GameBanshee Forums

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
<STRONG>Go into the Device Manager on My Computer and delete both drives. Then reboot your machine. The Add New Hardware Wizard will run because the computer will think that you've just added two new optical drives and it will reinstall your drivers.</STRONG>

I tried deleting the CD-ROM then restarting a while back, but when I restarted, it was as if I hadn't deleted it. I'll probably give that a try with both of them in a bit. One problem is that I'm using Win98 first edition and I just got back on this comp today after fixing a problem where Windows couldn't read my C Drive. (The DVD-ROM not reading CDs problem started and reached the point it is at before the Windows problem. The Win98 problem happened when I was turning my computer on after attempting a "disconnect and reconnect of the drives" to see if that would fix it, since it has worked before when my Comp wouldn't detect the DVD-ROM.) I've been planning on upgrading to Win98SE, but I can't do that without a working CD-ROM/DVD-ROM drive.

<STRONG>If I were you, I wouldn't mess with their designations; just leave them as whatever Windows assigns to them.</STRONG>

I know better how to correctly change drive designation numbers than editing whatever files I would need to edit to make BG2 look to a different drive.

<STRONG>If reinstalling the drivers doesn't work, the drives themselves may be shot (probable culprits are the motors or the laser). In that event, see if they're under warranty and if they are, get them replaced by the manufacturer. If they are no longer under warranty, you'll have to buy new drives. The good news is that you can get 52X-56X CD-ROM drives for less than $40 at retail stores, and 8X-12X DVD-ROM drives are less than $80 or so (retail).</STRONG>

The CD-ROM, like my computer, is about 3-years-old, but I just got the DVD-ROM a few months ago. Don't know a thing about the warranties...

<STRONG>Instead of getting a new $40 CD-ROM, I'd spring for the extra $40 and get a 12x8x40x CD-RW for $80 or so. Convince your folks that you're getting a good deal and/or that you need one and see if they spring for the dough (add in that if you get a CD burner he can make all of the James Taylor and Garth Brooks CDs that he wants). If that doesn't work, sell plasma or hoc one of your little sibling's kidneys.</STRONG>

My dad's already got a CD burner and DVD-ROM(though his is only an 8x, mine is a 12x) on his computer. (BTW, who's James Taylor?) I've got a good deal of money for expenses having to do with school, which I've been using for comp upgrades. Last semester, I used it to get my DVD-ROM. However, I've got to have some work done on my car, so I really can't afford to buy new CD/CDRW/DVD drives. And I don't have any siblings.

Originally posted by Waverly:
<STRONG>I can’t be bothered to wade through this thread, Miss Saturn.

If it has not been suggested yet: When you installed BGII it made note of which drive to check for disk 2. This may be the problem. Buck would take a dim view of me pointing you towards it, but as a rightful owner of the game, I personally don’t see a problem with you finding a no-CD patch. If you do so, be careful to back up the affected files first just in case.</STRONG>

The only problem with this suggestion, really, is that BG2 isn't the only program I need a CD to run.

@Ned:
I'd go with the kidneys because God gave them two. Besides, I hear they're paying $500-700 a piece on the black market in India.

@Sailor Saturn:
I can't believe you don't know James Taylor; maybe I'm just getting old. Fire and Rain, Carolina in My Mind, Steamroller . . . classics.

At dinner, I was thinking about your problem(s) and it is odd that two drives in your computer would fail at about the same time. Unless they're made in a sweatshop in Mexico or Bangladesh, computer components don't usually fail except for extreme failure (like your CD motors burning up or your hard drive platters flying off the spindles) and even then, the likelihood of two drives failing together is extremely low.

Most name brand components, and those name brand components which they rebadge and repackage as generic or bargain components, are made in "clean" environments and you can usually expect a good five years of operational life out of them before they physically fail. That being the case, maybe you should try something else.

Since you have more than one computer in your house, this is what I would do:

Take the CD-ROM and DVD-ROM out of your computer. Put them in another computer that is not having any problems with its optical drives. If they work in that computer, the drives are okay and you have other issues. If they both do not work, then they're gone and you need to replace them.

