GameBanshee Forums

I was just following a TV debate about the political situation in
Israel. Not that I am any competent.
An eye witness told a story, I'm not sure to report it totally right,
but it was something like that.

A kamikaze chooses a place, runs to a random israelian girl, hugs her firmly
and lets the both of them explode.
Blood, panic, confusion and all.
Relatives of the girl arrive. They insist crying that they want to see her
a last time.
Police stops them.
They go desperate and still insist.
At last one of the policemen tells them that only the hands are left
to see, and in separate places....

Only the hands..

I had to turn off the TV.
Now I visit the forum, and read that someone justifies these actions.
Better to go somewhere else, again

Originally posted by Littiz
I was just following a TV debate about the political situation in
Israel. Not that I am any competent.
An eye witness told a story, I'm not sure to report it totally right,
but it was something like that.

I think you should stop watching so much depressing news. . It isn't good for you.

A kamikaze chooses a place, runs to a random israelian girl, hugs her firmly
and lets the both of them explode.
Blood, panic, confusion and all.
Relatives of the girl arrive. They insist crying that they want to see her
a last time.
Police stops them.
They go desperate and still insist.
At last one of the policemen tells them that only the hands are left
to see, and in separate places....
Only the hands..[/QUOTE] When terrorists in Karachi took a car filled with innocent people and blew it up next to the US Embassy, their bodies were torn apart. Somebody's hand flew into one of my grandfather's friend's room.

I think all people would insist to see the dead body of a relative or somebody close. I don't think this is an exception. Most people cry when they see a dead relative.

Also I'm wondering why this never is talked about in the US? Do you have any links to this news. I haven't heard of people hugging anybody and blowing up.

Blood? Panic? What about this Russian hostage. 100+ Russians killed by Russians. Blood, much more panic. WTC- blood, panic. An Israeli missile flying into a building with one "terrorist" and 10 innocent people when the area is busy.

It happens both ways. Palestinians attack Israelis, Israelis attack Palestinians. Like Tom said, Israel is the conquerer. If my country were conquered I would take a gun and shoot anybody on the other side. Maybe not strap bombs around my body but I would resist, and I think most people would.


I had to turn off the TV.
Now I visit the forum, and read that someone justifies these actions.
Better to go somewhere else, again [/QUOTE] Like I said, the Palestians are the conquered ones. They can resist has much as they want, as far as I see it. The conquerers can't always win.

Do you believe that all fighting is unjustified? People die. I think you do need to come out of happy-doo-dah world. You can't cry for everybody who dies. People are horribly killed all the time. There's no point in crying over something. If you feel that it is so horrible, why not do something about it. I plan to do help out people in such situations, mostly in my home country, when I become an adult after college, or before or during.

That weren't news, it was a debate with guests.
It happened a few months ago. I had already heard it in fact, but not
in the details.
But you're right, it's just a story like many others.
That's the point.

Our lives are worth almost nothing, we last very short and very
few care when it ends.
This is my view of life.
But we can live honourably for the time we are here, without fear
and without becoming beasts.

To me, one who kills an innoncent that way (WHATEVER the cause, which
can be even a right cause) is a beast.
The real point is that if all started reasoning like me, these
situations would chease to exist (even "oppressors-side")

I should stop watching sad news, here I agree
It's not that I spend my life watching such things, at all, but
the thing that scares me is that we get used to horrible things
and we're no more impressed with time.
So I *want* to be still impressed.

Originally posted by Littiz
I was just following a TV debate about the political situation in
Israel. Not that I am any competent.
An eye witness told a story, I'm not sure to report it totally right,
but it was something like that.

A kamikaze chooses a place, runs to a random israelian girl, hugs her firmly
and lets the both of them explode.
Blood, panic, confusion and all.
Relatives of the girl arrive. They insist crying that they want to see her
a last time.
Police stops them.
They go desperate and still insist.
At last one of the policemen tells them that only the hands are left
to see, and in separate places....

Only the hands..

I had to turn off the TV.
Now I visit the forum, and read that someone justifies these actions.
Better to go somewhere else, again

I have not heard about the case you mention but undoubtedly the Palestinians have committed crimes. If you read my post you will see that I say explicitly that I do not condone all acts committed by the Palestinians.
I think that if it is possible the Palestinians should target the Israeli army and in many cases that is what they do.

