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I totally agree that animals need to have a good life before they are eaten. Hunting wild game however is wrong since this is not necessary for the food. This is only acceptible if there are too many of one kind of animal.

Well, I agree that it is senseless to hunt wild game for the purpose of taking a trophy, but I do like deer venison, and I have yet to see that in a store. So I don't see the wrong in hunting for the meat.

Just me though.

Originally posted by Nippy
If we talk about animals eating us (RE: Grunty), what about animals eating animals? Whats the difference between a wild dog hunting for a rabbit and a man hunting a cow or something?

If you can figure out a solution to how we might stop animals from hunting each other without hurting anything, then by all means go ahead. If not then we just have to be satisfied with our own meat embargo untill further technology and animal feeding methods are available.

And you cant seriously demand that the wild dog stops hunting the rabbit by its own, since its obviously not able to.

Originally posted by Dottie


If you can figure out a solution to how we might stop animals from hunting each other without hurting anything, then by all means go ahead. If not then we just have to be satisfied with our own meat embargo untill further technology and animal feeding methods are available.

And you cant seriously demand that the wild dog stops hunting the rabbit by its own, since its obviously not able to.

I think you misunderstand me, I agree completely with eating meat and I think hunting and ontaining meat is a completely natural thing.

No, i think I understood you correctly. What I meant were that WE have the option to stop eating meat, animals have not. therefor we should stop eating animals and what the animals do arent realy relevant until we have power to prevent it in a moraly acceptable way.

I just prefer to eat stupid animals. Chickens for example. Bunnies, hee hee. For this reason, I do not eat calimari, since squid are actually very intelligent, with the largest brains of all the invertebrates. To me, it's akin to eating a parrot.

I think the problem is in trying to put a moral stance on a system that was not originally based on morallity.

Humans, like any other natural wild animal that eats meat, has been hunting and killing for food since the beginning. The only differenace is, now humans have evolved to a level of moral awareness that leads them to question this system. From my own point of view, I don't see it as wrong or right. I see it as a natural cycle.

That said, I also understand that some peoples views will differ from my own.

Originally posted by Rob-hin

@dragon wench,
I totally agree that animals need to have a good life before they are eaten. Hunting wild game however is wrong since this is not necessary for the food. This is only acceptible if there are too many of one kind of animal.


*Gone too eat his fries with a hamburger*

So you are saying that it is more ethical to eat a meat from a domestically raised animal (that has likely been factory farmed...with all the attendant cruelty) than it is to eat venison...which comes from a deer, that until the point of its death has lived a free and natural life??????

I honestly don't mean this as a personal attack...and maybe factory farming is less prevalent in the Netherlands.......but to my mind it is far kinder to eat an animal that has led a natural life than one that has been horrendously treated throughout the entire period of its existence....

Happy little piggies

I eat meat, and though I deplore any cruelty to animals, I think some people go too far. I just pulled this off a website today:

"Germany has begun to phase in European Union guidelines regarding the care of pigs. Henceforth and forthwith, pig farmers must visit all pigs at least 20 seconds each day, spending both morning and evening "quality time" with them, provide toys so that the pigs do not fight and extra winter lighting to keep them from becoming depressed. Pig pens must be air-conditioned, and special hospital facilities must be set up so that sick pigs can "recover in peace."

German agriculture authorities will conduct surprise inspections to ensure compliance. You vill talk to your pigs, yes?"

I can't confirm the veracity of these guidelines, but it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they are true. What a world we live in!

Strange DM, my mother always told me not to play with my food.

I eat meat. I have a leather jacket. I have leather shoes. I also use medicines and medical techniques that have been tested on animals. I even work in a field where animal research has been used extensively, in the most cruel way (especially in the 1950's and 60's when there was no regulations of what was allowed to do.)

My justification for eating meat is simply that man is an omnivore - although an adult can survive just fine without animal proteins and animal fat, our childhood development still requires a nutrition that is very difficult if not impossible to make without animal proteins. In Sweden, there was a case of two parents who were vegans and fed their child accordingly. The child was badly malnourished and got severe and irrepairable brain damage due to the diet. I don't think it's more morally wrong that a human eats a cow than if a wolf does it.

However, I agree a lot with Dragon Wench, eating meat is totally different from being allowed to perform cruelty to other animals.
Like DW and Dottie points out, most of the animal farming, not to mention the transportation conditions, are cruel and IMO not morally defenseble. But, at least in Europe, alternative farming is growing bigger because the consumers demand it. Freely walking chickens and pigs etc are becoming more and more common. Regulations for how large areas are required for each animals, have become much stricter during the 1990's.