While the other computer's drives are out, put them in your machine. If they work in your machine, then it's the drives. If they do not work, it's something else in your computer.

Try both steps with both computers to be extra sure.

If it is not your drives that are bad, there are several other possibilities which could be responsible for your problems. First, your cables could be defective or not seated correctly. Second, your IDE controllers could be fried. Third, you could be having some problem that is related to your OS or drivers.

Start with the simplest and least expensive solutions. Check to see that your IDE cables do not have any rips or tears. Then make sure they are seated both in the drive and on the motherboard.

Second, reinstall the drivers. Again.

Third, using a Windows boot disk, reinstall Windows. If you have a software or OS problem, you should be able to boot to a floppy disk, load the CD-ROM drivers and reinstall Windows. If you have a hardware problem, you will not be able to use MS-DOS to get to the CD-ROM.

If you have a hardware problem that is not related to your optical drives, the prime culprit may be the IDE controllers on your motherboard. You can get an ATA-100 IDE controller expansion card for about $40 or so from most computer shops and just need a free PCI expansion slot. If you're in the mood to upgrade the whole thing, you can get a good ATX motherboard and P3 CPU bundle for about $200-250 over the internet.

If you suspect your IDE controllers or motherboard, I would take it to a CompTIA A+ Certified technician instead of relying on the GameBanshee Idiot Tech Support Group, because they can touch and see your machine whereas all we can do is sit around and supply a lot of conjecture about what might be wrong with it. CompUSA employs A+ techs as do a lot of the other larger chains and local computer stores.

Some other advice, to reiterate what our friend Ned Flanders said: you should avoid manually setting the drive designations in your computer; it's often not a good idea. Since you've already done that, I'd try to undo it and leave it to the computer in the future.

[ 01-16-2002: Message edited by: HighLordDave ]

Did you try a cd-lens cleaner yet? (a cd with hair on it)
If you don't have one try blowing in the open cd tray. ( gotta try something right? )

I'd run a virus scan first. You never know.

Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
<STRONG>I'd run a virus scan first. You never know.</STRONG>

That's good. I hadn't even thought of a virus.

Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
<STRONG>I'd run a virus scan first. You never know.</STRONG>

The anti-virus program I've got is as old as the computer.

I don't think the problem is a virus. I think the problem is this computer is just getting too old and needs to be replaced. In the past several months, I've added a DVD-ROM, 64MB video card, upgraded to 256MB RAM, installed a new sound card, and added a 40GB hard drive. Before upgrading, I had a 4MB video card, 96MB RAM, and just an 8GB hard drive.

What I'm planning on doing is getting an inexpensive computer who's best feature is a fast processor, and maybe a CD-RW, then taking all the upgrades I bought and puting them on it. Hopefully, that'll fix all the problems I've been having; though, I know it will, of course, bring in its own problems, but at least it'll be something different. I just hope I can get one with Win98SE instead of WinXP. *shudders at the thought of having a computer that has WinXP*

You're better off just building one from scratch. Do you have a proprietary (ie-name brand) chasis? If you do, just go out and pick up an ATX mid-tower case (about $40), a P3 or Athlon CPU and motherboard bundle ($200-250 or so) and put all the stuff you have in it. If you have an ATX case, just rip the guts out of your computer and put it in the new one.

You should also go out an pick up a Windows 98SE disk either over the internet or from a friend, because most manufacturers are shipping computers with Windows XP or Windows 2000 and not giving you the option of one of the old Windows 9x operating systems.

Even if you do all of this, you might still have problems with your drives if you have a corrupt OS or drivers. If it's a bad IDE controller, a new motherboard will solve that in a flash.

Try what I suggested above (check the cables, reinstall the drivers, reinstall Windows, etc.). You should also go to your CD-ROM and DVD-ROM manufacturer's webpage and download the latest drivers to make sure they're up to date. That will at least let you start checking things off your list of things that may or may not be wrong with your computer.

