, getting into trouble with other people, etc has no connection to IQ, why should it? IQ is a measurement of educational level and aptitude for further education within a certain culture. So you are more apt for studying and have higher school abilities than the average person of your age, in your country. What has this do to with your problems?
The only way I can see that your school psychologist came to this conclusion is that maybe they reasoned that a high IQ often reflects abilities like good memory and fast information processing, and this may lead boredom and understimulation in school, which in turn may lead to disruptive behaviour. But there are a lot of "maybes" here, IMO a much more thourough investigation than what you described is needed to draw any conclusions about why you have the problems you mentioned.

posted by AbysmalN

C. Elegans I was just joking about letting the crazy people run the world, anyway who's to say they don't already, seems like every important leader has had some mental illness. Perhaps I am being a bit personal, but did you get into neuropsychology just because it was interesting or because you wanted to solve your own personal problems. The joke goes in a mental hospital is that the only difference between the patients and the doctors is that one is wearing the uniform and the other isn't.

Is there any definition of sanity which is acceptable other then one which is defined from a basis of societal norms?

A lot of world leaders don't seem very sane, no Paranoia and megalomania (delusions of one own's grandiosity) springs to mind
I got inte neuropsychology because of my vast interest for the human brain. Nowadays, at least in Europe, it's not as common as earlier that people start doing psychology/psychiatry because of their own problems, it used to be more common back in the 1970's. I think the change is partly because the educations are so long and demanding nowadays, in the 70's the psychologist and physician educations were considerably shorter and less intense than today. People with too much personal problems have difficulties managing those educations. Another reason for the change is probably the "status upgrade" of the professions. 30-40 years ago, only "failed" doctors (those that weren't admitted to the prestigious specialist educations such as surgeoun or cardiologist) became psychiatrists, and psychologists were seen as little more than people who were "kind" to lunatics, not doing a real job.
Nowadays, the area is not a taboo in soceity anymore and neuropsychology/neuropsychiatry has developed a lot as a science thanks to the boost in molecular biology in the 1980's. So today, most people chose to work in the field because of interest and career opinions.

Regarding definitions of "sanity", if sanity equals mental health, there are some criterion based definitions that are not only (but still partly) funded on social norms but rather on life-satisfaction and boht subjective and objective functioning in many different areas. (The GAF scale for instance, axis 5 in DSM-IV. DSM-IV is the international criterion used for diagnosing psychiatric disorders.)

Originally posted by C Elegans
I must say I find it strange to conclude that your "deviating" behaviour comes from your having a high IQ. Ourbursts of anger, feeling depressed, getting into trouble with other people, etc has no connection to IQ, why should it? IQ is a measurement of educational level and aptitude for further education within a certain culture. So you are more apt for studying and have higher school abilities than the average person of your age, in your country. What has this do to with your problems?
The only way I can see that your school psychologist came to this conclusion is that maybe they reasoned that a high IQ often reflects abilities like good memory and fast information processing, and this may lead boredom and understimulation in school, which in turn may lead to disruptive behaviour. But there are a lot of "maybes" here, IMO a much more thourough investigation than what you described is needed to draw any conclusions about why you have the problems you mentioned.

I agree that IQ wouldn't cause those problems, unless there is some other thing associated with high IQ. The boredom and understimulation thing actually is true, though not the cause of all my problems. Some 'proof' of this is in my 1st grade class. I would finish our set of math problems before everyone else, get bored, then get into trouble. The teacher realized this and discussed it with me and my 'rents. I requested that I be given more math problems to do to keep me occupied. The teacher obliged and I stopped getting in trouble during that part of class because I was kept from getting bored.

Now, and it may still be a result of the effects of having a higher IQ, I can get bored, even when I'm doing numerous things. Right now I'm posting here, chatting with various friends on AIM, and listening to music. My mum, for example, can't have that many things going and keep'em all straight. I, however, am actually somewhat bored right now. Please do not think I'm bragging. I do not like the fact that I get bored so easily. It's very frustrating and depressing. If anything, my ability to get bored easily has increased over time to the point that it even affects things such as eating. I won't eat if my meal is 'boring.' Generally this means it has to be spicy or somesuch in order for it to be "interesting" enough for me to eat it, this extending to the point that I've been known to go a couple days without eating because I none of the food offered me was interesting enough.