Originally posted by Tom
Do you like to eat it? I guess you think its ok then. But can you justify it? What makes it right to lock up innocent creatures and then kill them?

Yeah - I like meat.... and I'm sure if the cows ever got the chance - they would make steaks and burgers out of us (we have had experince with cow in here in SYM before )

Seriously though - I don't see why mankind shouldn't eat meat, we are an animal, and animals eat animals. (Foodchain and such)

Wouldn't it, if it is morally wrong for humans to eat meat, be morally wrong for any creature to prey/eat another animal??? - this is the way nature works.

I dont think its possible to moraly justify an action by observing that the action is performed by someone else, especially if this someone else is an animal.

@CE: I dont know if its possible with a vegan diet but surely it must be possible to feed a child with a vegetarian one? Ofcourse when we change to vegetarian diet we must change most of our food habits aswell, since meat is such a good source of nourishment.

I reckon there's nothing wrong with eating meat. I like it and I think it's important for your diet. After all, we were designed to eat it but it does put me off when I think of what it took for it to be put on my dinner plate.

Man is meant to be an omnivore.

Personally, I think that it is funny to put man's inherent trait of being an omnivore right beside a moral ruler/weighing scale specially if the meat being talked about is one that comes from non-human animals.

I eat meat because I must. Of course, liking it is not a far second, but definitely liking it is not a must. Try eating cafeteria food, they got meat there but do they taste good? Not always, but hey, I must eat.

Just what some of you have stated, the MANNER in which the meat was processed, ready to be served in our dinnerplates, would probably be the point of question here.

But the main reason not to eat meat and opting to be a vegan (with no health reasons involved), is to me, a political statement of choice.

Originally posted by Dottie
@CE: I dont know if its possible with a vegan diet but surely it must be possible to feed a child with a vegetarian one? Ofcourse when we change to vegetarian diet we must change most of our food habits aswell, since meat is such a good source of nourishment.

I think it's possible but it would require very informed parents who are educated in nutrition. If you nurse the child it's much easier, since human milk is an excellent source of animal proteins and animal fat. If you can't nurse the child, you have to use special soymilk, often with lots of additives in. Soymilk can also be allergenic, unfortnunately.

A lactovegetarian diet would be much easier than a pure vegan diet, I think. But then you have the same problem with egg and dairy products - they have to come from somewhere, and the animals farmed for milk and egg are not having a better time than the ones farmed for meat. So if one would like to make a political statement, the pure vegan way is probably the only way to go, and then parents will face severe difficulties, although not impossible to overcome.

But truly, I have never really understood why it is supposed to be more morally correct to eat plants than other living beings. We know virtually nothing about plants - do they perceive pain, do they have some kind of consciousness? Plants are equally important, if not more important, to life on earth than any animals. Our large agricultural plantations affect the ecosystem of our earth probably more than the farming of animals - think of the huge areas used for agriculture, how rainforests have been cut down and many species extinct, the heavy use of pesticides etc - I'm not sure global vegetarianism/veganism is better.

Originally posted by Dottie
@Rob-hin: Here i like to quote Sleeps old sig. If i remember correctly it was: What we call human nature is actually human habbit.

Please correct me if im wrong Sleep.

That is it

The ethical vegitarian weighs in

Originally posted by C Elegans
<SNIP>A lactovegetarian diet would be much easier than a pure vegan diet, I think. But then you have the same problem with egg and dairy products - they have to come from somewhere, and the animals farmed for milk and egg are not having a better time than the ones farmed for meat. So if one would like to make a political statement, the pure vegan way is probably the only way to go.<SNIP>
Our large agricultural plantations affect the ecosystem of our earth probably more than the farming of animals - think of the huge areas used for agriculture, how rainforests have been cut down and many species extinct, the heavy use of pesticides etc - I'm not sure global vegetarianism/veganism is better.

I don't personally know any vegan parents but I have pleanty of contact with parents and children who are vegetarians. I would submit that most are in better health and are more aware of nutritional issues than the general population. As to developmental deficiencies I think the case you report is far from the norm.

I am a vegetarian because:

Meat is bad for you. Especially modern hormone and Genetically Modified Foodlot feed.