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
<STRONG>You're better off just building one from scratch. Do you have a proprietary (ie-name brand) chasis? If you do, just go out and pick up an ATX mid-tower case (about $40), a P3 or Athlon CPU and motherboard bundle ($200-250 or so) and put all the stuff you have in it. If you have an ATX case, just rip the guts out of your computer and put it in the new one.</STRONG>

I've seen comps with P3 processors, 32MB RAM, and 20GB hard drives for around $200-$250. I'm going to see if I can find'em again. I can also send any of the extra hardware that I don't need to my friend so she can upgrade her comp some.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "proprietary (ie-name brand) chasis." The computer is a Pionex, which is supposedly made by IBM; but that's about all I know for sure. I also don't know what you mean by "ATX case."

<STRONG>You should also go out an pick up a Windows 98SE disk either over the internet or from a friend, because most manufacturers are shipping computers with Windows XP or Windows 2000 and not giving you the option of one of the old Windows 9x operating systems.</STRONG>

I'll probably end up doing that, but I'm going to make sure whether or not I can get a comp that has Win98SE. If I have a comp ordered to my specifications, I'd probably have a better chance of getting it with Win98SE.

<STRONG>Even if you do all of this, you might still have problems with your drives if you have a corrupt OS or drivers. If it's a bad IDE controller, a new motherboard will solve that in a flash.

Try what I suggested above (check the cables, reinstall the drivers, reinstall Windows, etc.). You should also go to your CD-ROM and DVD-ROM manufacturer's webpage and download the latest drivers to make sure they're up to date. That will at least let you start checking things off your list of things that may or may not be wrong with your computer.</STRONG>

I'm going to; I just have to find the time. Because classes resumed on Monday, I haven't had much time to do much of anything. Hopefully, I'll have more time this weekend...

Proprietary components are pieces that a manufacturer uses so that you can't use other people's stuff in their machine, and you can't take their stuff and put it in someone else's computer

Most of the major name brand computer manufacturers (Dell, Gateway, HP, NEC, etc.) use a case and motherboard that will only accomodate their own custom-built components. You cannot for instance, take the motherboard out of a Dell Optiplex and put it in a Gateway 700-series or HP Pavilion. Compaq went so far as to change the memory chip slots so that they would only accept memory that you bought from Compaq.

There are a number of different form factors out there, but the dominant one is currently the ATX. It is a set of industry-standard guidelines that aftermarket and independent manufacturers use so that computer components will fit universally. For a case to meet the ATX form factor (as opposed to the AT, mini-ATX, NLX or other form factor), it must have certain dimensions, with attachment points for screws, mounting brackets and power supplies in the same place.

Motherboard manufacturers (Soyo, Epox, ECS, etc.) build their motherboards to these standard specifications so that I could take the Soyo motherboard out of my computer, put in an Epox board, and not have any compatibility issues with the motherboard physically fitting in my case. The ATX form factor also covers things like having standard power supply connectors and common locations for the the PS/2, USB, parallel, serial and other ports in relation to the case.

The idea is interchangeability regardless of brand, so the closest analogy would be a car chasis that has a standard set of engine mounts in it so that you could take a Ford 351 V-8 out of your car, then drop a Chevy 305 small block or Subaru 2.2L flat-four in. Big computer companies (Dell et al) don't want you to be able to use other people's stuff in their machines, just as GM doesn't want you shopping with anyone but them, so they use proprietary components and when you computer breaks, they will try to sell you a new one instead of giving you the capability of upgrading what you have.

I know a couple of people with Pionex computers, but I've never opened one up. However, if you check your documentation, it should tell you if you have a proprietary or industry-standard case. Even so, cases and power supplies are cheap, as are the other things. If you have a bunch of new components, you should seriously think about gutting your existing machine and rebuilding it from scratch.

Of course, the down side of this is that if your home-built computer breaks, the only tech support you can call is, well, you.

@HLD Well, since my dad's willing(more like, insistant!) to buy the comp for me, I'm not as worried about price now.