However, there are other things(possibly/potentially good things) that go along with this 'getting-bored-easy' thing. Because I am bored so often, I spend a lot of time thinking about the two books I'm writing. I also spend time writing poetry when I'm bored, as well as contemplating theoretical possibilities and other things, which is how I've come to so many conclusions about so many things.

You've actually seen some of the things I mentioned. My outbursts of anger have been lessened some by discipline. I used to scream to release anger, but this just got me laughed at, which made me angrier. I've since replaced this with a glare, which allows me to keep an air(sp?) of calmness about myself and the ability to think somewhat rationally even when angry. You've seen this manifested in arguments with fable. I'm rational enough to make actual arguments(as opposed to totally pointless angry gibberish), but still not rational enough to stop, even though I know I should. The wall would also appreciate it if I lessened my anger more.

Someone mentioned being suicidal as a pre-requisite of being insane. I was suicidal for a while a couple years ago(it reached it's worst between summer 2000 and early winter 2000). You know what kept me from committing suicide? The only way I wasn't afraid of dying was, apparently, a fatal car crash because that is the only way of committing suicide that I would even consider(I have low tolerance for pain, so I figured a fatal car wreck would be fast enough that I'd not feel too much pain; I also had no access to any less painful methods). So, what kept me from actually going through with it? I had such a depressingly low opinion of myself that I felt my 1984 Pontiac Firebird was worth far more than my own life and that it would be stupid to wreck that car just to end my own miserable life. Well, at least that extremely low self-esteem kept me alive long enough to meet Random Shadow who gave me more reason to live than just to keep from wrecking my car.

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn

I agree that IQ wouldn't cause those problems, unless there is some other thing associated with high IQ.

No, there are no particular things associated with high IQ apart from the ones we are discussing.

Good that your 1st grade teacher realised you needed more stimulation. What do you think about school now, are you satisfied with the assignements you get there, or would you like more of school related stimulation?


Now, and it may still be a result of the effects of having a higher IQ, I can get bored, even when I'm doing numerous things.
Right now I'm posting here, chatting with various friends on AIM, and listening to music. My mum, for example, can't have that many things going and keep'em all straight. I, however, am actually somewhat bored right now. Please do not think I'm bragging. I do not like the fact that I get bored so easily. It's very frustrating and depressing. If anything, my ability to get bored easily has increased over time to the point that it even affects things such as eating.

Oh, it's not good for you to go without food - think of your brain, it requires a lot of energy
A tendency to get bored very easily, is most often (not always of course) due to either understimulation or disturbances in the "arousal system" in the central nervous system, or a combination of both. (If it is only the latter, it's usually coupled with difficulties relaxing, concentration problems and restlessness.) Doing many things at the time in one way of getting stimulation, but often it's not enough because even if we do many different things, each thing might not require a lot of our skills, so the only thing we really use a lot here is our attention or concentration ability, not really our more abstract cognitive skills like problem solving, analysis, logics, memory skills etc. Perhaps you need more of an intellectual challenge, something that requires you many different cognitive skills?

However, there are other things(possibly/potentially good things) that go along with this 'getting-bored-easy' thing. Because I am bored so often, I spend a lot of time thinking about the two books I'm writing. I also spend time writing poetry when I'm bored, as well as contemplating theoretical possibilities and other things, which is how I've come to so many conclusions about so many things.

Certainly things with a very high potential of being good and constructive for you
When I was a teenager, I was also very easily bored and had difficulties of finding enough stimulation, especially intellectual stimulation. I used to write and read a lot, but I also found discussion with other people to be very rewarding and developing. I used to hang out with an older crowd, most of them were about 3-7 years older than me and many of them were interested in art, literature, philosophy, history, politics, religion and other topics that are well suited for discussion. It's very good to "try" ones ideas and conclusions on other people, IMO this is crucial since it allows us to get a distance and perspective on our own thinking. It doesn't really matter whether other people think we are wrong or right, in fact it doesn't matter a lot whether we actually are wrong or right, since it's very developing for our reasoning skills to constantly test them and get feedback from others. So I really hope you have some people around you who you can have good discussions with.