Meat is bad for the environment. In C Elegan's last para she claims the opposite. This is not true. Per calorie it takes around ten times the arable land to produce meat than it does to produce vegetable. The rainforests in South America are primarily being cleared to allow for beef farming.

Less importantly. We are (probably) the only animals who have the ability to choose whether we kill for food and/or treat 'lesser' animals with compassion. To make a choice other than for NOT KILL, NOT CRUEL seems wrong to me, especially when the two most obvious reasons (To NOT KILL) are quite unrelated.

Hate me, flame me, quote the bible at me... - Curdis !

well, knowing several friends that were raised as vegetarians, i feel i can submit an opinion on the parental part of this. every, and i mean EVERY one of my male friends who was raised as a vegetarian is practically nonpubescent. they never had the right fats in their diet to develop testosterone which needs cholesterol in order to be formed. every one of them is extremely unhealthy looking, boney, bird chested, hairless freaks. and this is probably about 7 guys of varying ethnicity.

the average heighth of a japanese male has gone up somethign like 6 inches sinces WWII, most people speculate it is due to the introduction of a more western diet invloving beef, and fried foods.

as far as the plant argument goes...anyoen here know what jainism is? it is a particular form of hinduism, they do not eat any meat and no part of a plant that will kill it, such as a root or stalk. one of my friends is a jainist, and he is the ONLY vegetarian i have respect for. the only thing worst than a vegetarian is a vegan.

and in closing...i would have no problem eating human flesh either.

Originally posted by dragon wench



So you are saying that it is more ethical to eat a meat from a domestically raised animal (that has likely been factory farmed...with all the attendant cruelty) than it is to eat venison...which comes from a deer, that until the point of its death has lived a free and natural life??????

I honestly don't mean this as a personal attack...and maybe factory farming is less prevalent in the Netherlands.......but to my mind it is far kinder to eat an animal that has led a natural life than one that has been horrendously treated throughout the entire period of its existence....

It's just not possible to hunt for food, there is no way on earth to hunt enough animals to meet the demand of meat.

The only solution is to breed animals just for their meat. But how this is done, CAN be affected! Good food so they grow fast (no hormones!), a nice environmet for them to live.

To make this possible the governmet needs to set up the right laws, and a a way to check the farmholders if they follow the rules.


Killing animals for sport though is IMO just wrong. There is no need for those animals to be killed by some guy just so he feels manly. Just leave nature in peace...
The only time when there can be "hunted" is when balance is disturbed, when there are to many animals of one breed.

Originally posted by Rob-hin


It's just not possible to hunt for food, there is no way on earth to hunt enough animals to meet the demand of meat.

The only solution is to breed animals just for their meat. But how this is done, CAN be affected! Good food so they grow fast (no hormones!), a nice environmet for them to live.

To make this possible the governmet needs to set up the right laws, and a a way to check the farmholders if they follow the rules.


Killing animals for sport though is IMO just wrong. There is no need for those animals to be killed by some guy just so he feels manly. Just leave nature in peace...
The only time when there can be "hunted" is when balance is disturbed, when there are to many animals of one breed.

I am not suggesting that we rely solely on hunting to obtain protein....clearly that is impractical. However, I would like to point out that in North America (unlike Holland), deer, for example, are extremely common. Moreover, some people who live in remote wilderness areas actually depend on it for survival....

I do agree that there are far too many hunters who perceive that killing relatively defenseless creatures somehow increases their masculinity (though there are women who hunt....).....and I find this attitude quite nauseating..... Nonetheless, this is a
stereotype, so one should be careful about passing too rapid a judgement...

I also agree that animals should be raised in a free range type of environment, in which they are given natural food (ideally, organically grown...). Not only is this more ethical where the animals are concerned, but it also produces meat that both tastes better and is healthier to eat.

Finally......another problem is that many people believe that one must eat meat in order to live. This is not true. While there are certainly those following a meatless diet that lacks essential nutrients (vitamin B 12 as an example), it is entirely possible to enjoy a healthy existence without consuming animal products, it is a question of being informed....knowing which combination of ingredients will produce the appropriate levels of protein and amino acids etc. This is especially true for vegans (those who do not eat any animal derived protein at all).

It takes a lot of land to produce the grain required for one steak......grain that could feed many people.......
.....I am not necessarily advocating a vegetarian diet, but I am saying that moderation in its consumption would, among other benefits, be helpful in reducing world hunger.