*sigh* I tried uninstalling the DVD-ROM and CD-ROM drives, but when I restarted, the computer didn't detect new hardware. It just acted like they hadn't been uninstalled. In fact, they're still installed. Anyone know why it's doing this?

It could be because you have either a bad IDE controller or a bad IDE cable. Check to make sure that the cables are seated securely in the drives and on the motherboard. Also make sure that the jumpers on one drive are set to "Master" and the other is set to "Slave".

I take it the computer will still boot to the hard drive? That means that at least one of you IDE channels is good. When you re-seat the cables, change the cables on the motherboard so that the hard drive cable is seated where the optical drives were and vice-versa. If the hard drive still boots, then the cable is okay and the IDE controller is fine too. That would lead me to believe that there is a problem with the drives, not the motherboard.

If you switch the connections on the motherboard and the hard drive does not boot, then you have either a bad cable (they cost about $10 at Circuit City of CompUSA) or a bad IDE controller. In that case, you will either need to get a new motherboard or IDE controller expansion card.

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
<STRONG>It could be because you have either a bad IDE controller or a bad IDE cable. Check to make sure that the cables are seated securely in the drives and on the motherboard. Also make sure that the jumpers on one drive are set to "Master" and the other is set to "Slave".</STRONG>

Could you explain this in more detail, please?

<STRONG>I take it the computer will still boot to the hard drive? That means that at least one of you IDE channels is good. When you re-seat the cables, change the cables on the motherboard so that the hard drive cable is seated where the optical drives were and vice-versa. If the hard drive still boots, then the cable is okay and the IDE controller is fine too. That would lead me to believe that there is a problem with the drives, not the motherboard.

If you switch the connections on the motherboard and the hard drive does not boot, then you have either a bad cable (they cost about $10 at Circuit City of CompUSA) or a bad IDE controller. In that case, you will either need to get a new motherboard or IDE controller expansion card.</STRONG>

I am replacing the motherboard. My dad ordered me a new computer(case, motherboard, processor, and 128MB RAM) and it should be arriving sometime within this next week. Once I add in what I've got already, I'll have a computer with a P4 1.5Ghz processor, 384MB RAM, 40GB hard drive, and 64MB video card. I just hope I'm able to get the DVD-ROM to work.

Originally posted by Shadow Sandrock:
<STRONG>Did we ask you to spam her thread when she's asking for help?

@Sailor: Oh boy, that is never good... maybe try putting in several different kinds of discs, see what'll get read and what won't (i.e. programs, a CD-R, a music CD...)</STRONG>

jeez Loius, i am guessing that you Sailor's real life friend?

Originally posted by Sailor Saturn:
<STRONG>I'll have a computer with a P4 1.5Ghz processor, 384MB RAM, 40GB hard drive, and 64MB video card.</STRONG>

You do realise that you will not be able to use the memory that is in your current machine in your new machine, right? (I am assuming that you have an Intel P2 or AMD K6-2 based system; you did say it was three years old or so). The Pentium and K6 processors use the standard PC100/133 DIMM (Dual Inline Memory Module). The P4 uses RDRAM mounted on a RIMM (Rambus Inline Memory Module). The two are not compatible. However, the RIMM chip is much more efficient and runs at a higher clock speed, so having "only" 128 MB of RDRAM is preferable to having 256 MB of PC133 SDRAM. You should be able to strip everything else out of your old computer and use it in the new one.

<STRONG>

Could you explain this in more detail, please? </STRONG>

I am going to assume that you want to know more about the IDE Master and IDE Slave functions. This is the long version, so forgive me for not being brief.

When your computer boots, the BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) is going to load from the motherboard and look for an operating system to boot. In most cases, the first place it looks is the floppy disk drive (FDD), then to the hard disk drive (HDD) and then the optical disk drive (ODD; your CD/DVD-ROM). Some BIOS will also look to boot from a SCSI (Small Computer Systems Interface; pronounced "scuzzy") drive. You probably don't have (and don't need) SCSI, so we won't worry about that.