My outbursts of anger have been lessened some by discipline. I used to scream to release anger, but this just got me laughed at, which made me angrier. I've since replaced this with a glare, which allows me to keep an air(sp?) of calmness about myself and the ability to think somewhat rationally even when angry.

I certainly think your discussion skills here at SYM have improved
Such things as changing screaming to glaring because it workd better for both you and others, are called coping-strategies. Obviously you need to develop good coping strategies to handle your anger - there's nothing wrong with becoming angry, the problems can occur when we chose to express our feelings in ways that cause problems to ourselves and/or others. We might say things we don't mean, we might express ourselved so that other get a very bad impression of us and dislike us, and we might hurt or insult others unnecessarily.
If the glaring allows you to think better, and causes less problems with other people, that's a good strategy.

I am also a person who get angry easily (and immediatly), but it also disappears quickly. For me, it's always important to pinpoint what I'm angry for, and what I want to achive. Then I take it out verbally, and try to make sure I take it out on the right person, at the right time and in the right proportion.

Someone mentioned being suicidal as a pre-requisite of being insane. I was suicidal for a while a couple years ago(it reached it's worst between summer 2000 and early winter 2000).

It's very sad you were so depressed and had such low self-esteem at the time, but the fact that you managed to stay alive and then finding reasons to live when you met RS, shows that you have some inner strenght to rely on
I do not view suicidality as a sign of being insane (mentally ill), sometimes it is, sometimes not. Sometimes it is a healthy reaction to unacceptable life circumstances. You have to consider the whole picture, why is a person suicidal? When suicidality is part of a larger picture of disturbances, such as being very depressed without any special reason or overreacting largly to an event (ie my breakfast was late, that means nobody cares and I'm a worthless person so I should kill myself) then it should be viewed as a sign of psychiatric disorder, but when suicidality is a reaction to a objectively horrible life situation and major tragic events, it is not a sign of insanity, only a sign of unhappiness and that there are problems that need to be solved.

Originally posted by C Elegans
No, there are no particular things associated with high IQ apart from the ones we are discussing.

Good that your 1st grade teacher realised you needed more stimulation. What do you think about school now, are you satisfied with the assignements you get there, or would you like more of school related stimulation?

Actually, currently, I wish I didn't have to go to school, but its because of reasons other than lack of stimulation. I used to like school; but as I progressed through school, I began to not like it. There was some problem with other kids teasing me(mostly about my temper), but it was more the teachers and other school faculty that were the problem. I've lost count of how many times I've been punished by teachers/principles for something that I didn't do. It reached it's worse in 7th grade. I had been attacked by another student after school at a time when I couldn't even defend myself because I had a backpack full of books, my alto saxaphone(in its case), and my purse. If my then girlfriend hadn't been there to help me, I'd probably have ended up injured pretty badly. The next morning, me and that boy were called into the Principle's office because of the event of the day before. We were both given two days in OCS(On-Campus Suspension(sp?)) for fighting. I protested because I had not attacked him at all, never even had a chance to attack him. My then gf didn't even get spoken to and, technically, she had attacked him to get him off of me. Two days later, he was let out of OCS. For reasons that were never made very clear, I ended up being in OCS for about a week. Later in that semester(first semester), the Principal decided that any time I have a 'big problem' with another student(get provoked into losing my temper), I should go to OCS for the rest of that day in order to 'calm down,' despite the fact that I told him it wouldn't help me calm down to be punished when the other person wasn't getting punished. I never went back for second semester of 7th grade. I immediately started homeschooling(skipping to 8th grade because it's hard to start in the middle of a school year). And it was completely my decision because my parents asked me if I wanted to. My only reason for choosing to homeschool was the fact that I absolutely despised the disciplinary systems of public schools. Because of that, I'm still bitter against schools in general. One of the few things that angers me enough that I'm still holding a grudge(I rarely hold grudges, which is actually a 'benefit' of how suddenly my moods can change, especially from calm to angry to calm again).