I'm mostly in agreement with Thorin, although I have to say that we *have* to care about people dying, and we should do everything to oppose it.

Is it our nature to kill? Yes. But why should it not be part of our nature to hate it?

@Littiz

If you haven't noticed from recent times. We are all beasts. Just because we can put on clothes and pretend to be proper it doesn't seperate us too much. We can dream and pretend but as long as there are people out there who cant love and be free, people who have to give into thier animal instinct to kill and own. There will be death and killing and mass murder. Man isn't just a beast, mans the worst kind.

Everythings relative. Sure to you and me the idea of watching someone blow up and murder others for his country (in that innocent killing suicide bomber way) is so utterly horrible. But to them its what they have to do to survive as a people. Its a horrible thing, but no matter how many saturday morning cartoons we watch. We are a horrible people. Everyone sins, personally I may be a little thick headed to not worry too much about foriegn matters, but then again I dont really care. If I had a billion tears to shed, I think I would care. But I have but a few left, and Im keeping those for my friends. I've cried too much in the past years, Im tired of it. If you want to propose those men are beasts, I look at you and yell. Beast. We are all just flesh and bone, beasts who can dream and pretend. We are not special, we are not great. Thier is no greater purpose, stop worrying and start living.

Im a little *****y this morning, no coffee.

p.s. I love all of you. Dont get mad at me.

Egads

Originally posted by RandomThug
If you haven't noticed from recent times. We are all beasts. ...

I thought I had said pretty much all I wanted to say on this subject, but the above quote has dragged me back in.

So! To get back to fable: I'm curious: you suggest that the Chechens "Fight back as dirty and hard and viciously as they can, at home and especially aborad in Russia." So, are you then saying that you agree with their current tactics? I ask because you seem to take issue with my suggestion that the Chechens fight against the Russian military (indicating, I guess, that it is tantamount to rolling over and letting their culture die), but if you are suggesting something other than fighting the Russian military, then you must be suggesting taking the attack to the Russian people themselves ... or am I not understanding your position?

As for this talk of "beasts," RandomThug, and this idea that it is "in our nature to kill," Gaxx --- I couldn't disagree more. You both may be horrified and appalled by what you see around you (I know I often am), but to give into an entire philosophical frame of reference that dictates that humans will always slaughter and maim and there's just nothing anyone can do about it ... well, I would say that not only have you doomed yourself to a bitter and dismal sense of life, but you have also done NOTHING to change the human condition for the better.

Call me a dreamy idealist is you must, but I believe that humans are fully capable of living peacefully together. I wish more people thought so, too.

So! To get back to fable: I'm curious: you suggest that the Chechens "Fight back as dirty and hard and viciously as they can, at home and especially aborad in Russia." So, are you then saying that you agree with their current tactics? I ask because you seem to take issue with my suggestion that the Chechens fight against the Russian military (indicating, I guess, that it is tantamount to rolling over and letting their culture die), but if you are suggesting something other than fighting the Russian military, then you must be suggesting taking the attack to the Russian people themselves ... or am I not understanding your position?

Agree with their tactics? Let's be clear about what we mean, here. By agreeing, do you mean moral approval, tantamount to saying that what they did was a "good" thing? No, of course not. But if you ask me, what is the most likely route at this time to winning back some sovreignty, I'd suggest that what they're doing is not only the best route, but the only one. Hitting the Russian people in their sense of security is a good idea; the government can either back down and negotiate (a tactic that has been successful in Northern Ireland), or ratchet up the conflict; and there's nowhere left to go on that front, except concenrtation camps. Chechnya is at rock bottom. I know of no other solution except the one you offered, to sit on their morals and die out in the mountains.

Lets begin..

...It is in our nature to kill first off, second off we are just mammals.

You wanna be an idealist and say that we can live in a peacefull world and that I am doing nothing for reaching that goal. I ask you this. How would you imagine achieving (in any level) of that goal. I mean how would you get rid of those who plot against it? Without waging war of course, without maiming and killing of course. Diplomatic? You show me the man with the diplomacy to calm the hatred of so many countries towards my own, you tell me that it is a plausable goal this perfect society.

well, I would say that not only have you doomed yourself to a bitter and dismal sense of life, but you have also done NOTHING to change the human condition for the better.