The FDD, HDD and ODD are all connected to your motherboard by cables. On your motherboard you will see three connectors for these drives. The leads on the back of a FDD will only connect to a FDD cable which will only attach to the FDD controller on your motherboard.

Most HDDs and ODDs connect to the motherboard with IDE (Integrated Drive Electronics) cables. IDE cables have three connectors; one seats on the motherboard and the other two can be attached to one device each. Your motherboard probably has two IDE channels so it can suppport a total of four IDE devices.

There are three basic standards for data throughput over an IDE channel: ATA-100, ATA-66 and ATA-33. Most new HDDs operate at the ATA-100 standard, while most ODDs operate at the ATA-33 speed (optical drives don't read as fast as magnetic drives). When placing drives on an IDE channel, you should never mix devices with different throughput. That is, put your ODDs on one channel and your HDDs on another. If you put an ATA-100 HDD on the same IDE channel as an ATA-33 CD-RW, data will move through the channel at the slower speed. Likewise, if you have an ATA-100 HDD and an ATA-66 HDD, you should not have them both in your computer on the same IDE channel. There is a noticable performance hit if you do.

When you put more than one IDE device on the same channel, one is always the Master and the other is the Slave (If Aegis has made it this far through the post, he may have confused it with an S&M reference and is probably salivating right about now; if he hasn't, don't tell our Canadian friend that I just took a shot at him). When the BIOS load, it is going to look to boot first from the Master drive, and if it can't find an operating system there, it will go to the Slave and look for an OS. This applies to both HDDs and ODDs (some CDs are bootable such as the standard Windows 98SE disk).

If you look on the back of an IDE drive, you will see three things: the power connector, the IDE cable connector and a place where you set a jumper to determine the drive's role in your computer's operation. There are three basic jumper settings: Master, Slave and Cable Select.

If you look at the documentation that came with your HDD and ODDs, it will tell you how to set the jumpers on the drive. If you've lost that paperwork, go to the drive's manufacturer's webpage, click on "Support" and find a link to the documentation.

I prefer to set my drives manually with the jumpers, but you can buy IDE cables that will do it for you. If you have a Cable Select cable, one end will seat on the motherboard, the connector in the middle is the Slave and the connector on the other end is the Master. They're usually labled with pull tabs so you don't seat the Master connector on the motherboard.

Once you have all of this stuff set up in your case, go into the "Setup" in your BIOS the first time your computer boots and make sure that all of your settings are okay. You want to make sure that the HDD that is going to boot is the Master drive on one of your IDE channels and that the computer will look to boot from the HDD before it goes to the ODDs. You also generally want to set the Master ODD as the one with the faster read speed, but setting the ODD Master/Slave is less important than for the HDD. However, you need to make sure that each channel has a Master and a Slave; you computer will not function if they are not accounted for (or so I'm told; I've never tried).

That's the roundabout explanation of IDE Masters and Slaves. There will be a quiz next time. Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but football was on today.

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
<STRONG>You do realise that you will not be able to use the memory that is in your current machine in your new machine, right? (I am assuming that you have an Intel P2 or AMD K6-2 based system; you did say it was three years old or so). The Pentium and K6 processors use the standard PC100/133 DIMM (Dual Inline Memory Module). The P4 uses RDRAM mounted on a RIMM (Rambus Inline Memory Module). The two are not compatible. However, the RIMM chip is much more efficient and runs at a higher clock speed, so having "only" 128 MB of RDRAM is preferable to having 256 MB of PC133 SDRAM. You should be able to strip everything else out of your old computer and use it in the new one.</STRONG>

I'm going to reply to this first, then read the rest of the post. This way I don't forget what I want to say here.

I looked at the specifications when my dad was looking at computers online. Remembering how dad had to order RAM from Gateway that was compatible with his computer, I checked what type of RAM the comps we were looking at had and compared it to the RAM that we bought at Sam's(128MB chips, which are currently in the computer I've got) and kept looking until we found one that matched and that's what we ordered.