As for the assignments, I hate homework. I’ve hated it since the 7th grade, well actually, since before that; but prior to 7th grade, I would get my homework done in class and not have any to do at home. Now, I have a tendency to not get my homework done because I generally consider it boring. Whether or not I get bored in class depends completely on whether or not the professor makes things interesting.

Oh, it's not good for you to go without food - think of your brain, it requires a lot of energy
A tendency to get bored very easily, is most often (not always of course) due to either understimulation or disturbances in the "arousal system" in the central nervous system, or a combination of both. (If it is only the latter, it's usually coupled with difficulties relaxing, concentration problems and restlessness.) Doing many things at the time in one way of getting stimulation, but often it's not enough because even if we do many different things, each thing might not require a lot of our skills, so the only thing we really use a lot here is our attention or concentration ability, not really our more abstract cognitive skills like problem solving, analysis, logics, memory skills etc. Perhaps you need more of an intellectual challenge, something that requires you many different cognitive skills?

Yeah, I know it’s not good to go without food. I just can’t get myself to eat ‘boring’ food.

I’m not sure if I have difficulty relaxing. My blood pressure says I don’t, but I’m not sure if I do or not. I do have trouble concentrating. When doing homework and such, I have to have music going or I my mind gets distracted by thinking of other things. The music keeps the wandering part of my mind distracted so that I can focus on my work. I also have trouble paying attention if I can’t keep part of my mind distracted by something else. I’ll often be doing something, but have no idea what I’m doing(yet it doesn’t affect what I’m doing) because I’m thinking about something else. I definitely tend to be restless. I cannot stay still or in one position for very long without having to move. If I don’t have anything to do, I’ll search for anything to do(this is also the only time when I’ll eat boring food merely because it’s doing something).

True, it doesn’t help much if the many things don’t require much. I have trouble, though, finding something to challenge me intellectually. I got bored with chess(couldn’t find anyone challenging enough). I can’t find puzzles that are really challenging to me, and even if I did, if I figure it out one time, I’ll have how to solve the puzzle memorized for eternity. RPGs can sometimes be good challenges, but with the computer trouble I’ve been having lately, I’m wary of playing CRPGs because I don’t want to have done a bunch of stuff then lose it because my computer froze/crashed.

Certainly things with a very high potential of being good and constructive for you
When I was a teenager, I was also very easily bored and had difficulties of finding enough stimulation, especially intellectual stimulation. I used to write and read a lot, but I also found discussion with other people to be very rewarding and developing. I used to hang out with an older crowd, most of them were about 3-7 years older than me and many of them were interested in art, literature, philosophy, history, politics, religion and other topics that are well suited for discussion. It's very good to "try" ones ideas and conclusions on other people, IMO this is crucial since it allows us to get a distance and perspective on our own thinking. It doesn't really matter whether other people think we are wrong or right, in fact it doesn't matter a lot whether we actually are wrong or right, since it's very developing for our reasoning skills to constantly test them and get feedback from others. So I really hope you have some people around you who you can have good discussions with.

Because of being an only child, I generally ended up spending most of my time hanging out with adults, specifically because I also tended to live in places where there weren’t many kids. Even though I’ve been able to have intelligent conversations with adults for much of my life, I often found the adults boring(and I still do) and they tended to patronize me, at best, anyway. It also tended to work out that most of the kids I would meet(excluding in school) were a few years younger than me. Younger kids may not provide a lot of intellectual stimulation, but I can find that in a book. They do, however, provide other stimulation, which I can’t find in books. But I still don’t get to spend much time with my friends(except online), so I still spend a lot of time bored.

I certainly think your discussion skills here at SYM have improved
Such things as changing screaming to glaring because it workd better for both you and others, are called coping-strategies. Obviously you need to develop good coping strategies to handle your anger - there's nothing wrong with becoming angry, the problems can occur when we chose to express our feelings in ways that cause problems to ourselves and/or others. We might say things we don't mean, we might express ourselved so that other get a very bad impression of us and dislike us, and we might hurt or insult others unnecessarily.
If the glaring allows you to think better, and causes less problems with other people, that's a good strategy.

Thank you for the comment on my discussion skills.