I was raised in a home that left out foriegn politics and religion. My family focused on doing the best for our own family, and our own friends and our own community. While I shed no more tears for the wars of other countries, it is not because of my lack of compassion its because my efforts are all spent on the people I see everyday. I consider myself having a great and happy life in which I am aiding the human condition for the best. You want to cry about foriegn policy and imagine a perfect world in where everyones brainwashed on the same frequency (IMHO the only way it could ever be achieved). The only way you as a single person can change the world is starting small, the people you live with the community you drive through.

You want to stop war? Protest. To quote someone weasel quoted, peacewalks never won wars. As long as there are evil men, there needs to be good men to kill them before the evil men kill more. Look around, the world isn't getting better and all the previus attempts to stop war and such haven't worked. Dont call yourself an Idealist when your ideals fail.

If the Russians would simply let the Chechnyans become independent. The cost of the war is probably higher than what Chechnya would've provided for the Russians(I'm still not sure what ) Then all this unnecessary violence would be over. But for some reason, the Russians are wanting to shed blood, even to civilians it seems.

and..

of those creatures it is not the minority but the majority that are willing to aid that venture.

Originally posted by Koveras
If the Russians would simply let the Chechnyans become independent. The cost of the war is probably higher than what Chechnya would've provided for the Russians(I'm still not sure what ) Then all this unnecessary violence would be over. But for some reason, the Russians are wanting to shed blood, even to civilians it seems.

Chechnya has large oil fields, and there are major oil pipelines running through Chechnya.
During WWII, Hitler said in 1941 that if Maikop and Groszny (in Chechnya) could not be captured, the war would be lost. The Germans occupied the area, but after Stalingrad were pushed out again before they could take much benefit from the oilfields. After the war, a number of Chechens were punished for collaboration with the Germans.
The Chechens have resisted Russian rule since the mid 1800's. After the break up of the Soviet Union, they naturally restarted their fight for independence, but I presume the oil is of major importance to the Russians.

Re: Egads

Originally posted by Lazarus
...and this idea that it is "in our nature to kill," Gaxx --- I couldn't disagree more. You both may be horrified and appalled by what you see around you (I know I often am), but to give into an entire philosophical frame of reference that dictates that humans will always slaughter and maim and there's just nothing anyone can do about it ... well, I would say that not only have you doomed yourself to a bitter and dismal sense of life, but you have also done NOTHING to change the human condition for the better.

I think you should re-read my post. I said that while I think its in our nature to kill, I said we should strive to not kill. I think that while we can't stop it, I think we should try to.

A final word from crazy man Lazarus

@fable: wow. We almost agree!

@RandomThug and Gaxx: Both of you insist that killing is in human nature and this fact cannot be changed - but should be resisted. Look, either you believe this horrible impulse of ours exists and is irresistable, OR you believe that we can resist it successfully. RandomThug, I think you are exactly correct: what one person can and should do is start small - their own community, you say - their own personal belief system, I say. But I don't think you can change either your own community or your own philosophy if you first accept this idea that we are all just killing beasts. I myself have never killed anyone - have you? Of course when we see injustices in the world we wish to set them right, and of course this sometimes requires things like war (though I do not believe war is an unavoidable fact of human existence) -- but don't you see that it is precisely this which seperates us from the "beasts" you liken us to: we choose to fight, and hopefully, we choose to fight to bring about a more just world. I know of no other "beasts" that do so.

@Weasel: You know of no other animals which go to such lengths to invent new ways of killing? Again, you prove my point. No other species on this planet makes airplanes, skyscrapers, computers, or space shuttles, either. We absolutely, positively ARE unique among the life here on Earth. This uniqueness comes from (among other things) our ability to think, judge, and choose a course of action which will improve the world we live in. Sometimes we spend our time thinking up things like nuclear weapons; but I do not believe that the horror of such weapons is a defining characteristic of the human race - that we were able to even conceive and carry out such an undertaking, however, is.

OK. Now, I think I really have said all I can on this subject. Back to school/work/life. Pip-pip!

Man is the only animal that blushes, or has reason to. -Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)

Originally posted by fable
Man is the only animal that blushes, or has reason to. -Samuel Clemens (Mark Twain)

So true