Originally posted by HighLordDave:
<STRONG>I am going to assume that you want to know more about the IDE Master and IDE Slave functions. This is the long version, so forgive me for not being brief.

When your computer boots, the BIOS (Basic Input/Output System) is going to load from the motherboard and look for an operating system to boot. In most cases, the first place it looks is the floppy disk drive (FDD), then to the hard disk drive (HDD) and then the optical disk drive (ODD; your CD/DVD-ROM). Some BIOS will also look to boot from a SCSI (Small Computer Systems Interface; pronounced "scuzzy") drive. You probably don't have (and don't need) SCSI, so we won't worry about that.

The FDD, HDD and ODD are all connected to your motherboard by cables. On your motherboard you will see three connectors for these drives. The leads on the back of a FDD will only connect to a FDD cable which will only attach to the FDD controller on your motherboard.

Most HDDs and ODDs connect to the motherboard with IDE (Integrated Drive Electronics) cables. IDE cables have three connectors; one seats on the motherboard and the other two can be attached to one device each. Your motherboard probably has two IDE channels so it can suppport a total of four IDE devices.

There are three basic standards for data throughput over an IDE channel: ATA-100, ATA-66 and ATA-33. Most new HDDs operate at the ATA-100 standard, while most ODDs operate at the ATA-33 speed (optical drives don't read as fast as magnetic drives). When placing drives on an IDE channel, you should never mix devices with different throughput. That is, put your ODDs on one channel and your HDDs on another. If you put an ATA-100 HDD on the same IDE channel as an ATA-33 CD-RW, data will move through the channel at the slower speed. Likewise, if you have an ATA-100 HDD and an ATA-66 HDD, you should not have them both in your computer on the same IDE channel. There is a noticable performance hit if you do.

When you put more than one IDE device on the same channel, one is always the Master and the other is the Slave (If Aegis has made it this far through the post, he may have confused it with an S&M reference and is probably salivating right about now; if he hasn't, don't tell our Canadian friend that I just took a shot at him). When the BIOS load, it is going to look to boot first from the Master drive, and if it can't find an operating system there, it will go to the Slave and look for an OS. This applies to both HDDs and ODDs (some CDs are bootable such as the standard Windows 98SE disk).

If you look on the back of an IDE drive, you will see three things: the power connector, the IDE cable connector and a place where you set a jumper to determine the drive's role in your computer's operation. There are three basic jumper settings: Master, Slave and Cable Select.

If you look at the documentation that came with your HDD and ODDs, it will tell you how to set the jumpers on the drive. If you've lost that paperwork, go to the drive's manufacturer's webpage, click on "Support" and find a link to the documentation.

I prefer to set my drives manually with the jumpers, but you can buy IDE cables that will do it for you. If you have a Cable Select cable, one end will seat on the motherboard, the connector in the middle is the Slave and the connector on the other end is the Master. They're usually labled with pull tabs so you don't seat the Master connector on the motherboard.

Once you have all of this stuff set up in your case, go into the "Setup" in your BIOS the first time your computer boots and make sure that all of your settings are okay. You want to make sure that the HDD that is going to boot is the Master drive on one of your IDE channels and that the computer will look to boot from the HDD before it goes to the ODDs. You also generally want to set the Master ODD as the one with the faster read speed, but setting the ODD Master/Slave is less important than for the HDD. However, you need to make sure that each channel has a Master and a Slave; you computer will not function if they are not accounted for (or so I'm told; I've never tried).

That's the roundabout explanation of IDE Masters and Slaves. There will be a quiz next time. Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but football was on today.</STRONG>

Okay, I remember that about the master/slave thing from when I added the 40 gig hard drive, though it didn't explain near as much as you did. I'll have to take a look at the Optical drives to see if they're set right. Thanks for the help, HLD. Even if it doesn't fix the problem, I am learning a lot about how the computer is built, which will hopefully be helpful in the future, especially since I'm majoring in Computer Science.

what did you spill coffee on it or something?