The glaring works better for my control, but I’m not so sure it works for others. I don’t get laughed at for glaring. Instead, I end up with the person being afraid of me, and I’m not sure if that really is better or not. I’ve even scared my parents with my glare. The problem is that I know of only three ways that allow me to effectively release my anger. Glaring, screaming, and hitting things. Screaming makes people laugh at me. Hitting things is painful. My glaring scares people. The glaring seems to be the least destructive, though.

I am also a person who get angry easily (and immediatly), but it also disappears quickly. For me, it's always important to pinpoint what I'm angry for, and what I want to achive. Then I take it out verbally, and try to make sure I take it out on the right person, at the right time and in the right proportion.

I wish I had that kind of control. I’ve been working on it for 11 years and have only improved a little… =\

Originally posted by C Elegans
It's very sad you were so depressed and had such low self-esteem at the time, but the fact that you managed to stay alive and then finding reasons to live when you met RS, shows that you have some inner strenght to rely on
I do not view suicidality as a sign of being insane (mentally ill), sometimes it is, sometimes not. Sometimes it is a healthy reaction to unacceptable life circumstances. You have to consider the whole picture, why is a person suicidal? When suicidality is part of a larger picture of disturbances, such as being very depressed without any special reason or overreacting largly to an event (ie my breakfast was late, that means nobody cares and I'm a worthless person so I should kill myself) then it should be viewed as a sign of psychiatric disorder, but when suicidality is a reaction to a objectively horrible life situation and major tragic events, it is not a sign of insanity, only a sign of unhappiness and that there are problems that need to be solved.

I’m not sure whether you would classify mine as a sign of insanity or not. I do not remember a whole lot of details as things from that time tend to be a bit blurred, except for the events that were part of meeting Random Shadow and my other online friends. I was depressed, for the most part, because my girlfriend(off and on 1st – 7th grades(off and on only because of me moving away then moving back repeatedly)), while we were 8th or 9th graders dumped me for some guy. For the first time in my life, I felt extremely lonely. I have a phobia of loneliness(not being alone, just of the feeling of loneliness), which only deepened my depression. It was a couple years after she dumped me, when we got together for lunch and she introduced me to her boyfriend, that I was really suicidal. I would lay for hours in my room doing absolutely nothing except listening to the first Britney Spears album. I didn’t drive much at that time, so the car-wreck method of suicide didn’t occur to me until I had gotten a job that I had to drive to and from 5 or 6 days a week. One other thing I recall from this time. Since 5th or 6th grade, I’d been building models. One time when during the time in which I was extremely depressed and suicidal, I used X-Acto Knife to try to slit my wrists. The only thing that stopped me here was my low tolerance for pain. I never managed to cut deep enough to draw blood because I kept imagining how much it would hurt.

Originally posted by C Elegans

I do not view suicidality as a sign of being insane (mentally ill), sometimes it is, sometimes not. Sometimes it is a healthy reaction to unacceptable life circumstances. You have to consider the whole picture, why is a person suicidal? When suicidality is part of a larger picture of disturbances, such as being very depressed without any special reason or overreacting largly to an event (ie my breakfast was late, that means nobody cares and I'm a worthless person so I should kill myself) then it should be viewed as a sign of psychiatric disorder, but when suicidality is a reaction to a objectively horrible life situation and major tragic events, it is not a sign of insanity, only a sign of unhappiness and that there are problems that need to be solved.

I think there's a confusion here between 3 things:
Suicidal Ideation - thinking about suicide. We all do it from time to time. Not usually adequate to judge someone to be mentally ill. Although, there are ways to measure the severity. For example, there's a big difference between thinking, "I want to die" and actually planning a strategy to kill yourself. Usually with the more severely clinically depressed, there is an actual plan on how they are going to commit suicide. Also the frequency and duration of suicidal ideation is a factor.
Suicidal Gesture--a non-serious attempt at suicide. For example, scratching your wrist with a knife.
Suicide Attempts--a serious attempt. For example, Sylvia Plath took an entire bottle of barbiturates and hid herself under a pile of stuff in her basement where she was very lucky to have been found by her brother. Hanging, gunshots, etc.
It's all a matter of degree. There are also differences in causes of depression--some depression is a normal reaction to traumatic events in the person's life. However, technically, they would still be found to be clinically depressed if it was severe enough.

One thing that I liked that the DSM IV did was to take into account the length of time of the symptoms. In the past, if you were diagnosed schizophrenic, you were stuck with that diagnosis for life (a stigmatizing label indeed). Now, they have 3 stages:
Brief Psychotic Disorder--psychotic symptoms for 30 days max. Some people have a psychotic reaction to trauma that is temporary and goes away relatively quickly.
Schizophreniform Disorder--ongoing psychotic symptoms for 30 days to 6 months. Some people have a psychotic break that lasts longer, but never have a psychotic break again.
Schizophrenia--ongoing psychotic symptoms--for over 6 months.

Originally posted by VoodooDali

Suicidal Ideation - thinking about suicide. We all do it from time to time. Not usually adequate to judge someone to be mentally ill. Although, there are ways to measure the severity. For example, there's a big difference between thinking, "I want to die" and actually planning a strategy to kill yourself. Usually with the more severely clinically depressed, there is an actual plan on how they are going to commit suicide. Also the frequency and duration of suicidal ideation is a factor.

Very true, i for instance wake up most mornings feeling like i am hungover, my back is aching my jaw hurts i have a splitting head ache etc etc etc, what rational person wouldn't contemplate suicide in that situation?

Originally posted by Mr Sleep


Very true, i for instance wake up most mornings feeling like i am hungover, my back is aching my jaw hurts i have a splitting head ache etc etc etc, what rational person wouldn't contemplate suicide in that situation?

Sleep, that sounds awful... Have you been tested for Sleep Apnea--you can have it without knowing it, and it is known for causing morning headaches.

Originally posted by VoodooDali


Sleep, that sounds awful... Have you been tested for Sleep Apnea--you can have it without knowing it, and it is known for causing morning headaches.

Thanks for the concern but i have winged about my condition before and i am resigned to feeling bad physically anyway , i might also have apnea it isn't something i have explored yet.

He just drinks too much.

[j/k I am aware of Mr Sleep's problem and suspected myself of having sleep apnea at one time]

Usally I wouldnt fill in so serious looking questioneries as this without someone familiar with the test to discuss my answers with, But since the attitude towards such things here in SYM seem rather relaxed I think I can make an exception.

So here I present a Personality disorder test for both sane and insane.

My results showed low probability on all disorders except Schizoid and Schizotypal wich was medium and high probability.

Schizoid
People with schizoid personality disorder avoid relationships and do not show much emotion. They genuinely prefer to be alone and do not secretly wish for popularity. They tend to seek jobs that require little social contact. Their social skills are often weak and they do not show a need for attention or acceptance. They are perceived as humorless and distant and often are termed "loners."

Schizotypal
Many believe that schizotypal personality disorder represents mild schizophrenia. The disorder is characterized by odd forms of thinking and perceiving, and individuals with this disorder often seek isolation from others. They sometimes believe to have extra sensory ability or that unrelated events relate to them in some important way. They generally engage in eccentric behavior and have difficulty concentrating for long periods of time. Their speech is often over elaborate and difficult to follow.

Originally posted by Dottie
Usally I wouldnt fill in so serious looking questioneries as this without someone familiar with the test to discuss my answers with, But since the attitude towards such things here in SYM seem rather relaxed I think I can make an exception.

So here I present a Personality disorder test for both sane and insane.

Don't worry Dottus, the test looks serious but it isn't really much more serious than the stud or nerd tests. Personality disorders is the 2nd of the 5 axis is DSM-IV, and personality disorders are clearly psychiatric disorders. For instance, the last borderline patient I met had thrown herself out from a window at the 4th floor, and she had more than 20 previous suicide attempts and countless self-injury incidents like cutting and burning herself. The last schizotypal patient I met had made his flat into a concrete bunker because he believed that would protect him from "evil radiation" sent out by political security organisations, and he also believed that planting a special type of tree would create world peace. He actually escaped from the clinic because he needed to plant a tree, and he had written several petitions to politicans regarding planting of those trees.

Personality disorders can be viewed as disorders where certain groups of personal characteristics are so extreme so they interfere severly with all major areas in life, such as studying, work, relationships, social life, etc. We all have some personality traits that are similar to milder forms of traits that are typical for one or several personality disorder, it's the degree that differs. The test has taken out mild versions of a few typical features of each personality disorder, so it's not a test of personality disorder, it's a test of which personality disorder you have most tendencies towards. Personality traits must be viewed in a continuum, a person might be very stubborn, very pedantic, have a high need for order and organisation and feel anxious if order is not upheld. This is personality trait, not necessarily a disorder. But if the person is so pedantic so s/he fail studies and jobs because s/he can't finish an assignment in time because most of time is devouted to small details, if the person have difficulties getting out from the house because things must always be done in a special order in a special way (like only walking in 90 degree angels, picking every dust particle from the socks before putting them on, etc) then we have to consider whether this person has an obsessive-compulsive disorder.

Anyway, taking the test with a handful of salt, I came out as moderate on antisocial, histrionic and narcissistic, low at everything else. This is not really correct, I know from uni (where we practised on each other) that I have mostly antisocial tendencies, which is the same as being a psychopath. Very flattering, but what does it is my bad impulse control and my (to be a psychologist) sometimes surprisingly bad empathy for others

Originally posted by C Elegans
Anyway, taking the test with a handful of salt, I came out as moderate on antisocial, histrionic and narcissistic, low at everything else. This is not really correct, I know from uni (where we practised on each other) that I have mostly antisocial tendencies, which is the same as being a psychopath. Very flattering, but what does it is my bad impulse control and my (to be a psychologist) sometimes surprisingly bad empathy for others

According to the test, here's my results.

Very High:
Schizotypal
Histrionic
Dependant

High:
Antisocial
Avoidant

Moderate:
Borderline
Narcissistic
Obsessive-Compulsive

Low:
Paranoid
Schizoid

Hmm...that's actually pretty accurate, except for part of their definition of Antisocial(unless you include the online RPGs I participate in ). As for Narcissistic, what do you expect when I've taken a test that told me I'm Legolas.

Hey CE
I took the test. Seems to be a bad version of the MMPI (which I did take years ago for fun). On the MMPI I scored high on the unconventional/anti-authority scale and was otherwise normal.

On this one I scored:
High
Schizoid
Narcissistic

Moderate
Paranoid
Schizotypal
Histrionic
Obsessive-Compulsive

Low
Antisocial
Borderline
Avoidant
Dependent

The opposite of my MMPI results!

CE--have you ever taken the newer version of the Rorschach? It was the most revealing test I ever took. One of the psychology PhD candidates administered it to me for practice. It was given in the usual way, I had to look at the blots and then he wrote down everything I said. But now there is a computerized part of it that he filled out that compares your answers to thousands of other people's answers. I was found in that one to have something in common with schizophrenics in my thinking--since I'm known to have a lot of loose associations when just rambling on--I'm just a very lateral thinker. That psychologist was really helpful to me--he taught me to explain to people how I got to the subject I was on so they wouldn't be going "Huh?" when I talked to them. Perhaps that explains why I was a good therapist with schizophrenics--I had no trouble following their train of thought. At the time, I was publishing a good bit of poetry, and I think that poets have a lot in common with the thought-disordered people.

This is what I scored on the test, in case anyone is interested, not surprising in my opinion fits the results of other tests which I have taken in the past except these were adminstered by pscyhologists and/or psychiatrists.

Paranoid:Very High
Schizoid: High
Schizotypal:Very High
Antisocial:Moderate
Borderline: Moderate
Histrionic:High
Narcisstic:Moderate
Avoidant:Very High
Dependent: High
Obsessive Compulsive: High

Well those are the results for my test, not very surprised as I said I have been tested before with other tests, basically the same results. I know I know the results of such tests are not very accurate, but as I said it basically fit with what stuff I had before.

Oh well, at least I know I am not alone in the craziness department, at least I am not boring and definitely have a very high IQ of course this is compensated somewhat by a innate problem of relating with others, Getting therapy for it and some drugs which are helping with social problems, my family has historically been quite reticent with drugs, feel it saps their creativity, no side effects so far.

Peace and Chaos to you all.

In my mind Chaos is a good thing.